I can't find any separate discussion topic for the "Recommended for newcomers" (hereafter "RFN") flag, so posting here.
It appears as if we are once again losing the functional purpose of all these different signs of differentiation and confusing them for regalia/badges of appreciation. Which they are not.
1. Inheritance.
I expressly disagree that any improvement should automatically inherit an RFN flag just because its predecessor had it. Even movies aiming for the exact same goal set may look nothing alike. Worse so when they have different goals to begin with (I will discuss the examples further below).
2. Obsoletion and the list of RFN movies.
This is mainly a continuation of the above, but an obsolete movie deemed RFN should retain its flag unless it actually suits the new movie better than the old. If a new Ferrari comes out, it doesn't make your minivan worse at driving kids to school or hauling loads. Such movies, despite being obsolete, should still be present in the Newcomer Corner. Or they should be improved in ways that don't sacrifice their newcomer-friendly values.
3. Goal choice.
RFN and Star-tier have a very strong overlap that tricks people into thinking of recommended movies as a secret better-than-Star 4th tier. I believe this isn't exactly a sensible, let alone desirable situation. They have to be high-quality, well-received, and show the advantages and benefits of employing tool-assistance, yes. But at the same time they have to cater to the circumstances, mindset, and behavior of newcomers rather than your core audience.
Imagine a person who got here by following a link found on the first TAS they've watched, or just randomly on the internet. At this point they proceed in one of the two ways:
1) they search for one of their favorite games directly or watch whatever captures their immediate attention on the front page, in which case they will likely keep missing the Newcomer Corner list entirely until they're no longer newcomers (or until they leave the site for good);
2) they actually locate the Newcomers Corner first (which I don't believe happens all that often, and that is a problem for another discussion).
So let's assume the second scenario. There's a list of movies, and every one of them is a sort of an "elevator pitch" for TASVideos. You can't arrange them in a playlist, so every item on the list has to serve its purpose as well as any other, as there might be no second chance. You want to impress them—but not overwhelm them. You want to surprise them—but not confuse them. You want to keep their interest throughout—rather than at any specific spots. You want the action to be varied without any particular strategy/trick/glitch overstaying its welcome. Finally, you want something that serves all of these purposes without regard to the level of knowledge the audience possesses about the game. And your ultimate goal with all this is to make the viewer want to see more.
This entails the following for the RFN flag candidates:
0) they should be run past actual newcomers to see if the idea works at all;
1) game itself should be aesthetically pleasing or capitalizing on nostalgia value enough so that seeing or hearing it isn't a detriment to the experience;
2) they should be reasonably short to avoid boredom or fatigue (5–15 minutes is ideal, 15–30 okayish, anything over 30 minutes is seriously pushing it—you don't want any of the items on the list skipped due to not having enough free time to watch something they don't yet know if they'll enjoy);
3) they should clearly identify as tool-assisted without having to make a second guess, and as such portray many TAS-only scenarios showcasing the required precision;
4) they should contain various different strategies/tricks/glitches to avoid feeling like it's the same thing going on repeatedly;
5) they should contain fun/clever/impressive stylistic decisions wherever possible.
With these six criteria we move on to the current list. I have intentionally numbered them starting at 0 because #0 is the only criterion that I cannot discuss compliance with.
4. The current list.[2320] SNES Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island "100%" by Baxter, Carl_Sagan & NxCy in 1:59:35.12
This is a great example of failing criterion #2 spectacularly. Even I had to finish it in two sittings because the action was so dense and there were so many things I had to pay attention to, despite being one of the most vocal supporters of the run during its creation. This run is as great as it is physically tiring to watch. I never had a chance to notice it from WIPs because the WIPs ended before I could be overwhelmed.
That being said, it should probably stay on the list exactly because the good things in it are non-area-specific and work even in small portions. The first 10-15 minutes fully convey the message, so whatever you think of them will likely extend to the rest of the run.
[2741] Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles by Aglar & marzojr in 26:53.06
There's a very good reason why my entertainment rating for this branch started at 10 with nitsuja's first attempt and gradually arrived at 9 by now: because every single trick is being gradually replaced by zipping and Tails-facilitated OOB travel. They are nowhere near as interesting to look at as good old TAS-precise platforming. In my opinion, this flag should either be moved to an earlier iteration of this branch or to some other run of S3&K or S2 entirely (although by this time all Sonic games are just one huge zip).
[1851] N64 The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask by MrGrunz in 1:29:32.02
I haven't watched this run so I won't comment on it. My unwillingness to watch it is probably not an indication of anything. But ratings and comments seem to suggest that the overwhelming positive response comes from the fans of the game, with the rest either not watching it at all or being subdued in their reaction.
[1649] NES Mega Man 2 by aglasscage, finalfighter, pirohiko & Shinryuu in 23:48.51
Nice pick. Glitches are sufficiently varied, length is good, there's nice music and many TAS-only tricks. I was never nostalgic about this game (I only played it very briefly before watching a TAS for the first time), but I was sufficiently entertained.
[2078] SNES Super Metroid "Reverse Boss Order" by Saturn in 46:42.38
Okay pick. The length is rather imposing, and the goal may be hard to comprehend without prior knowledge of the game, but every minute of the action is entertaining enough in its own right and screams TAS-level precision. I'd say it's one of the more newcomer-friendly runs of Metroid series made on arguably the best game in the series, on par with the in-game run.
[2016] N64 Super Mario 64 "0 stars" by snark, Kaylee, sonicpacker, MICKEY_Vis11189 & ToT in 05:02.25
Excellent pick. The action is fast, varied, there are many TAS-only tricks, and it ends before overstaying its welcome. I'm not a fan of this game at all, but this run is brilliant and worth every minute of my time.
[2995] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "all souls" by Fz-Last, alkdc & Pike in 18:45.26
Compared to its predecessor, I find it barely acceptable at best. It's very hard to follow without intimate knowledge of the game, boss fights take either too long or too short, much of the soul usage variety is gone, one of the best fights is skipped, and general character progression dynamics is all over the place. It's most certainly a TAS for the fans in the first place. It also contains at least two known unimplemented improvements as well as a couple more potential improvements. I believe the RFN flag should either remain at the previous movie or be transferred to the warpless any% which has almost none of the problems while containing virtually all the same benefits as this and the warpless all-souls.
[1590] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "warps" by Lord_Tom, Mitjitsu & Tompa in 10:25.60
Good pick. Crazy popular game, there is nice variety and a ton of TAS-only tricks in the run, and it's short enough.
