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andypanther wrote:
It's not like Nintendo (or any other company) is actually losing a cent from people making videos or something. But hey, capitalism isn't supposed to make sense, right?
"People watch the videos, instead of buying the game." is what the companies think. There are two effects with videos, one is that the viewer buys the game himself after getting advertised; the other the viewer would buy the game if there would be no video, but watches the video instead.
Favorite animal: STOCK Gt(ROSA)26Sortm1.1(rtTA,EGFP)Nagy Grm7Tg(SMN2)89Ahmb Smn1tm1Msd Tg(SMN2*delta7)4299Ahmb Tg(tetO-SMN2,-luc)#aAhmb/J YouTube Twitch
Spikestuff
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Just incase no one scrolls down to read the "removed video" description it says this: この動画は任天堂株式会社の申立により、著作権侵害として削除されました。 対象物: 任天堂著作物(不適切な使用形態) This video by allegations of Nintendo Co., Ltd., has been removed as a copyright infringement. Object: Nintendo copyrighted work (improper use form)
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
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feos wrote:
Warp: http://tasvideos.org/Nach/FairUse.html
Warp wrote:
Are you an attorney specialized in copyright law, or otherwise have extensive knowledge and experience on the subject? Because if you are not, and this is not intended to be in any way derogatory or offensive, then your personal opinion doesn't matter much.
TASeditor wrote:
"People watch the videos, instead of buying the game." is what the companies think. There are two effects with videos, one is that the viewer buys the game himself after getting advertised; the other the viewer would buy the game if there would be no video, but watches the video instead.
Yeah, I want Nintendo to sell me Metroid 2 please, that way I won't need to watch videos of it. PLEEEEEZ!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Amaraticando
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andypanther wrote:
It's not like Nintendo (or any other company) is actually losing a cent from people making videos or something. But hey, capitalism isn't supposed to make sense, right?
Intellectual property, especially in the case of displaying the audio/video output of the supposed property (the ROM binary), has nothing to do with capitalism. It has more to do with corporatism diminishing the freedom of use of a product.
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Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
Warp: http://tasvideos.org/Nach/FairUse.html
Are you an attorney specialized in copyright law, or otherwise have extensive knowledge and experience on the subject? Because if you are not, and this is not intended to be in any way derogatory or offensive, then your personal opinion doesn't matter much.
The guy who maintains this page is a lawyer. It's an interesting read, both the criteria and the examples.
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Let's all pretend these videos weren't done thanks to a lot of tampering with emulation and illegal backups of ROM,specially of games i barely had any contact physhically.In my opinion,while TASes are beneficial as advertising awareness of their games,they are the "children" of some slightly illegal activity,so it might make sense for nintendo to do just cut it altogether.Also,most of the emulated consoles and games are from nintendo,never forget that.I'm not sayin i enjoy it,but it's pretty reasonable that they have decided to do it.
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
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It should also be considered that most big corporations are not shy about using bully tactics to take down material they don't like even when the corporation is in the wrong. These are big corporations with tons of money and an army lawyers. The target will usually be a poor individual with no connections. Even when the individual is technically in the right, unfortunately might makes right. The question is: When a big corporation sends you a lawsuit threat, are you going to take the risk, or are you simply going to submit to the bullying? Most people are not ready to take the risk, and that's quite understandable. (A big corporation has extremely little to lose; after all, they are billionaires. You, however, have a lot to lose. And you probably can't afford a good lawyer either, lessening your odds even further. And it doesn't help that in many countries courts seem to be very corporation-friendly.)
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^ tru dat.
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
ars4326
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For the sake of discussion, isn't it technically legal though to own a ROM image, provided you also own a copy of the actual game? Could this be an argument to retain rights in keeping a TAS or playthrough video uploaded?
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
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ars4326 wrote:
For the sake of discussion, isn't it technically legal though to own a ROM image, provided you also own a copy of the actual game? Could this be an argument to retain rights in keeping a TAS or playthrough video uploaded?
