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Super Turrican is an action platforming game whose distinctive feature is the morph ball mode (similar to Metroid) which lets you travel at high speed and through enemies. The game features many tricks for going fast.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: FCEUX 2.2.2
  • Beats the game as fast as possible
  • NTSC timing used (the game distinguishes between this and PAL on its own.)

Comments

This run features significant improvements over the published run, in which a significant improvement was known even at the time of publication. Since that time, boss skips and a level zip have also been found. The current run also has significantly faster boss fights.

Stage by stage comments

Significant time is saved in all stages. Two common tricks include jumping at running speed while exiting morph ball mode, mentioned by Truncated in the original submission, and 'running' speed while in morph ball mode, which for some reason wasn't known about in the original either.

Act 1

Main improvements are movement based. No route changes except for a neat jump in 1-2 that mklip2001 suggested to me in the thread. The boss fight is also much faster.
Savings:
1-1: 105
1-2: 217
1-3: 365

Act 2

Again more optimized, the boss fight is much faster.
Savings:
2-1: 154
2-2: 79
2-3: 181

Act 3

The boss skip here was originally found by jorf in a real time run. The trick is to spawn an item in the first slot and get it to fly close to the boss' room. This prevents the boss from spawning. It's a relatively rare setup, since enemies don't always spawn in the slots in the same order, and the direction the item flies is also random.
Savings:
3-1: 113
3-2: 293
3-3: 338

Act 4

There is a zip in 4-3 which involves jumping up the right side of the level. You have to be careful though, if the screen isn't scrolled properly when you enter morph ball mode you simply go up to your death.
Savings:
4-1: 276
4-2: 386
4-3: 143

Act 5

Another boss skip here involving a flying enemy right below where the boss normally spawns. This one is quite a bit simpler the the level 3 boss. Just morph ball over and then go back, I also do a quick jump to start the screen scrolling up to where it needs to be for the mini-boss on the other side. The last boss is much quicker then in the original.
Savings:
5-1: 122
5-2: 415
5-3: 1199

Overall Savings: 4497

Other comments

I noticed this game a while back, it looked fun to TAS and was also fast paced. I'm surprised how much savings there really were. There are lots of opportunities for optimization, I'm sure I missed something along the way, but I don't think I made any major mistakes.
Thanks to mklip2001 for going over my WIPs and offering suggestions for improvement.
Also thanks to Arc for originally improving my first boss fight, making look much closer at hos specials work and how bosses absorb damage. This made subsequent bosses much faster as well.

Noxxa: Claiming.
Noxxa: The older runs of this game were judged based on an apparent assumption that the game identifies whether it runs on a NTSC or PAL system, and fixes its internal timing accordingly. However, while there are some differences, the timing is shown to be significantly different between NTSC and PAL anyway, with NTSC timing being much faster than PAL timing. As this game was only released in Europe regions, and therefore intended to be run on PAL timing, this means the game is running faster than intended.
While there have been precedents of this game being accepted with NTSC timing, and this run is objectively an improvement to these runs, the old runs are also over nine years old, and there is no reason to continue a bad precedent of running a game on these settings now that it is known and verified to be faster than intended. I'm rejecting this submission for that reason.
This submission: #4812: Alyosha's NES Super Turrican in 08:36.39 beats the game using a higher difficulty mode and correctly using PAL mode, so rejecting this submission in favor of that submission.