[1917] Windows Cave Story "best ending" by nitsuja in 50:10.30
Okay pick. Again, the length is about to fail criterion #2, and the run only picks up pace upon reaching the machine gun 17 minutes in. Nothing really spectacular is going on before that. But the game is really well-designed and has incredibly good music, which helps alleviate the initial boredom, and it has author's commentary as well, so I believe it should stay so far.
[1248] SNES Family Feud "playaround" by Heisanevilgenius in 06:46.71
Decent pick. There's nothing TAS-exclusive aside from input speed, but it's a nice playaround that, in my opinion, is very good at making the audience want to see more.
[1546] NES Gimmick! "100%" by Aglar & Hotarubi in 07:44.45
Excellent pick. The game has a lot of room for tool-assisted precision to shine, and the run uses all of it spectacularly, the run is short, action-packed, the game has excellent music and cute graphics.
[2676] NES Super Mario Bros. "warpless, walkathon" by Mars608 & HappyLee in 25:19.23
Has any newcomer ever watched all of it? Not only the flag; the existence of this movie and the fact that a shorter branch was sacrificed for it confuses me. The warped version was a neat novelty run and was good because in the six minutes of its runtime it could show pretty much every known way to overcome the in-game obstacles without pressing B. What exactly is being accomplished by having a movie four times its length escapes me. It doesn't contain four times the tricks. It doesn't even contain four times the amount of situations previously considered impassable without B. It can't allure even all the people who love Mario, judging from the sheer number of rating votes on it and the fact that it has the poorest entertainment rating of all SMB movies at 7.2. 7.2 is barely above average and probably below median as far as site-wide rating statistics goes.
5. Movies absent from the current list.
Some movies, including a few obsolete ones, that I believe are quite fit for being recommended for newcomers.
[2715] Windows VVVVVV "20 trinkets, no death mode" by Masterjun in 17:33.77: although not always easily distinguishable from the current unassisted runs (they are actually very very good), it has everything a good newcomer movie should have: aesthetics, optimization, style, excellent music and visuals, and decent length.
[2994] GC Super Monkey Ball "Expert through Master" by byrz & CyclopsDragon in 12:55.18: I don't see why not. It's a good, reasonably short game, the challenge is immediately understandable, and solutions are extremely tight and surprising. Later on the flag could be given to a high score run when it's available.
[1438] SNES International Superstar Soccer Deluxe "playaround" by Marcokarty in 15:24.38: Amazing playaround. Zero game knowledge and only a very rudimentary understanding of soccer rules is necessary to enjoy it. My mother, a soccer fan, enjoyed it a lot—and I assure you, she never really played anything other than Minesweeper. If this isn't telling, I don't know what is.
[711] NES Gradius by adelikat in 10:52.35: Remember how this was among the first picks to show verified at AGDQ? For a good reason. It's short, extremely entertaining, shows unconventional TAS-only behavior and whatnot. It's also a popular game of an easy-to-understand genre.
[1103] NES Mega Man by Deign in 15:29.27: on par with the MM2 run, probably even better in terms of length and the tricks used. Not as broken as the newer one, and is better because of it.
[1595] Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles by nitsuja, upthorn & marzojr in 32:05.52: the last "perfect" S3&K run which somewhat maintained the balance between zips and everything else and kept all the best stylistics from the earlier movies in my opinion. Optimization-wise it has held up very well, at least for people not intimately familiar with S3&K TASing.
[1779] Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog 2 by FuzZerd, Sonikkustar, upthorn & Aglar in 18:42.37 or [2037] Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog 2 by Aglar in 17:51.60: both are fun, reasonably short, and definitely easier to follow than S3&K run while retaining its pace and most of the WTF factor. I find #1779 to be the better of the two for the reasons already discussed.
Thoughts? Opinions? Pizza rolls?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
and now for an equally long rebuttal. Sorry readers.
moozooh wrote:
It appears as if we are once again losing the functional purpose of all these different signs of differentiation and confusing them for regalia/badges of appreciation. Which they are not.
That's a good point, they should certainly be more tailored to newcomers. Although there is quite a lot of overlap between them.
moozooh wrote:
[2320] SNES Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island "100%" by Baxter, Carl_Sagan & NxCy in 1:59:35.12
This is a great example of failing criterion #2 spectacularly. Even I had to finish it in two sittings because the action was so dense and there were so many things I had to pay attention to, despite being one of the most vocal supporters of the run during its creation. This run is as great as it is physically tiring to watch. I never had a chance to notice it from WIPs because the WIPs ended before I could be overwhelmed.
That being said, it should probably stay on the list exactly because the good things in it are non-area-specific and work even in small portions. The first 10-15 minutes fully convey the message, so whatever you think of them will likely extend to the rest of the run.
It took them over 3 years, it has fantastic tricks, and it stays surprising. If you can watch a 150 minute movie in theaters, you can watch this.
moozooh wrote:
[2741] Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles by Aglar & marzojr in 26:53.06
There's a very good reason why my entertainment rating for this branch started at 10 with nitsuja's first attempt and gradually arrived at 9 by now: because every single trick is being gradually replaced by zipping and Tails-facilitated OOB travel. They are nowhere near as interesting to look at as good old TAS-precise platforming. In my opinion, this flag should either be moved to an earlier iteration of this branch or to some other run of S3&K or S2 entirely (although by this time all Sonic games are just one huge zip).
But that's the reason WHY it's recommended. It doesn't resemble normal Sonic 3 gameplay at all, which is the whole point. The movie it obsoletes is basically the same. Picking an obsoleted movie to represent the site is stupid, since it's in the past.
moozooh wrote:
[1851] N64 The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask by MrGrunz in 1:29:32.02
I haven't watched this run so I won't comment on it. My unwillingness to watch it is probably not an indication of anything. But ratings and comments seem to suggest that the overwhelming positive response comes from the fans of the game, with the rest either not watching it at all or being subdued in their reaction.
