Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
Nitrodon wrote:
I generally used a spreadsheet to find out exactly which RNG states will cause a SMAAAASH.
Ah, so SMAAAASH values are static? I was under the impression that these things tended to change. For example, I was watching the published run, and when you were getting Bombs from the Attack Slugs, the RNG value was always something like 162 during the "YOU WON" display. When I forced the RNG to the same number on a separate run, it didn't seem to work, and turned out to be a different number on the RNG entirely. Perhaps I could start asking either of you (Halamantariel or Nitrodon) these questions via PM? That is, if either of you don't mind.
When you exit the pyramid, you are unable to teleport, most likely to prevent you from avoiding the "Poo leaves" hotspot via teleport crashing.
Huh. Good on the programmers for realizing that you could teleport-crash over hotspots.
So, yeah, a bit more testing, and it seems that Dungeon Man leaving you causes you to regain the ability to teleport, even if Poo is with you. The hotspot that causes Poo to leave you is only active when you enter the desert area from the pyramid exit (and Poo hasn't already left you).
So entering & exiting Dungeon Man will allow you to walk over the hotspot with nothing happening. After Dungeon Man leaves you, enter & exit the pyramid to reactivate the hotspot & again lose the ability to teleport.
Anyways, one question is whether this stutter walk is considered a "big glitch" like the walk-through-walls. Would it be used on a new non-glitched any%?
Anyways, one question is whether this stutter walk is considered a "big glitch" like the walk-through-walls. Would it be used on a new non-glitched any%?
Personally, I think the stutter walk is as big a glitch as teleporting over hot spots. It basically does the same thing, it just can be used more often. Since the teleport-over-hotspot glitch has been used in the any% TAS, I'm assuming that the stutter walk can be used too.
That's my opinion on it.
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 401
Location: Japan, Nagoya
You may know, but I finally figured out how Ness can pass through a cliff. Here are four examples of the places, that you can achieve the glitch.
Video/SMV of example #4: http://youtube.com/watch?v=SfG_6adZDjk
You can know which block can pass Ness or not, via Tile Editor of PK Hack. I colored maps in accordance with those flags. In general, you can pass the blue spaces, and cannot pass the red spaces.
As far as I know, the glitch is done by two steps.
First, you need to go to the blue space located in diagonal of the space that you want to go. When a blue space is sandwiched in red space (left side and right side), you can't go there normally. However, if you have proper subpixel conditions, you will enter there by being pushed diagonally, by the red block which is the next of the space you want to go in.
Second, go straight as far as you can, then go to the direction you want to access (left or right, not diagonal). If you have proper positioning conditions, you will pass the wall diagonally as well.
I don't know about the following things yet:
* First blue space must be sandwiched by red spaces or not? (As far as I tested, the glitch doesn't work without the two red spaces)
* All of the examples above pass the wall upward or downward. Is going leftward or rightward possible?
Thank you for reading broken explanation. I hope someone will describe them better :|
Edit: a little interesting clip from pirohiko - http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/930002544/slide.smvEdit: Peaceful Rest Valley + Wall Glitch http://youtube.com/watch?v=Wic2Kn1FOHM
Not to ignore gocha's excellent research, but I thought I'd throw out another thing to think about:
We're already death-warping a bunch, so we might as well abuse it as much as we can. We're already doing the following:
- use death to skip fighting Starman Jr. (quicker than stutter-walking over hotspot, as you'd need to spend time walking home)
- use death to warp from Happy Happy Village back to Twoson Bus Station
- use death to warp from Lost Underworld back to Threed hotel
The only other place I can think of using it would be to warp from the end of Giant's Step back to downtown Onett. If this is even possible (talking to the police officer by Giant's Step's entrance may be required to trigger the Capt. Strong in the Police Station), it may still be slower due to the lack of PP for the Onett Police Squad. We could stay at the hotel or visit Frank to recover PP, but that seems really slow.
EDIT: I recently submitted a stat & experience guide to gamefaqs. It may be helpful in your planning. Warning -- it's big (over 1 MB).
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/54159
Wow, where was this like a month ago when I wanted to know all this ;)
The problems I foresee with death-warping from Giant's Step are that Bombs are used in the Captain Strong strategy, and getting the melody heals you anyway, making dying a pain.
I discovered new glitch with Exit mouse.
If you enter the entrance of cave with the map walking glitch, Exit mouse mistakes the entrance.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/730541857/ExitMouseGlitch.smv
You can warp without changing the memory of the last entrance if you enter at the middle of the tunnel.
Pyramid is a tile set same as last dungeon.
You may use it to warp after having lost a sound stone, but cannot use it because of flag 174.
pirohiko: Interesting Exit Mouse glitch.
Before we understood why the game froze when death-warping back from the Lost Underworld, I came up with some convoluted method of setting the Exit Mouse Warp point at the start of Lumine Hall, death-warping back to Threed, beating Magicant, ghost-walking to Stonehenge Base (shares same tileset as Threed underground tunnels), and using the Exit Mouse to warp to Lumine Hall (where you could beat Electro Specter & enter Lost Underworld, and teleport out of there).
