I've been fooling around lately on OoT and a question popped in my mind: if there's a 100% TAS someday, would ZeldaSpeedRuns' definition be good or would it need to take every item (things like Goron's bracelet or the maps). I don't pretend like I would ever be able to do it, even less alone.
Here's the rules I'm referring to:
ZeldaSpeedRuns wrote:
Obtain 20 Hearts*
Learn all songs
Collect all 100 Golden Skulltulas**
Obtain Double Defense and Double Magic
Obtain the Gerudo Card and Stone of Agony
Obtain the Giant's Wallet
Obtain all items on the Item Select subscreen (Eg. Din's Fire, Boomerang)***.
Obtain all equipment on the Equipment subscreen (Eg. Goron Tunic, Hover Boots, Golden Scale)***
Obtain all Spiritual Stones and Medallions (Eg. Zora's Sapphire, Shadow Medallion)
Complete the game (reach the credits)
Other notes:
RBA/BA is banned
Timing ends on last hit on Ganon
Maps, Compasses, and Boss Keys are not required
Ganon's Castle trials are not required
Obtaining the cow in Link's house is not required
Buying or planting all Magic Beans is not required
Duping a bottle over an item is allowed, but your final inventory must be complete
*: You may not collect any heart piece more than once. You may not obtain the extra heart piece in Gerudo Fortress as child or the extra heart piece in Kakariko Graveyard.
**: You may not collect any Golden Skulltula token more than once.
*** Only highest upgrades are required for the following items. (Eg. Golden Scale, Golden Gauntlets, Longshot)
Since people are already using this for RTA I don't see why we wouldn't in TAS, but I'd like someone else opinion on this.
I like that definition of 100%. The only problem I could see is that some speed runners argue that RBA/BA should be allowed as long as you collect the original item before you RBA it. (This would allow you to get more bombs/bombchus without having to deviate from the route too much). I don't really see an issue with that as long as the item is collected legitimately before RBA happens. That's all up for debate, though. I could see the TAS being made either way.
Another question would be: Should the TAS get Epona? That's something that TASers in this thread have argued about every time 100% is mentioned. I think the TAS should skip epona (unless getting her would somehow be faster, which i doubt).
What is everyone's thoughts on this? I would LOVE to see a 100% TAS someday in the future. I wouldn't be able to contribute to it because i know nothing about TASing, but i would be in this thread all the time if it was being made.
Well, if you'd like an opinion, I'd say that definition is silly. 100% is defined as collecting all the items (or upgrades) in a game. Things that fall into this category are things that can clearly be collected and of which there are not an infinite amount of. Therefore, the definition should be more around collecting all the items than making sure the inventory screen is "maximized."
So to add to that definition, all upgrades are required, including the intermediate (e.g. silver scale). All compasses, keys and maps should be collected. The cow should be collected. All heart pieces, including the extra ones in gerudo and the graveyard. Buying all beans. Duping would be allowed as long as you collect an item; requiring inventory to be "complete" is silly. Collecting stuff more than once is fine, but you must still collect all the individual heart pieces and skulltulas.
Ganon's trials are not required (except shadow for the golden gauntlets) because they do not actually give any items or pickups.
That's my opinion anyway.
Stevmay09 wrote:
I like that definition of 100%. The only problem I could see is that some speed runners argue that RBA/BA should be allowed as long as you collect the original item before you RBA it. (This would allow you to get more bombs/bombchus without having to deviate from the route too much). I don't really see an issue with that as long as the item is collected legitimately before RBA happens. That's all up for debate, though. I could see the TAS being made either way.
Another question would be: Should the TAS get Epona? That's something that TASers in this thread have argued about every time 100% is mentioned. I think the TAS should skip epona (unless getting her would somehow be faster, which i doubt).
What is everyone's thoughts on this? I would LOVE to see a 100% TAS someday in the future. I wouldn't be able to contribute to it because i know nothing about TASing, but i would be in this thread all the time if it was being made.
Good point about RBA. I'm inclined to agree.
Getting Epona should be a must because she is clearly an "item" or "upgrade" that you collect in the game.
So to add to that definition, all upgrades are required, including the intermediate (e.g. silver scale). All compasses, keys and maps should be collected. The cow should be collected. All heart pieces, including the extra ones in gerudo and the graveyard. Buying all beans.
Are you talking about boss keys or every normal keys?
Also, as for the extra heart pieces, I don't consider them in the 100%. I get the question about the intermediates upgrades, compasses and even the cow to an extent, but the heart pieces that aren't meant to be there should be required in the definition. I would even push it further and consider that they could technically replace another one of the "normal" ones.
As a side note, Tompa is totally right and you need to have Epona. To my knowledge, nobody found a way to skip that requirement, but if there was I would think skipping Epona would be for the best if it saves time.
Are you talking about boss keys or every normal keys?
All of them. They are a finite number of them in each dungeon.