It's good. Also took 3 years to make.
moozooh wrote:
[1649] NES Mega Man 2 by aglasscage, finalfighter, pirohiko & Shinryuu in 23:48.51
Nice pick. Glitches are sufficiently varied, length is good, there's nice music and many TAS-only tricks. I was never nostalgic about this game (I only played it very briefly before watching a TAS for the first time), but I was sufficiently entertained.
k.
moozooh wrote:
[2078] SNES Super Metroid "Reverse Boss Order" by Saturn in 46:42.38
Okay pick. The length is rather imposing, and the goal may be hard to comprehend without prior knowledge of the game, but every minute of the action is entertaining enough in its own right and screams TAS-level precision. I'd say it's one of the more newcomer-friendly runs of Metroid series made on arguably the best game in the series, on par with the in-game run.
the goal is literally "reverse boss order". So you fight the bosses. In reverse order. Elsewise I agree, it's good.
moozooh wrote:
I find the 70 stars no BLJ more impressive, and I'm not a fan of Mario 64. But I do think it's a good newcomer movie.
moozooh wrote:
[2995] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "all souls" by Fz-Last, alkdc & Pike in 18:45.26
Compared to its predecessor, I find it barely acceptable at best. It's very hard to follow without intimate knowledge of the game, boss fights take either too long or too short, much of the soul usage variety is gone, one of the best fights is skipped, and general character progression dynamics is all over the place. It's most certainly a TAS for the fans in the first place. It also contains at least two known unimplemented improvements as well as a couple more potential improvements. I believe the RFN flag should either remain at the previous movie or be transferred to the warpless any% which has almost none of the problems while containing virtually all the same benefits as this and the warpless all-souls.
warpless any% is boring, plus I don't think we should newcomer obsoleted movies. It doesn't represent the site anymore, as much as you'd like to believe it does. The 'longest' fight is less then 30 seconds. Unless you have ADHD, I don't see how that's a problem.
I say we wait for more reception to come in for this movie, it's too new. If its ratings stay relatively high, why not have it?
moozooh wrote:
Agreed. Important to the site, and a good introduction movie.
moozooh wrote:
[1917] Windows Cave Story "best ending" by nitsuja in 50:10.30
Okay pick. Again, the length is about to fail criterion #2, and the run only picks up pace upon reaching the machine gun 17 minutes in. Nothing really spectacular is going on before that. But the game is really well-designed and has incredibly good music, which helps alleviate the initial boredom, and it has author's commentary as well, so I believe it should stay so far.
It's an interesting movie that is somewhat slow paced, but gets faster paced. You're basically complaining what you complimented the old Aria of Sorrow movie having, a progression of skills.
moozooh wrote:
I disagree, coming up with utter nonsense in 1 second and getting it accepted makes it totally TAS-exclusive.
moozooh wrote:
[1546] NES Gimmick! "100%" by Aglar & Hotarubi in 07:44.45
Excellent pick. The game has a lot of room for tool-assisted precision to shine, and the run uses all of it spectacularly, the run is short, action-packed, the game has excellent music and cute graphics.
Agreed.
moozooh wrote:
[2676] NES Super Mario Bros. "warpless, walkathon" by Mars608 & HappyLee in 25:19.23
Has any newcomer ever watched all of it? Not only the flag; the existence of this movie and the fact that a shorter branch was sacrificed for it confuses me. The warped version was a neat novelty run and was good because in the six minutes of its runtime it could show pretty much every known way to overcome the in-game obstacles without pressing B. What exactly is being accomplished by having a movie four times its length escapes me. It doesn't contain four times the tricks. It doesn't even contain four times the amount of situations previously considered impassable without B. It can't allure even all the people who love Mario, judging from the sheer number of rating votes on it and the fact that it has the poorest entertainment rating of all SMB movies at 7.2. 7.2 is barely above average and probably below median as far as site-wide rating statistics goes.
It shows what TASes can do. Remember, a walkathon was believed to be impossible before a TAS of it was made.
5. Movies absent from the current list.
Some movies, including a few obsolete ones, that I believe are quite fit for being recommended for newcomers.
moozooh wrote:
[2715] Windows VVVVVV "20 trinkets, no death mode" by Masterjun in 17:33.77: although not always easily distinguishable from the current unassisted runs (they are actually very very good), it has everything a good newcomer movie should: aesthetics, optimization, style, excellent music and visuals, and decent length.
see you just gave the reason why it shouldn't be recommended. It's too similar to the unassisted runs, as good as it is. Newcomer movies should be showing cool TAS-only stuff.
moozooh wrote:
[1438] SNES International Superstar Soccer Deluxe "playaround" by Marcokarty in 15:24.38: Amazing playaround. Zero game knowledge and only a very rudimentary understanding of soccer rules is necessary to enjoy it. My mother, a soccer fan, enjoyed it a lot—and I assure you, she never really played anything other than Minesweeper. If this isn't telling, I don't know what is.
Agreed.
moozooh wrote:
[711] NES Gradius by adelikat in 10:52.35: Remember how this was among the first picks to show verified at AGDQ? For a good reason. It's short, extremely entertaining, shows unconventional TAS-only behavior and whatnot. It's also a popular game of an easy-to-understand genre.
Eh.
moozooh wrote:
[1103] NES Mega Man by Deign in 15:29.27: on par with the MM2 run, probably even better in terms of length and the tricks used. Not as broken as the newer one, and is better because of it.
Actually no the newer movie is more interesting for the simple reason BECAUSE it's more broken, but also shows all of the game basically.
moozooh wrote:
[1595] Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles by nitsuja, upthorn & marzojr in 32:05.52: the last "perfect" S3&K run which somewhat maintained the balance of zips and everything else and kept all the best stylistics from the earlier movies in my opinion. Optimization-wise it has held up very well, at least for people not intimately familiar with S3&K TASing.
Obviously it wasn't optimized very well if it got obsoleted. With the same zip tricks.
moozooh wrote:
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
moozooh wrote:
4. The current list.[2320] SNES Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island "100%" by Baxter, Carl_Sagan & NxCy in 1:59:35.12
This is a great example of failing criterion #2 spectacularly. Even I had to finish it in two sittings because the action was so dense and there were so many things I had to pay attention to, despite being one of the most vocal supporters of the run during its creation. This run is as great as it is physically tiring to watch. I never had a chance to notice it from WIPs because the WIPs ended before I could be overwhelmed.
That being said, it should probably stay on the list exactly because the good things in it are non-area-specific and work even in small portions. The first 10-15 minutes fully convey the message, so whatever you think of them will likely extend to the rest of the run.
Keep it. The RTA community is hype as hell over SMW2 thanks in part to the runners being so charismatic and energetic during GDQs. It's a staple game and a lot of people would definitely sit there and enjoy how intense the TAS is. Barring that, replace it with the original Super Mario World and watch as a thousand 14 year olds come in and capitalize the J in Masterjun.
[2741] Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles by Aglar & marzojr in 26:53.06
There's a very good reason why my entertainment rating for this branch started at 10 with nitsuja's first attempt and gradually arrived at 9 by now: because every single trick is being gradually replaced by zipping and Tails-facilitated OOB travel. They are nowhere near as interesting to look at as good old TAS-precise platforming. In my opinion, this flag should either be moved to an earlier iteration of this branch or to some other run of S3&K or S2 entirely (although by this time all Sonic games are just one huge zip).