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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #4810: Alyosha's NES Super Turrican in 07:23.02
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How to get rejected. Step 1: palFlag 0 (off) on a European game. Well previous with NTSC flag. [555] NES Super Turrican by Luke in 08:38.70 Next time, turn on the flag then do it. This game make no sense.
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From the description of the currently published run:
Contrary to most games, this game recognizes whether it is run on a PAL or NTSC console, and runs at the same speed on both systems. Therefore, the length of this movie is proper regardless of the NTSC/PAL mixup that the author didn't bother to fix.
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Alyosha
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In fact even that message in the original publication is a bit misleading. The game was only released in Europe, hence there is no equivalent rom with a (USA) for example, there is only one ROM. It's not that Luke picked the wrong version, it's the only one. However it is true that the game can recognize the region setting, (I did put this in my submission comments) so NTSC is proper.
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Hmm, the encode video is set to private. Could you set it to public
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Alyosha wrote:
However it is true that the game can recognize the region setting, (I did put this in my submission comments) so NTSC is proper.
No, it isn't. As you can see, the game runs a bit too fast on NTSC timing than on the intended PAL timing. Therefore, I myself am very iffy about this run being on NTSC timing rather than PAL timing.
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If the game explicitly has code to detect different timings and attempt to compensate for them, then shouldn't both timings be valid? Kind of like picking the language for a multi-language game.
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This was very nice, voting yes.
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Encode is public now sorry I missed that. @fsvgm777: Interesting, I remember seeing a quote from Bisqwit saying he saw no visual difference between the two:
Bisqwit wrote:
I tested the ROM with "-pal 1" option of fceu, and I couldn't see a difference between its timing and the timing of the previous AVI. I think the ROM automatically adjusts and thus works properly even if played in NTSC.
Yet the difference seems obvious enough in your GIFs, I wonder what went wrong here. Or perhaps he meant that the game runs properly with either setting, and over time this got mistranslated to runs at the same speed? We need a judge!
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I'd much rather see the game run in the mode it was intended to for its released region, even if timings were exactly the same. With the timings being visibly different (when compared side by side), I'm leaning towards not accepting this improvement. A past mistake from nine years ago doesn't necessarily justify making the same mistake of running the game with a faster-than-intended timing today.
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Oh also there was some discussion of this in the previous submission thread. here If you rename the rom with a (USA) tag and then run it, it does indeed run in NTSC mode with the same speed as the original (EUROPE) rom runs in PAL. It sems like the emulator ignores movie and other settings, maybe an emulator glitch. I don't know the technical details of what the emulator is doing here though, but this may be how they got the same timings. Might be something worth checking out in Bizhawk too?
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Alyosha wrote:
Might be something worth checking out in Bizhawk too?
This is BizHawk's dump status report when I boot up the game (NesHawk): ------ BEGIN NES rom analysis: Found iNES header: pr=128,ch=128,wr=8,vr=0,ba=0,pa=0|1,brd=MAPPER004,sys= Since this is iNES we can (somewhat) confidently parse PRG/CHR banks to hash. headerless rom hash: sha1:33487D9A013F81F434323960203E564434F8D2F8 headerless rom hash: md5:EAF108F829CF64FFA7F944E5AE420676 Could not locate game in bizhawk gamedb Chose board from nescartdb: pr=128,ch=128,wr=8,vr=0,ba=0,pa=0|0,brd=NES-TSROM,sys=NES-PAL-B Final game detection results: pr=128,ch=128,wr=8,vr=0,ba=0,pa=0|0,brd=NES-TSROM,sys=NES-PAL-B "Super Turrican" Implemented by: class TxROM END NES rom analysis ------ (relevant parts bolded) To me, it clearly indicates it's supposed to run on PAL timing (NesHawk does, anyway). Of note that QuickNES does not support PAL emulation as of present (akin to a certain terrible NES emulator called Famtasia), so it shouldn't be used for PAL games.
Alyosha wrote:
If you rename the rom with a (USA) tag and then run it, it does indeed run in NTSC mode with the same speed as the original (EUROPE) rom runs in PAL.
Again, the game runs faster on NTSC timing than on PAL timing. Here's a waveform of the title screen music on both PAL (top, intended) and NTSC (bottom) timings. As you can see, the title screen music ends slightly earlier on NTSC timing than on PAL timing (note: both WAV files start from console boot-up). For the record, the music is also slightly higher pitched on NTSC timing than on PAL timing. The fact that renaming the ROM filename to omit (E) or (Europe) makes the game run on NTSC timing is just something FCEU(X) does. It's not a glitch or anything in particular. For me, the timings are different enough that the game is supposed to be run on PAL timing and not NTSC.
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Alyosha
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Hmmm, but why doesn't running the ROM I named (USA) run the same as the (E) one if I turn off PAL emulation? Instead it runs much closer to the original PAL version. Actually there seem to be 4 speeds to run the game at depending on how I set the emulator. (E) - with PAL emulation (E) - without PAL (USA) - without PAL (USA) -with PAL The first and third are pretty close, but the other 2 are way different, weird. The game seems to be doing something on its own to compensate. I guess the question is if the game is truly intended to run in either region (even if its not an exact match) meaning some specific code somewhere is written specifically to compensate for the region. Well not like I know where in the ROM that code would be.
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Alyosha wrote:
Actually there seem to be 4 speeds to run the game at depending on how I set the emulator. (E) - with PAL emulation (E) - without PAL (USA) - without PAL (USA) -with PAL The first and third are pretty close, but the other 2 are way different, weird.