The problem with that was that in order to get Saturn Valley as a teleporting location, you needed to enter the place from the tunnel linking it to Peaceful Rest Valley. And entering that cave reset the Exit Mouse point.
Regardless, that whole mess was put to rest when we discovered why death-warping back from the Lost Underworld "froze" the game -- the death-respawn point (where Jeff joins you) was too low down. Saving at the Threed Hotel first solved this.
I'm not sure I fully understand your Exit Mouse trick. Could it be used to avoid saving at the Threed Hotel?
Also, being too busy lately to mess around, I never tested to see if there was a difference in doing the ghosting trick on the top of a staircase instead of at the bottom. It makes sense in hindsight.
It's useless for the current run, unless we figure out an earlier place in the game to start ghosting. Jeff is useless for Magicant, and I have the feeling that he'll just magically appear with Poo after Ness's Nightmare if we ghost before acquiring him.
gocha: Those are excellent tricks.
1) Stutter-stepping over the Starman Jr. hotspot.
- While this isn't nearly as cool as death-warping home (mainly because stutter-stepping is virtually impossible to do on a console), it is much cleaner, and (probably) faster. And this is a TAS -- we should be doing tricks that you can only do on a TAS.
2) Extra Peaceful Rest Valley "ledge jumps/climbs".
- Those are some nice shortcuts. I guess your research from a few posts ago is starting to pay off. Too bad they won't be used, being obsoleted by your 3rd video.
3) Teleporting through walls.
- Cool. Is it possible to use that as a shortcut, or is impossible to get out of there? What happens if you try to walk off the left side of the area?
4) Ledge Climbing/Jumping past the Twoson Tunnels.
- Wow. Now only the Frank-to-Towson & Jeff-in-Winters stuff isn't broken wide open. For Pete's Sake, both Paula & Poo are just going to appear out of thin air in this run!
Uh, wow. That was great. Very well optimized.
Sorry for not being entirely clear in my previous post. We thought we needed to be able to teleport to the Lost Underworld, but that was fixed once we understood why the game "froze" after death-warping.
Before your latest video, this was the plan after Jeff joined the others:
1) Save at Threed Hotel.
2) Go back to graveyard.
3) Do glitch.
4) Walk straight to Lumine Hall hole.
5) Use Sound Stone.
6) Enter hole.
7) Death warp back to Threed hotel.
Your way seems much faster, as you skip most of the map-walking by warping right above the Lumine Hall area. I'm sure that even taking into account the time needed to ghost yourself a second time, it's quicker.
...Wait a second. Why do you not freeze if you walk above where you did the glitch in Summers after arriving in the Lost Underworld?
And after doing the glitch in Summers, I stopped the movie & instead took a tunnel in from the pyramid that put me where Poo leaves you, and the game froze there, even though it's almost as low down as Threed....
Argh! Whenever I think I have the nuances of this glitch figured out, it throws a curveball! I'll leave it to the experts.
...Wait a second. Why do you not freeze if you walk above where you did the glitch in Summers after arriving in the Lost Underworld?
If you do downward glitch, even movement to any room warps to stairs. It has nothing to do with the height. It is necessary to cancel glitch by stepping on stairs or the escalator.
Perhaps, it may do action same as stairs to walk without permission when it touches the hole.
The area where you hear a "falling" sound between the Lumine Hall hole and the Lost Underworld is at (3200, 1152). This is higher than where the glitch was used (Y=2888), so the game warps you there and resets the glitch. You are then warped to the Lost Underworld, because that's what always happens in that event. Hence you aren't stuck no matter where you go after that.
Ah. Thank you for the explanation.
I'm not sure why the designers had you warp to a dummy room as opposed to just pausing on the black screen, but we should be thankful because it helps us.
I'd posit because a dummy black room with a sound event is easier than coding a special transition effect, or worse, a special case in the transition blackout-something that is run so often.
So, I've been in the midst of re-watching the old run, and I have to ask, has any progress been made on this in the past almost two months?
I've been really excited to get to watch the full thing.
I make gliched run now.
The progress advanced to 50%, but comes back to 25% because an update point was found.
Perhaps it will be completed within this year.
I don't yet decide it, but I'll obtain Gutsy bat if luck manipulation is difficult.
It is desirable for only Ness to wake, but may be all right even if all the members are in a strange state when Ness has Gutsy bat.
If you have a good idea, please tell me it.
I've been doing a little thinking about the battle strategies for this new glitch run.
[useless stuff cut]
Perhaps we could get a red-swirl in Peaceful Rest Valley to quickly give Ness a cold, timing it so that he collapses just after recruiting Paula. But, in the current run, Ness is already almost out of HP by the time he rescues Paula, so that probably won't matter.
I see two ways to beat Ness's Nightmare:
1) Forget about reviving Paula & Jeff in Magicant -- unghost yourself from the glitch at the door to Flying Man's house. Recruit a Flying Man, grab the Magicant Bat, and SMAAAASH! Ness's Nightmare to death. Ness is already going to receive massive level-ups, so he might as well just absorb everything himself from the battle.