I'll get more into this later, but I say this should be replaced with a different Sonic run, possibly one of the no ultra-spindash Advance games. I see the reason for this being recommended to newcomers: It shows off things like TAS precision and utilizing zip glitches to get to the end of stages as fast as possible... but now we have the new Aria of Sorrow all souls run for that, so it'd be better to show off a popular game that still goes ridiculously fast without using zips: Only precision. Something that clearly can't be done in real time, of course.
[1851] N64 The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask by MrGrunz in 1:29:32.02
I haven't watched this run so I won't comment on it. My unwillingness to watch it is probably not an indication of anything. But ratings and comments seem to suggest that the overwhelming positive response comes from the fans of the game, with the rest either not watching it at all or being subdued in their reaction.
OoT and Majora have both reached a point where RTA play is getting much closer to TAS levels, so it might be time to retire this in favor of something else... I don't know, maybe I'm biased against the games or something even though they're great. Call it Super Metroid Syndrome or something, where the runs are just too popular for me to really handle why everyone loves them so much.
[1649] NES Mega Man 2 by aglasscage, finalfighter, pirohiko & Shinryuu in 23:48.51
Nice pick. Glitches are sufficiently varied, length is good, there's nice music and many TAS-only tricks. I was never nostalgic about this game (I only played it very briefly before watching a TAS for the first time), but I was sufficiently entertained.
Yeah, keep it. Either that or replace it with the upcoming improvement to the original Mega Man. There needs to be one there, and I trend toward the more ridiculous runs for newcomers in general.
[2078] SNES Super Metroid "Reverse Boss Order" by Saturn in 46:42.38
Okay pick. The length is rather imposing, and the goal may be hard to comprehend without prior knowledge of the game, but every minute of the action is entertaining enough in its own right and screams TAS-level precision. I'd say it's one of the more newcomer-friendly runs of Metroid series made on arguably the best game in the series, on par with the in-game run.
This needs to be kept, and the tag needs to be inherited for each successive improvement. It's one of the site's defining runs, in my opinion.
[2995] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "all souls" by Fz-Last, alkdc & Pike in 18:45.26
Compared to its predecessor, I find it barely acceptable at best. It's very hard to follow without intimate knowledge of the game, boss fights take either too long or too short, much of the soul usage variety is gone, one of the best fights is skipped, and general character progression dynamics is all over the place. It's most certainly a TAS for the fans in the first place. It also contains at least two known unimplemented improvements as well as a couple more potential improvements. I believe the RFN flag should either remain at the previous movie or be transferred to the warpless any% which has almost none of the problems while containing virtually all the same benefits as this and the warpless all-souls.
I feel a headache coming on already.
I'm completely in favor of keeping the tag here. What I want to see in the newcomer tag are things that are absolutely mindblowing: I think "hard to follow" is actually a plus in a lot of cases! Maybe I'm weird for thinking this, but this would honestly be the first run I show people who are brand new to the idea of TASing. The run exemplifies the art just as well as the previous all souls runs did.
You tell someone that a "modern" game with a lot of random elements was beaten 100% in less than 20 minutes and they'll think you're crazy, then you show them this run and they'll wonder what they just watched. That's how I came to the site: I didn't think any JRPG could be beaten in less than 20 minutes, let alone a few hours, and then I saw that this Dragon Warrior run existed and I've been hooked on the site ever since.
The run being insanely fast paced and clearly broken makes it even better for newcomers, because it gives them a ton of questions, and asking questions is important. "How did they do that? What just happened? Where do I learn to do things like this?" They start off with an interest in the community, they take the time to learn what's going on, and we end up with great potential.
So it needs to keep the tag, in my opinion.
Morimoto's original run is pretty much why the site exists in the first place, isn't it? I don't think I need to say more than that. Keep it.
[1917] Windows Cave Story "best ending" by nitsuja in 50:10.30
Okay pick. Again, the length is about to fail criterion #2, and the run only picks up pace upon reaching the machine gun 17 minutes in. Nothing really spectacular is going on before that. But the game is really well-designed and has incredibly good music, which helps alleviate the initial boredom, and it has author's commentary as well, so I believe it should stay so far.
I love this run. Yeah, it starts out a bit slow, but it's one of those runs that shows off very clearly how something seemingly trivial can be abused to the fullest extent. I think those are my favorite runs on the site, actually, when something is obtained and then the entire scope of the run changes drastically from there on out as it's broken in half by this single, seemingly normal item or ability.
This is one of the most popular runs on the site in general, and it's absolutely essential as a recommendation to show people something: TASes aren't just about being fast. They're about being entertaining, doing the unexpected and having it still come out right in the end. It's not the most technical movie out there, but it's obvious that the parser is broken and it leads to hilarious results.
[1546] NES Gimmick! "100%" by Aglar & Hotarubi in 07:44.45
Excellent pick. The game has a lot of room for tool-assisted precision to shine, and the run uses all of it spectacularly, the run is short, action-packed, the game has excellent music and cute graphics.
It's not a very well-known game, but I think that works in its favor. Watching some of the earlier publications was an eye-opener for me, personally, so definitely keep it.
[2676] NES Super Mario Bros. "warpless, walkathon" by Mars608 & HappyLee in 25:19.23
Has any newcomer ever watched all of it? Not only the flag; the existence of this movie and the fact that a shorter branch was sacrificed for it confuses me. The warped version was a neat novelty run and was good because in the six minutes of its runtime it could show pretty much every known way to overcome the in-game obstacles without pressing B. What exactly is being accomplished by having a movie four times its length escapes me. It doesn't contain four times the tricks. It doesn't even contain four times the amount of situations previously considered impassable without B. It can't allure even all the people who love Mario, judging from the sheer number of rating votes on it and the fact that it has the poorest entertainment rating of all SMB movies at 7.2. 7.2 is barely above average and probably below median as far as site-wide rating statistics goes.
The recent max coins run might be a better choice here, but I still think this run holds up if only because of the ridiculous and long-researched 4-3 strategy that made the run impossible for the longest time. Four times longer, sure, but that one strategy is enough to make up for 4 brand new tricks.
5. Movies absent from the current list.
Some movies, including a few obsolete ones, that I believe are quite fit for being recommended for newcomers.
[2715] Windows VVVVVV "20 trinkets, no death mode" by Masterjun in 17:33.77: although not always easily distinguishable from the current unassisted runs (they are actually very very good), it has everything a good newcomer movie should: aesthetics, optimization, style, excellent music and visuals, and decent length.
Eh, I'm not so sure here. It doesn't have the sort of charm that other newcomer movies have. It's not too popular of a game, and as you said it's not much different from the unassisted runs.