Also, as for the extra heart pieces, I don't consider them in the 100%. I get the question about the intermediates upgrades, compasses and even the cow to an extent, but the heart pieces that aren't meant to be there should be required in the definition. I would even push it further and consider that they could technically replace another one of the "normal" ones.
You do have a point, but it's a TAS we're talking about, so including them could be... optional, I guess. Err, OK, so no opinion on the extra heart pieces then, I guess.
The extra heart pieces should not be collected. As far as i know, they are not even intended to be collectable, and they should not replace a heart piece that was. I actually forgot that you need epona for the archery minigame. In that case, collecting epona would be required. Overall, i think the RTA definition is the best one to go by (with the possible exception of allowing RBA at some points, like i mentioned in my previous post)
EDIT: I forgot to mention the dungeon keys. Just like the map and compass, the keys should not be collected unless they are needed. RTA doesn't do that and i don't think TAS should either.
For reference the NES "all items" TAS collects dungeon maps and compasses, but not the keys, because the normal keys are replaced by the magical key.
Dungeon map screen should be complete, i.e. map, compass and boss key.
So should the normal item and inventory screen. Infinite consumption items don't need to collected.
The extra heart pieces should not be collected. As far as i know, they are not even intended to be collectable, and they should not replace a heart piece that was.
They aren't intended. You need glitches to get to them. I still stand by what I said previously but as of now it wouldn't save any time in a TAS with the current RTA route.
Stevmay09 wrote:
(with the possible exception of allowing RBA at some points, like i mentioned in my previous post)
I don't know how I feel about RBA... I guess since I would consider OK skipping half the Biggoron Sword trade sequence I would be OK with the fact of using RBA for ammo and stuff.
I'm not opposed to collecting the maps and compasses, but i just wouldn't see why the TAS would get it. I can't make a decent argument for either side, so i'm indifferent to it. It doesn't really matter to me, but I think we should just go by RTA rules just to make it simple.
The TAS would be played on Japanese 1.0, right? Doesn't that let you skip a lot of the trading sequence for the Biggorron sword? I'm pretty sure that's the version ZFG uses in his 100% speed runs.
Why can't it be so easy for this game like in MM..
Small keys: They are more arbitrary to include than map/compass/bosskey, since they're not permanently in your inventory. If you want to collect them for 100%, you might as well open all chests that appear on the map.
Map/Compass/Bosskey: I would include them because they're permanently visible in the inventory. If you collect skulltulas 51-100, which give you nothing but a maximized number in a menu, why not going for those items too? They even make the dungeons more interesting.
Epona: I know that Epona is needed to get some items, and it's unlikely that we will find a way to skip her. But if it was possible, it would be very arbitrary not to do it.
Cow in house: Absolutely arbitrary. Including the cow goes into "all permanent flags" -territory.
Extra HPs: They're not intended to be obtainable, but I wouldn't mind if a TAS got them.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
What does arbitrary mean in your context? I can't figure out if it means "don't collect" or "collect".
andypanther wrote:
Small keys: They are more arbitrary to include than map/compass/bosskey, since they're not permanently in your inventory. If you want to collect them for 100%, you might as well open all chests that appear on the map.
Keys are collectible and are finite in number. Chests are not items that can be collected, so opening them makes little sense.
Boss keys, compasses, and maps are skipped because they only appear on your inventory in their respective areas, not on the global inventory screen. They would also only serve to make the run less entertaining as none of the compasses or maps would be used, and currently I think only one boss key is used (if any)? Forcing the player to collect boss keys would cause him to use a slower, outdated, route through the dungeon in most cases.
MM only collects maps and compasses because they easiliy fit into the "must have everything that does not get taken away after playing Song of Time" definition.
I stand by the ZSR definition.
Not collecting stuff because it won't be used is kind of arbitrary. How many different things collected in 100% aren't actually used? I do believe it sometimes accounts for a significant amount.
I feel very strongly against requiring maps, compasses, and boss keys in zelda 100%s. I have no compelling logical explanation.
You always have the option of skipping half the sword trading sequence, if you prefer to buy and break the giant's knife, which makes a good case for not requiring all possible trade slot items.
You always have the option of skipping half the sword trading sequence, if you prefer to buy and break the giant's knife, which makes a good case for not requiring all possible trade slot items.
Yeah, you're right. I didn't even think about the fact that the giant's knife could be consider as a intermediate version and should be gotten in 100% if we go with the idea of getting every weaker upgrades.
So then should you have to buy the bombchu shop (in Hyrule Market, not the carpet salesman) out of chus, since they're collectibles and you can only ever make 8 purchases from it?
So then should you have to buy the bombchu shop (in Hyrule Market, not the carpet salesman) out of chus, since they're collectibles and you can only ever make 8 purchases from it?
If chus are finite in number, it makes sense to get them all, just like beans. Changing the state of some location is not usually part of the 100% definition, so just selling out something of a shop wouldn't be considered a requirement.