Yes. Emulation itself has always been an area of "undefined behavior", I haven't seen a single official statement about rights (and lefts) of those who emulate games. It's believed that emulation is okay as long as you own the original. But in no way was that questioned by people who decided to kill TAS encodes. They just said so, period. "I died because the game said I died." They are certain emulation has no rights. Which is as stupid as it can be honestly. Because indeed the laws ruling copyright problems are simply outdated. Warp: that was my opinion, and I don't care how legally correct it is.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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(The post that follows could be considered selfish, and I suppose that for self-preservation reasons it is, but I wanted to share my thoughts on my own risk profile. I'd consider myself to be one of the more public faces of TASing, and thus at greater risk of direct attack. Specifically, I took a risk showing NES SMB inside SNES SMW at AGDQ 2015 (that was a lot of acronyms and an assumption of prior knowledge on my part; check out this ArsTechnica article as needed for the backstory, but I digress). I ensured I had both the correct SMB and SMW cartridges physically present with me on-site at AGDQ. I also had access to equipment that could have allowed me to re-dump the contents of SMB from the cartridge ROM (albeit not easily) if I was pressed to do so. Because neither system employs encryption the DMCA is not invoked and thus I maintained a defensible position in the context of presenting in front of a live audience. While I was able to protect myself for the purposes of presentation at a non-profit fundraiser, what we haven't been able to sort out is how to release this art in a way that would not result in unwanted legal attention. We could release the button presses as an .lsnes movie file but that technically contains a nearly unrecognizable but nevertheless intact ROM dump of SMB. We could release an .ips patch file to SMW but the patch file would have the same problem and is exactly the kind of content that seems to be getting targeted, so that's no better. That leaves us with the encode; based on the recent activity at Nicovideo it's even possible for the encode of SMB on SMW to be targeted for removal even though there's a reasonable case to be made that it is fair use. In summary, in selfishly looking at only my own situation I'm probably safe, but there is still a lot of leverage out there to prevent the team who created this art from sharing it. I feel rather strongly that what we have created only benefits the original IP holder through additional exposure, especially as there is no profit being made, but that's something a court will have to decide. I will continue to attempt to be above reproach as much as possible, but I'll again be taking a risk if I pitch running Ikaruga at SGDQ 2015 (what's safer, Dolphin with an exact copy of the game with the original in plain sight, or a video encode of the same?) and I have a secret project I'm pitching for AGDQ 2016 that will possibly also be what I'd best describe as risky. I guess we'll just have to see what happens.
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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I think you're being a bit too negative here, dwango. If you think about your situation, you're not really "risking" that much. It doesn't seem realistic to me that Nintendo would pick out a single TASer that shows off stuff at a charity event and sue him. This would probably the worst possible way for them to start legal actions against TASing/Emulation in general. In that case, they might as well sue AGDQ for allowing such a thing as TASing to be showed. Or even PCF for that matter. And even if they would, for whatever reason, actually be this dumb, the reaction would be huge, it would get attention well beyond gaming. And that's definitely not something you want as a corporation if you're having trouble with your business anyway. Copyright laws are outdated and broken, but TASing is just too niche and abstract to be "dangerous" for anyone that does it.
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
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Re: SMB inside SMW. Fair use allows using the entire copyrighted piece of work as long as your resulting work is still transformative enough, and if it additionally is a non-profit one, and finally, if it's in no way trying to compete for the same market as the original. http://fairusetube.org/guide-to-youtube-removals/3-deciding-if-video-is-fair-use
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
The question is: When a big corporation sends you a lawsuit threat, are you going to take the risk, or are you simply going to submit to the bullying? Most people are not ready to take the risk, and that's quite understandable. (A big corporation has extremely little to lose; after all, they are billionaires. You, however, have a lot to lose. And you probably can't afford a good lawyer either, lessening your odds even further. And it doesn't help that in many countries courts seem to be very corporation-friendly.)
This is good point and why a lot of complications end abruptly after the first cease and desist letter. My question is, how would tasvideos.org react to such a threat from Nintendo? Has this site even been noted as on the radar?
Amaraticando
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While playing Super Mario World, especially after eating a Chuck, should I be worried about controller presses injecting instructions to the SNES in such a way that the video displays something that resembles Super Mario Bros and Nintendo knocking at my door with the Federal Police?