I'm gonna have to go with the same thing here. There's one amazingly impressive strat and the rest is just optimizing what RTA runners have been figuring out and doing for a while. It deserves the Star, yeah, but I wouldn't really recommend it to a newcomer, especially one who's already familiar with the RTA runs.
[1438] SNES International Superstar Soccer Deluxe "playaround" by Marcokarty in 15:24.38: Amazing playaround. Zero game knowledge and only a very rudimentary understanding of soccer rules is necessary to enjoy it. My mother, a soccer fan, enjoyed it a lot—and I assure you, she never really played anything other than Minesweeper. If this isn't telling, I don't know what is.
Absolutely this. This more than almost anything else. This is the run that you show people who don't know much about video games in general, let alone speedrunning or TASing.
[711] NES Gradius by adelikat in 10:52.35: Remember how this was among the first picks to show verified at AGDQ? For a good reason. It's short, extremely entertaining, shows unconventional TAS-only behavior and whatnot. It's also a popular game of an easy-to-understand genre.
What shocks me is that this isn't already recommended. I thought it was?
This is the first run I think of when I hear people talk about TASing and art and being entertaining during autoscrollers/wait times. Why isn't this recommended? Seriously. This needs it. It's practically a meme at this point due to the AGDQ '14 mishaps.
[1103] NES Mega Man by Deign in 15:29.27: on par with the MM2 run, probably even better in terms of length and the tricks used. Not as broken as the newer one, and is better because of it.
I still maintain that broken = better for newcomers.
*shrug* As I said earlier, I'd recommend one of the shorter Advance runs or something like that over the Genesis games. They've all gotten too zippy, and RTA's started to take after them, so showing what you can do without any insane zipping is a huge boon.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
i think we should have one of each demonstration,one ACE,one superplay,one any% glitched as hell,one any% just pure optimization that looks clearly inhuman,one of each genre..
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto.
TAS i'm interested:
Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS?
i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
i think we should have one of each demonstration,one ACE,one superplay,one any% glitched as hell,one any% just pure optimization that looks clearly inhuman..
No.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter
- some loser
RPG games are rather lacking, so I recommend http://tasvideos.org/1482M.html Dragon Warrior [1], which is short, and shows how a normally long RPG can be beat quickly using luck manipulation.
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Location: Northern California
dunnius wrote:
RPG games are rather lacking, so I recommend http://tasvideos.org/1482M.html Dragon Warrior [1], which is short, and shows how a normally long RPG can be beat quickly using luck manipulation.
I agree, if only because the run it obsoleted was my introduction to the site (as I mentioned previously). People have this opinion of RPGs as being long, grindy, and full of random encounters, and the Dragon Warrior 1 TAS is absolutely none of that. Definitely a recommendation I can get behind.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
i think we should have one of each demonstration,one ACE,one superplay,one any% glitched as hell,one any% just pure optimization that looks clearly inhuman..
No.
care to elaborate?there's a lot of repetition in the list and i mostly agree with moozooh's views.
http://tasvideos.org/2098M.html
fighting nominee for newcomers
or maybe the tekken ones with SEPPUKU and yoshi all the time
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto.
TAS i'm interested:
Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS?
i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
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Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
I've found that most people will get antsy if you make them sit through anything longer than about 15 or 20 minutes - it's too easy to get saturated. For example, unless you're a huge fan of Yoshi's Island I don't think sitting through a two-hour movie is going to go well, no matter how impressive it is as a TAS. Runs like that are great for fans of a series, but are they really the best for the general newcomer audience? I agree with moozooh's criteria and would actually go further and say we should aim for no more than 20 minutes max.
For what it's worth, here are actual TASes I have shown people when I want to introduce them to the concept:
[2016] N64 Super Mario 64 (USA) "0 stars" in 5:02.25 by snark, Kyman, sonicpacker, Mickey/VIS & ToT
Fast, slick, packed with glitches, and tons of unexpected moments. One of the most accessible TASes since everyone's played the game, the tricks are broken but understandable (you can see what's going on in a backwards long jump, for example), and the gameplay itself isn't broken.
[1438] SNES International Superstar Soccer Deluxe (USA) in 15:24.38 by Marcokarty
The run is super funny and shows a complete mastery of the game to the point of toying with it. 15 minutes is the perfect length for this kind of concept.
[726] NES Mega Man (JPN/USA) in 15:38.07 by Bisqwit & Finalfighter
Yes, this is one of the older versions. For me this has the right balance of glitches and gameplay, compared to later versions which skip a bit too much. It's got good pacing both in regular gameplay (weapon progression) and glitch use (fewer glitches early on, leading to crazy glitch stuff in the Wily levels), and is one of the best examples of something that looks perfect.
[711] NES Gradius (JPN) in 10:52.35 by adelikat
This one plays out really nicely and is another example of showing off and toying with the game. Nobody I know has played this game but it's super easy to understand this TAS and is great entertainment.
There are two types of movies that I prefer to show people when I am introducing them to TASing: superhuman skill, and completely breaking the game. I think that movies of these two categories have been suggested a lot above, so I won't comment on what I would present to people; suffice it to say several of the movies mentioned are my go tos.
I do want to contest the point about shorter movies being better for new viewers. If the viewer is engaged, they will likely sit through something that is a couple of hours long (or come back to it after watching some of it). The viewer is also more likely to watch something they have an interest in (someone who loves SM64 is probably more likely to sit through the 120 stars run than someone who does not care for the game).
The question that needs to be asked (and maybe voted on..?) is, for each movie that is presented as newbie-worthy, "Is this something I would want someone with no experience in TAS to see?" Unfortunately, that question trends toward the more popular games and more popular series (Mario, Sonic, Metroid, Gradius, Mega Man, ...) and farther away from niche games, but there are some obvious 'Yes' votes in the list above, some 'Meh', and a couple of 'No's too.
I'm sure that, as a community, we could single out a few more games that are newbie-worthy in not too much time at all.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
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Out of all the Super Mario 64 TASes that exist, the one that I sat through and watched over and over was the 70 Star one.
120 felt too long and dropped pace (for me) at certain points.
0 star, is 0 star, not much to comment until the newer one comes in to obsolete it.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Thanks for starting an interesting topic, Moozooh.
When I've tried to introduce TASes to someone who doesn't know about them, I've usually shown the SM64 0 stars run, Brain Age, Family Feud or some Mortal Kombat-playaround. These runs have elicited laughter from the viewers, so that should be a good sign.