2) Revive Paula & Jeff with Ness's Mom in Magicant, and use Paula's prayer to confuse Ness's Nightmare. It can blast itself with rockin' omega, while Paula helps out with some light-chasing prayers. Jeff can drop, but Ness must stay conscious so that he doesn't disappear into the ether after Magicant (stranding Paula in Saturn Valley after beating Giygas).
As for Giygas...
1) Just have Ness (and maybe Flying Man) SMAAAASH! Pokey's lights out, while you manipulate misses from both Giygas & Pokey.
2) Have Paula put them to sleep with prayer, and beat them down while asleep.
3) Have Paula confuse them, and let them blast each other (manipulate Giygas to miss himself).
For phase two of Giygas, let him blast himself with reflected lightning while you suppliment with PSI Rockin & light-chasing prayers. For phase 3, just have Giygas do nothing on his turns.
Jeff & Poo are useless in the Cave of the Past without doing some preparation. Jeff's speed is much too low to hit with Bottle Rockets on Pokey or Giygas without detouring for the Rabbit's Foot. That would involve either beating Electro Specter or doing the walk-through-walls glitch a 3rd time, but if we do, then we could steal a Multibottle Rocket on the way to Giygas.... Poo simply doesn't have enough PP to use Starstorm Omega, and he missed out on learning the alpha version. Detouring for the Bag of Dragonite in Magicant may be worth it, just to give them something to do. Or they could be meat shields to absorb reflected blows from phase-1-Giygas.
Nitrodon wrote:
Floogal wrote:
2) Revive Paula & Jeff with Ness's Mom in Magicant, and use Paula's prayer to confuse Ness's Nightmare. It can blast itself with rockin' omega, while Paula helps out with some light-chasing prayers. Jeff can drop, but Ness must stay conscious so that he doesn't disappear into the ether after Magicant (stranding Paula in Saturn Valley after beating Giygas).
I'm not sure why I didn't think of confusion on Ness's Nightmare, but now that the possibility is out there, I'll improve it:
3) Revive Paula & Jeff with Ness's Mom in Magicant, and use Paula's prayer to confuse Ness's Nightmare on turn 1 after it uses Shield beta. It can blast itself with a glorious light (i.e., Flash gamma) for an instant kill.
As for Giygas, strategy 1 is out of the question. It's just too much manipulation, even for a TAS. Strategy 2 is intriguing, and strategy 3 might require too much luck. I'm not sure what causes characters to wake up or return to normal.
Floogal wrote:
Ha, ha! Awesome -- I never thought to have Ness's Nightmare flash itself.
Regarding the status ailments, this what I've got in my notes (most taken from various places on starmen.net):
The only way to cure feeling strange status (aside from PSI Healing beta or higher) is to be hit with a non-SMAAAASH!ing bash-like attack. Unfortunately, both of Pokey's attacks are bash-like. So we'd need to have him use gas, miss himself, or SMAAAASH! himself.
And Giygas only has a 16% to miss himself with his own attacks. I think confusion is out of the question.
Sleep wears off with 50% probability when hit with any damage-dealing attack, and wears off naturally with 25% probability on the character's turn.
Probably the best strategy is to put Giygas to sleep, let Pokey wake up, and have Poo keep him frozen while he gets smacked with Legendary Bat physicals from Ness & light-chasing prayers (or PSI Freeze) from Paula.
I'm massively late in this, but...
Right at the very end of the run, I was utterly surprised at just how much you were able to skip there and I was completely wrong in where I guessed you'd end up at the end of the run.
Great job! I'm seriously looking forward to seeing more.
Just curious, has anybody attempted to see if any glitches can be exploited by using two controllers? According to Earthbound Central, Earthbound can be played with two controllers (intended to be controlled by you and a friend, where both controllers do the same thing).
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Video/SMV of example #4: http://youtube.com/watch?v=SfG_6adZDjk
You can know which block can pass Ness or not, via Tile Editor of PK Hack. I colored maps in accordance with those flags. In general, you can pass the blue spaces, and cannot pass the red spaces.
As far as I know, the glitch is done by two steps.
First, you need to go to the blue space located in diagonal of the space that you want to go. When a blue space is sandwiched in red space (left side and right side), you can't go there normally. However, if you have proper subpixel conditions, you will enter there by being pushed diagonally, by the red block which is the next of the space you want to go in.
Second, go straight as far as you can, then go to the direction you want to access (left or right, not diagonal). If you have proper positioning conditions, you will pass the wall diagonally as well.
I don't know about the following things yet:
* First blue space must be sandwiched by red spaces or not? (As far as I tested, the glitch doesn't work without the two red spaces)
* All of the examples above pass the wall upward or downward. Is going leftward or rightward possible?
Thank you for reading broken explanation. I hope someone will describe them better :|
Edit: a little interesting clip from pirohiko - http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/930002544/slide.smv
Edit: Peaceful Rest Valley + Wall Glitch http://youtube.com/watch?v=Wic2Kn1FOHM