JoselleAstrid
She/Her
Joined: 9/9/2013
Posts: 35
Well, the situation's not getting better... looks like ISMin and マジあり had their accounts suspended: https://twitter.com/ism140/status/578221196199628800 https://twitter.com/maziari1105/status/578308597098008576
This account has been suspended indefinitely Because this account has done something to violate the Niconico Douga terms of use, this account has been suspended indefinitely. If the act in violation of the rules is repeated, or if the administration deems a need for it, this account may be deleted without advance notice.
ISMin also seemed to indicate (on Twitter) that a lot of their videos were deleted. The 4 videos MUGG listed are still viewable, even the 2 by ISMin; so I'm not entirely sure what a suspension entails. I'm guessing they're unable to upload new videos though.
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andypanther wrote:
I think you're being a bit too negative here, dwango. If you think about your situation, you're not really "risking" that much. It doesn't seem realistic to me that Nintendo would pick out a single TASer that shows off stuff at a charity event and sue him.
I sure hope not, especially since Nintendo (I think) donated a Wii U for AGDQ 2015 this year. It's more that as GDQ events get bigger I'm going to increasingly become a bigger target as we penetrate newer and newer systems, and there's a long history of legal action by companies that don't see the humor in it. Adding in infringement on top just adds more ammo. But, sure, for now I'm probably safe.
Amaraticando wrote:
While playing Super Mario World, especially after eating a Chuck, should I be worried about controller presses injecting instructions to the SNES in such a way that the video displays something that resembles Super Mario Bros and Nintendo knocking at my door with the Federal Police?
While I think it's completely OK to do that, the problem lies in the interpretation of whether knowing what those buttons represent and typing them anyway is considered infringement. Again, this is all very untested water, and I'd really rather not be the one to have to go through the court system to find out. (On the flipside, I'm the President of the North Bay Linux User's Group and as a result I've gained some contacts from the EFF but I'd really rather not have to exercise that...) So, yeah, perhaps I'm over-reacting, but it's more out of concern that at all times I'm doing the best I can to be above all reproach as a representative of TASVideos.
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
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ars4326 wrote:
For the sake of discussion, isn't it technically legal though to own a ROM image, provided you also own a copy of the actual game? Could this be an argument to retain rights in keeping a TAS or playthrough video uploaded?
I don't think you legally owning the game has any relevance to the question of whether uploading material breaks copyright or not. For example, uploading a copyrighted song to YouTube is copyright infringement completely regardless of whether you own a legit copy of the song or not. That's inconsequential. (Besides, technically speaking you don't own the game. You own the physical cartridge/disc, and you own a license to play the game, which is what you implicitly get when you buy the game, but you don't own any rights to the game itself. You have no rights to infringe the copyrights of the IP owner.)
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Warp: thanks for not reading how Fair Use works. Good job!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
Warp: thanks for not reading how Fair Use works. Good job!
What are you talking about? Are you saying that if I own a copy of a song, I can upload it to YouTube and it won't be copyright infringement, while it would be if I don't own a copy of the song? I don't understand what you are referring to.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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hey,feos,remember when u made a topic about people disliking or criticizing u?u might want to read it again and read this last posts too,they don't come across as friendly.I find it hard to understand how much of the info u brought applies to the subject,so wii U might want to make your points clear.
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 893
are we sure that it's nintendo behind the bans, maybe it's just niconico being overzealous ?
Noxxa
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Nicos wrote:
are we sure that it's nintendo behind the bans, maybe it's just niconico being overzealous ?
Spikestuff, a page back wrote:
Just incase no one scrolls down to read the "removed video" description it says this: この動画は任天堂株式会社の申立により、著作権侵害として削除されました。 対象物: 任天堂著作物(不適切な使用形態) This video by allegations of Nintendo Co., Ltd., has been removed as a copyright infringement. Object: Nintendo copyrighted work (improper use form)
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp This seemed relevant to this thread. It also touches upon the question of if owning a copy of the original cartridge justifies owning a ROM image. (Once again, not my personal opinion)