I agree that a newcomer TAS should not require prior knowledge of TASes or even the presented games, and that the length of the TAS does matter. Not being a Nintendo-fan, I find watching longer runs of classic Nintendo-games like Majora's Mask or Yoshi's Island 100% slightly unbearable even though I understand TASes and can appreciate the technical value of these runs. I imagine it would be even worse for a newcomer trying to dig into these runs.
I think those are my favorite runs on the site, actually, when something is obtained and then the entire scope of the run changes drastically from there on out as it's broken in half by this single, seemingly normal item or ability.
If you look at their rating pages you'll see how many of them are my favorite runs as well, this one not an exception. It's not until I start watching them with somebody else and realize that by the time we get to the interesting bits the interest is waning, the person starts going about their own business, looking at the phone, etc.. In fact, doing something together with an actual newcomer is very often an eye-opening experience (well, at least if your ability to be empathetic and feel the mood is developed to any extent).
Samsara wrote:
The recent max coins run might be a better choice here, but I still think this run holds up if only because of the ridiculous and long-researched 4-3 strategy that made the run impossible for the longest time. Four times longer, sure, but that one strategy is enough to make up for 4 brand new tricks.
Maybe it should be presented in some other way then? At some point we had a TASVideos showreel, which is actually a really fucking good video that is hard to find for some reason. The 4-3 strategy seems like a good pick for something like that. It doesn't make up for 25 minutes of incredible tedium. It's times like this when I wish the concept demo category was still around: TAS 4-3 only, show the cool stuff, skip the boring stuff, everyone's happy.
Samsara wrote:
They've all gotten too zippy, and RTA's started to take after them, so showing what you can do without any insane zipping is a huge boon.
Ten thousand times yes. It's also why broken isn't always better. Things tend to be broken in ways that are too similar to one another, which homogenizes them, and this is the result.
grassini wrote:
i think we should have one of each demonstration,one ACE,one superplay,one any% glitched as hell,one any% just pure optimization that looks clearly inhuman,one of each genre..
This won't work very well because you can't choose which videos will be watched, so you run the risk of skewing presentation way too far to one particular side. They all need to be at least somewhat balanced in what they're intended to portray: precision, glitches, planning, style.
Invariel wrote:
I'm sure that, as a community, we could single out a few more games that are newbie-worthy in not too much time at all.
The problem is it tends to steer into pure speculation. Look at the movies mentioned by Chef Stef: it absolutely makes sense and is actually tested on newcomers. This is something that should be the single most important criterion when choosing movies for a representative list published on the site: test your ideas for newcomers on goddamn newcomers. I've had absolutely great feedback for thesetwo runs I have shown to several of my friends (neither of whom are aficionados), for instance. The first one because of incredibly well-thought of stylistic decisions and gameplay variety, the latter because the game is so ridiculous in the first place.
AKheon wrote:
some Mortal Kombat-playaround
Oh yeah, absolutely! I was even thinking about them but didn't remember which one I used to show that was the funniest of them all. It couldn't have been the current half-hour UMK3 run, because it's very long.
Brain Age could probably be a decent pick, too.
arandomgameTASer wrote:
and now for an equally long rebuttal. Sorry readers.
Interesting rebuttal: you seem to agree with the points in my post even more than you disagree with them! I wish all the rebuttals to my long-winded posts were like that (instead of just most of them) but I also wish it was an actual rebuttal with proper logic and actual counterarguments instead of "no" and "eh".
arandomgameTASer wrote:
It took them over 3 years
[...]
Also took 3 years to make.
Why would anyone care, newcomers in particular? It doesn't make it more tool-assisted, or more entertaining for that matter.
arandomgameTASer wrote:
If you can watch a 150 minute movie in theaters, you can watch this.
Because every 150-minute movie looks like a Yoshi's Island 100%. Got it.
arandomgameTASer wrote:
But that's the reason WHY it's recommended. It doesn't resemble normal Sonic 3 gameplay at all, which is the whole point.
Neither did Nitsuja's original runs really. But they still had gameplay instead of endless zipping in between cutscenes and boss fights.
Has anyone asked any newcomers which kind of gameplay they prefer? Has anyone ever asked newcomers anything at all?
arandomgameTASer wrote:
Picking an obsoleted movie to represent the site is stupid, since it's in the past.
All of these are in the past. The SMB3 run is from 2010, that's five years ago. The previous AoS run wasn't "in the past" until a week ago, and the only thing changed was our—the core audience's—understanding of goal choices to be carried into the future. Which has little to no bearing on newcomers, who neither changed their perception of goal choices nor made any decisions on that front.
arandomgameTASer wrote:
the goal is literally "reverse boss order". So you fight the bosses. In reverse order.
Lol thanks, now I get it! What I still don't get is why it is important or significant enough to be chosen as a goal, because nobody has explained that at any point.
arandomgameTASer wrote:
warpless any% is boring, plus I don't think we should newcomer obsoleted movies. It doesn't represent the site anymore, as much as you'd like to believe it does. The 'longest' fight is less then 30 seconds. Unless you have ADHD, I don't see how that's a problem.
It's linked in the description of the published movie, which seems to indicate that we still want it to represent our site in some way. The warpless any% has a 8.2 entertainment rating (was 8.3 before I lowered my vote from 10 to 9.5), not sure how that means it's boring. Balore and Final Guard lasting 25-30 seconds each is not a problem per se, but I'm getting tired of explaining it, so maybe next time?
arandomgameTASer wrote:
If its ratings stay relatively high, why not have it?
It's not rated by newcomers.
arandomgameTASer wrote:
It's an interesting movie that is somewhat slow paced, but gets faster paced. You're basically complaining what you complimented the old Aria of Sorrow movie having, a progression of skills.
Oh, I'm not complaining about it having a progression of skills. I'm complaining the progression of skills starts happening only by the time many other movies would be over already. Until that it does very little to distinguish itself from a good unassisted run. Nobody would even be able to tell at a glance.
arandomgameTASer wrote:
It shows what TASes can do. Remember, a walkathon was believed to be impossible before a TAS of it was made.
So it needs all of 25 minutes to drive that point home? There are barely 15 seconds there that matter at all, and you have to go through the tedium of seeing Mario walk through the trivial levels (which are the vast majority of them) to see the couple places where it matters. Again, has any newcomer actually commented on that movie or seen it in full? Has it pulled anyone to the site via its entertainment value rather than being a factual statement: "yes, it's possible and we did it"?
arandomgameTASer wrote:
Actually no the newer movie is more interesting for the simple reason BECAUSE it's more broken, but also shows all of the game basically.