The second and fourth (bolded) happen because you change the timing while the game is actually running, and thus whatever the game does to compensate is not in effect until you perform a hard reset (NES -> Power in FCEUX). To me, because the game (NES version, at least) was only released in Europe, the game is supposed to run on PAL timing, so I'd much rather see a run done on PAL timing than on NTSC timing.
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Ahh ok, thanks for the explanations. This game seems to be really unique then. Well I will leave this run to its fate and await an official ruling. So maybe if other cases such as this come up there will be a (modern) precedent to follow. Back to PoP2 for me.
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Even though I've never actually played this game, I love watching runs of it. The player rolls right through lots of enemies and bounces around frantically, then makes mincemeat of bosses with the special weapon. Even though Luke's published run looks fast, this blows it out of the water. Absolutely everything feels faster, and the jumps are a lot smoother. Stage 4-3 is especially WTF-worthy. Alyosha, I hope you can update a Tricks page for this game to explain the speed oscillation tricks you used. Out of curiosity, was the final boss so much faster because you used up less special shots fighting only one miniboss in 5-2? Your 5-3 fight makes the published run's fight look really cheap. My vote for this is Hell Yes. It's even more impressive to me that Alyosha basically did this entire run over once or twice when he found new speed tricks. He works very quickly. (And thanks for the shoutout, but you did the real work. You may also want to thank Arc for some of his work on the 1-3 fist boss too.) Lastly, as far as PAL vs. NTSC is concerned, I don't think it should be an issue. I admit I don't really care about the distinction, but even more so, having the game run faster with NTSC settings makes it look even more impressive and harder to control. I figure it's like an extra level of difficulty for this run. (For some precedent where a published run got accepted even though a technical issue got overlooked at the start, see the current Demon Sword run.)
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Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
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Well, the run looked fast and it was really entertaining... but this issue comes up... so I don't really know what to vote.
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I don't really know what to vote.
Did you find this movie entertaining? It was entertaining. - Yes It was boring. - Meh Why did I watch this. I could've done other things in the space of that time. - No In your case you vote YES.
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Out of curiosity, was the final boss so much faster because you used up less special shots fighting only one miniboss in 5-2? Your 5-3 fight makes the published run's fight look really cheap.
Actually no, if you watch the published run, he jumps on his head immediately and proceeds to use specials from there. This is does very very little damage compared to hitting him in the chest. I guess Luke simply didn't know he could do more damage. Oh you are right I will add Arc, it always helps to have people improve your work and make you look a second time. As for speed tricks, well, all you have to do is hold B. I didn't see morph ball speed even in Jorf's world record. Maybe the game is just so rare, and the controls so non-nonsensical, that it isn't known? Even in real time this would save ~5 seconds just speeding through the first parts of most of the levels.
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mklip2001 wrote:
Lastly, as far as PAL vs. NTSC is concerned, I don't think it should be an issue. I admit I don't really care about the distinction, but even more so, having the game run faster with NTSC settings makes it look even more impressive and harder to control. I figure it's like an extra level of difficulty for this run.
The fact that the PAL game runs faster in NTSC mode is the exact reason the rule against NTSC/PAL version mismatches was introduced. There are tons of games where these kinds of shenanigans lead to runs faster than they should be, most notably many rejected SMB submissions. The fact that this game acknowledges the version, albeit poorly at that, and that the difference is slightly less apparent should not be reason to continue breaking this rule with a run setting that runs the game faster than intended.
mklip2001 wrote:
(For some precedent where a published run got accepted even though a technical issue got overlooked at the start, see the current Demon Sword run.)
That is also a seven-year old run. Do we need to keep making the same mistakes over and over again?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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I tested my movie file with Pal flag on and off. It's much closer then fsvgm's GIFs seem to indicate, in fact I get no visual difference at all. The player entered morph ball mode at the same frame in the AVI, and by frame 540 the movie was still syncing and the player was in visually the same location. Shortly after that is does de-sync due to an enemy being in a slightly different spot. I cannot reconcile this with how obviously different fsvgm's GIFs are. Is anyone else willing to test this out?
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You say things happened in the same frames, does that account for the framerate difference between NTSC and PAL?
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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^I mean same frame in the AVI (not in the fm2 file) OOps, wait I didn't read it right, nevermind! Yeah it is different. Hmmm, it's funny how the idea that they run at the same speed got propagated around seemingly everywhere I look. Oh well, that's what I get for not checking myself.
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Then it appears the game actually corrects the timing hardly at all in NTSC mode. I did some quick tests with the game myself, and the game clearly does run faster in NTSC mode. There seems to be some difference beyond raw framerate change, but it's relatively insignificant.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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New discovery! Expecting I will need to redo it in PAL, I tried seeing how far off my movie file would be. Turns out it syncs perfectly! Well after I adjust for pressing start a few frames earlier and removing some blanks. Even bosses work! Well that is a welcome surprise. I will post a test file shortly. I don't think I really know what is going on, but I don't have to redo everything so good enough for me. EDIT: actually , RNG works too. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25082083333228023 and here it is. 8:40, wow.