Interesting to whom, yourself? I know I'm different. I'm sure there are many more people who are different. I have just rewatched the comparison video, and I stand by my opinion. Bombman is a loss, Wily1 is a huge loss (the previous glitch was so much more entertaining it's not even funny), and the corrupted graphics are stupid and confusing for anybody who doesn't know or remember how they should look originally.
arandomgameTASer wrote:
Obviously it wasn't optimized very well if it got obsoleted. With the same zip tricks.
It was improved mainly by using different zips/OOB tricks and routes they enable. Optimization-wise it was so good that experts at this game couldn't find improvements at the time it was published, let alone newcomers.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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moozooh wrote:
[1438] SNES International Superstar Soccer Deluxe "playaround" by Marcokarty in 15:24.38: Amazing playaround. Zero game knowledge and only a very rudimentary understanding of soccer rules is necessary to enjoy it. My mother, a soccer fan, enjoyed it a lot—and I assure you, she never really played anything other than Minesweeper. If this isn't telling, I don't know what is.
This one shows what TAS can do when speed is not a factor.
Being an American, I still know that is NOT how the game normally is played. Which makes it all the more fun to watch and be confused over.
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war.
The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
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Before I read the entire thread, there is an actual thread for this flag.
The idea behind the flag is to mark some categories that use to break people's minds. There was a thread on that regard too, and the ones that had the most "votes" got flagged. The only run that didn't come from that thread was Gimmick.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Excuse how I'm typing, 'cause this is me in a state on where I need to be asleep, and even more alert Spikestuff will be confused with what I wrote.
[2603] PSX Spyro 2: Ripto's Rage! by lapogne36 & Crash41596 in 07:32.47
Oh, boy Oh Goodie, it's this.
The difference between this and the current WR:
- WR found a New Strat at the start recently.
- TAS manages to boost into talking.
- TAS manages to boost from one frog and proxy jumps on another, saving time.
- TAS proxy jumps into the sky to get to first boss compared to RTA gate crushing Spyro to go OOB.
- TAS playaround with first boss.
- TAS OOB in a spot that was deemed hard, and shows it no mercy, RTA slows down a bit.
- Annoying boss with the evil RNG, destroyed.
- TAS does two proxy jumps to get to final boss, RTA does the first proxy jump and detours to get a powerup in another level (unlimited firepower).
- RTA uses a different (reliable) method & proxy jumps to get to the final boss.
Final Boss:
Phase 1:
- RTA using their detour to their advantage they avoid any bull RNG they face on the final boss, to catch on the TAS whaling away with their breath.
- TAS getting the orbs like it's nothing and absolutely wrecking house.
- Both aim in the air and shoots off a fireball.
Phase 2:
- Both hit with their fireball shot from Phase 1
- TAS "it's as if they're using aimbot or something"
- RTA ... Yay, aiming. >.>
Edit Spikestuff of 18th Jan 2018: The hell did I write?
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
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Posts: 11486
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Replying in order of reading, those may be already answered/resolved.
moozooh wrote:
This is mainly a continuation of the above, but an obsolete movie deemed RFN should retain its flag unless it actually suits the new movie better than the old.
Makes sense, but how do we decide which one is actually better for newcomers?
moozooh wrote:
RFN and Star-tier have a very strong overlap that tricks people into thinking of recommended movies as a secret better-than-Star 4th tier. I believe this isn't exactly a sensible, let alone desirable situation. They have to be high-quality, well-received, and show the advantages and benefits of employing tool-assistance, yes. But at the same time they have to cater to the circumstances, mindset, and behavior of newcomers rather than your core audience.
The intent is (again) blowing the mind, giving the best emotions first. But being comprehensible also matters, thats why MM2 is used instead of MM1. As for overlapping, how can a movie that is expected to be so good it should blow your mind be not a star? "Secret better-than-Star 4th tier" - any flag can be imagined to be that, but flags are flags, tiers are tiers. But yes, we pick "best stars" there.
moozooh wrote:
Imagine a person who got here by following a link found on the first TAS they've watched, or just randomly on the internet. At this point they proceed in one of the two ways:
1) they search for one of their favorite games directly or watch whatever captures their immediate attention on the front page, in which case they will likely keep missing the Newcomer Corner list entirely until they're no longer newcomers (or until they leave the site for good);
2) they actually locate the Newcomers Corner first (which I don't believe happens all that often, and that is a problem for another discussion).
Log out and visit the main page.
moozooh wrote:
0) they should be run past actual newcomers to see if the idea works at all;
1) game itself should be aesthetically pleasing or capitalizing on nostalgia value enough so that seeing or hearing it isn't a detriment to the experience;
2) they should be reasonably short to avoid boredom or fatigue (5–15 minutes is ideal, 15–30 okayish, anything over 30 minutes is seriously pushing it—you don't want any of the items on the list skipped due to not having enough free time to watch something they don't yet know if they'll enjoy);
3) they should clearly identify as tool-assisted without having to make a second guess, and as such portray many TAS-only scenarios showcasing the required precision;
4) they should contain various different strategies/tricks/glitches to avoid feeling like it's the same thing going on repeatedly;
5) they should contain fun/clever/impressive stylistic decisions wherever possible.
[2320] SNES Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island "100%" by Baxter, Carl_Sagan & NxCy in 1:59:35.12
This is a great example of failing criterion #2 spectacularly.
I don't disagree with your examples of desired movie length, but they are arbitrary, and this run was picked because many people asked for it to be NewcomerRec, and it was (and is) the highest rated movie on the site regarding entertainment. So yeah, this one is no mistake to showcase.
moozooh wrote:
[2741] Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles by Aglar & marzojr in 26:53.06
There's a very good reason why my entertainment rating for this branch started at 10 with nitsuja's first attempt and gradually arrived at 9 by now: because every single trick is being gradually replaced by zipping and Tails-facilitated OOB travel. They are nowhere near as interesting to look at as good old TAS-precise platforming. In my opinion, this flag should either be moved to an earlier iteration of this branch or to some other run of S3&K or S2 entirely (although by this time all Sonic games are just one huge zip).
I agree with your take of the run (or the category?), but it was mentioned in the mind-blowing list for enough times to see it has its value. However, I don't see much of a problem to figure out the run that's currently more appealing. I starred GBA Amy for being so zip free and comprehensible.
moozooh wrote:
Compared to its predecessor, I find it barely acceptable at best. It's very hard to follow without intimate knowledge of the game, boss fights take either too long or too short, much of the soul usage variety is gone, one of the best fights is skipped, and general character progression dynamics is all over the place. It's most certainly a TAS for the fans in the first place. It also contains at least two known unimplemented improvements as well as a couple more potential improvements. I believe the RFN flag should either remain at the previous movie or be transferred to the warpless any% which has almost none of the problems while containing virtually all the same benefits as this and the warpless all-souls.
Once again picked due to many mentions as a mind-blowing run, and I think people were mentioning different iterations of this branch, so yeah. And I'm open for anything that feels better than what it currently is (so I'll just keep reading).
moozooh wrote:
It's among 20 most entertaining runs on our site, and it's not because of the fan base or belonging to some huge franchise, so I believe it makes perfect sense to showcase such a playaround for newcomers.
moozooh wrote:
[2676] NES Super Mario Bros. "warpless, walkathon" by Mars608 & HappyLee in 25:19.23
Has any newcomer ever watched all of it? Not only the flag; the existence of this movie and the fact that a shorter branch was sacrificed for it confuses me. The warped version was a neat novelty run and was good because in the six minutes of its runtime it could show pretty much every known way to overcome the in-game obstacles without pressing B. What exactly is being accomplished by having a movie four times its length escapes me. It doesn't contain four times the tricks. It doesn't even contain four times the amount of situations previously considered impassable without B. It can't allure even all the people who love Mario, judging from the sheer number of rating votes on it and the fact that it has the poorest entertainment rating of all SMB movies at 7.2. 7.2 is barely above average and probably below median as far as site-wide rating statistics goes.
Hmm, I might revisit my thoughts on this run. I remember there was some IRC discussion about it, but don't remember anything of it. I starred this movie instead of warped in the first place because it contained way more cool things that the latter did. And most importantly, warpless+walkathon was long considered plain impossible, and then MUGG suggested a solution, that does look very TAS-only, with all the setup and execution. Sure, real-time people may try and reproduce, but just like RTA-ing Gimmick 100% (props to Cyghfer), it's still a geek-only challenge (so far).
moozooh wrote:
Some movies, including a few obsolete ones, that I believe are quite fit for being recommended for newcomers.
I'll read the whole thread first.
EDIT:
moozooh wrote:
At some point we had a TASVideos showreel, which is actually a really fucking good video that is hard to find for some reason.
What I still don't get is why it is important or significant enough to be chosen as a goal, because nobody has explained that at any point.
Because of one of the reasons runs are picked for: doing things farthest from intended. 0-star is picked for that, RBO is picked for that too.
People wrote:
Staff discussion dwelled on a list of 10 (probably 15)
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
[2676] NES Super Mario Bros. "warpless, walkathon" by Mars608 & HappyLee in 25:19.23
Has any newcomer ever watched all of it? Not only the flag; the existence of this movie and the fact that a shorter branch was sacrificed for it confuses me. The warped version was a neat novelty run and was good because in the six minutes of its runtime it could show pretty much every known way to overcome the in-game obstacles without pressing B. What exactly is being accomplished by having a movie four times its length escapes me. It doesn't contain four times the tricks. It doesn't even contain four times the amount of situations previously considered impassable without B. It can't allure even all the people who love Mario, judging from the sheer number of rating votes on it and the fact that it has the poorest entertainment rating of all SMB movies at 7.2. 7.2 is barely above average and probably below median as far as site-wide rating statistics goes.
The thing is, since the goal is to beat the game without pressing the B button, it can be translated somehow like: Beat the most level possible without the B button. It's like the small only run of SMW. They could simply go to the final boss instead of beating the most level it can with a restriction.
EDIT: But reading back, I do agree that I would remove it from the RFN thingy, since it's relatively long. But the run itself it's nice. :)
It appears as if we are once again losing the functional purpose of all these different signs of differentiation and confusing them for regalia/badges of appreciation. Which they are not.
Well, yes. In practice, the "RFN" is used as the fourth tier, i.e. "Star Tier But Even Better".
I can see how it theoretically has a different purpose than that, but practically speaking it's pretty obvious that doesn't work.
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Radiant wrote:
I can see how it theoretically has a different purpose than that, but practically speaking it's pretty obvious that doesn't work.
How exactly it doesn't work? It's not a list of movie that we recommend newcomers to see first? What's the point of removing starred movies from there and putting there moons instead? Finally, the list is solid, we do not move the flag from one current run to another whenever we feel like, it's just based on some factors that make sense for this list.
- runs that were several times mentioned in the "what blew your mind" thread
- runs that do things that are farthest from intended
- runs of popular games
- runs with obvious tas-only strats
- runs where it's still comprehensible what's being done to the game (being popular helps, as people have knowledge of how it's intended to be played)
Of course we would pick them from Stars, as star movies are those that meet most of the above.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
My opinion on this is that RFN games should focus a bit more heavily on newer games. The next generation of TASers probably grew up on N64 or even later, a run of Mega Man 2 for example will not be particularly interesting simply because its an old game on a console they may never have even played.
I realize though that newer systems still have immature emulation, so the TASes to choose from are limited, just my two cents on what a new comer might be looking to see and how we might pick games accordingly.
As an example I think the GC super monkey ball run would be a good choice.
I agree with those who say that it's too much NES/SNES compared to newer systems. I thought about what movies of newer games would fit into this exclusive list well:
[2529] Windows Hyper Princess Pitch "Reallyjoel's Mom difficulty, best ending" by Tseralith in 15:40.48
What could explain the concept of a TAS better than beating an impossible game mode? The game throws everything at the player and fills the screen with enemies and projectiles, but the TAS just destroys everything. Literally everything.
[2505] GC Super Smash Bros. Melee "Adventure Mode" by numerics in 10:23.48
It's Melee and we just happen to have a fantastic TAS of it! None of your usual "Fox/Falco ten million inputs per second" showoffs, but a creative yet still speedy playaround with the perfect character for this kind of thing.
I also highly agree with putting ISS Deluxe on the list, I have shown that movie to many people that I introduced to TASing.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
I think HPP is a little repetitive, to be honest. It's incredible and shows off the essence of TASing as well as any movie, but within a few minutes it's shown you pretty much everything it has. However, ISS and SSBM I wholeheartedly agree with, precisely because they show such fantastic variety throughout their runtimes.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
A few people have requested that the recent Mario Kart 64 run gets the newcomer rec flag. I can not disagree with that, looking at all the feedback it's getting, yet I'd like to wait a bit to fully see the ratings it will get and make the decision when the hype settles down.
But while we're at it, I want to discuss one more thing. The Gimmick 100% run has been replicated RTA a while ago, so this run, while still being superb, doesn't stand out of skilled real-time speedruns anymore. It's arguably the run that's the least different from the paths that are possible RTA, out of all the recommended runs. Also, it was the run that I picked myself, while all the rest were spotted by the crowd as the runs that blew their minds.
So I suggest that when we flag the MK64, we unflag Gimmick.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
