No, you only timed out how long it took to get the sword. MrGrunz timed out some of the time lost from not having sword+getting rupees, but it was incomplete, and he was not sure which was faster.
Having to get 4 deku sticks made it significantly slower to skip sword.
Are you just assuming that, or is there good evidence complete with semi-accurate timings to support that margin of victory is greater than margin or error?
This reminds me last time I tried show everyone swordless was faster. Let's not blindly assume things until some math has been done please.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Having to get 4 deku sticks made it significantly slower to skip sword.
Are you just assuming that, or is there good evidence complete with semi-accurate timings to support that margin of victory is greater than margin or error?
This reminds me last time I tried show everyone swordless was faster. Let's not blindly assume things until some math has been done please.
There's no point in timing it because it's obviously much slower. The only reason no one has objected this is because they're ignoring you.
Having to get 4 deku sticks made it significantly slower to skip sword.
Are you just assuming that, or is there good evidence complete with semi-accurate timings to support that margin of victory is greater than margin or error?
This reminds me last time I tried show everyone swordless was faster. Let's not blindly assume things until some math has been done please.
There's no point in timing it because it's obviously much slower. The only reason no one has objected this is because they're ignoring you.
That's exactly what everyone said about swordless for the ~40 minute strategy, including MrGunz. I proved it was faster by a decent margin, MrGunz took note and peer reviewed my work (my work being 1st grade math and few youtube videos, 5-10 minutes of work, an open mind and some basic logic) and confirmed I was in fact completely right.
That's exactly what everyone said about bean skip to get up to gauntlets in desert temple. I argued bomb hover would be faster and showed the 1st grade math to prove it. Years later people figured out I was right all along.
So here were are, same situation, I'm not quite able to get very accurate estimates since there aren't any good videos for a couple of the off route detours for getting the sticks, and there's large tree possible strategies with subtly differences. But it shows something like 7s faster with a 8s margin of error, so likely between -1 and 15s faster. MrGunz, wiser this time, never dismissed this possibility from the start and has been peer reviewing my work and seems be finding similar preliminary results.
Historically it's been proven closed minds are counter productive to speedrunning and don't serve the community. Open minds, 1st grade math, and basic logic is how you plan good speedruns.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Having to get 4 deku sticks made it significantly slower to skip sword.
Are you just assuming that, or is there good evidence complete with semi-accurate timings to support that margin of victory is greater than margin or error?
This reminds me last time I tried show everyone swordless was faster. Let's not blindly assume things until some math has been done please.
There's no point in timing it because it's obviously much slower. The only reason no one has objected this is because they're ignoring you.
That's exactly what everyone said about bean skip to get up to gauntlets in desert temple. I argued bomb hover would be faster and showed the 1st grade math to prove it. Years later people figured out I was right all along.
ZFG proved this was faster long before you did. No one did it because we had no good methods for getting to the seam. The only thing you can take credit for is trying to take credit for what others said and tested. Stop trying to fool yourself.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Open minds, 1st grade math, and basic logic is how you plan good speedruns.
Ahh, thanks. I should take more advice from the great Spider-Waffle, seeing as how you've done so many speedruns yourself.
I won't bother continuing this; I'll just join everyone else in ignoring you.
Is there a practical use of the hookshot glitch in OoT for TASing? It seems unfortunate that such a cool glitch has so few implementations. Obviously it won't be used in any% with WW, so I guess that leaves MST w/no RBA... I've been puzzling over this one but I can't think of any other uses for it. A 100% run could probably make use of it but it seems like we won't see that TAS until the emulators are more reliable, if I understand correctly.
I fear this game is reaching a point where it's so broken that even the cool new tricks are hard to find uses for. Another example: CosmoWright at SRL managed to glitch the Trials by overloading actors until things were despawning, and it looked pretty cool, but again there's no way practically to use this in a TAS, is there? Unfortunate, I suppose...
Well, looking forward to whatever progress is made on this front. The guys here continue to impress, so I can't complain.
Pheenoh wrote:
I won't bother continuing this; I'll just join everyone else in ignoring you.
^
Once I stumbled upon the discussion leading up to his ban at SDA I realized the merits of this approach.
@Pheenoh
I hate to encourage spider-waffle, but getting sword or deku stick is not that far apart. Grunz determined after some timing that sword is slightly faster, but not by much, as you can:
- buy one deku stick
- go down ZR, get bottle, etc.
- after getting back to Kokiri buy another stick along with the shield
- mido skip via megaflip off a skulltulla you summon from the magic bean hole
- use deku stick ISG to kill the Dekubabas and get 3 more deku sticks (remember default damage of ISG is always 1 Kokiri sword swipe, thus you can kill them with stick ISG)
What it mostly came down to in the end is that stick text is way slower in the shop than outside. I think that shows how close that was.
I admire your charity towards the poor guy. Giving him some good words.
But in the end it turned out that he was as wrong as always.
I am still curious about the new escape from castle vs old method. People seemed to agree it was faster, about how much time saved are we talking here?
No idea, but it should be quite a bit, since it skips the Stalfos fight and crap.
We'll have to see once somebody TASes it.
My best guesstimation: 30-45 seconds.
@Pheenoh
I hate to encourage spider-waffle, but getting sword or deku stick is not that far apart. Grunz determined after some timing that sword is slightly faster, but not by much, as you can:
- buy one deku stick
- go down ZR, get bottle, etc.
- after getting back to Kokiri buy another stick along with the shield
- mido skip via megaflip off a skulltulla you summon from the magic bean hole
- use deku stick ISG to kill the Dekubabas and get 3 more deku sticks (remember default damage of ISG is always 1 Kokiri sword swipe, thus you can kill them with stick ISG)
What it mostly came down to in the end is that stick text is way slower in the shop than outside. I think that shows how close that was.
Killing the Deku Babas with the Deku Stick doesn't really work. You have to jumpslash to get up to the ground again after leaving the water at the Mido Skip. Therefore crouch stab is not at default damage anymore.
But couldn't we simply beat the rest of the game (after buying Shield and Stick right before Deku Tree) with one Deku Stick? You can kill Gohma and Ganon using ISG. You can Mega Flip instead of jumpslashing in Deku Tree to skip B1. We get Slingshot now anyway, so no need to get Deku Nuts.
Of course, you can't use a lot of timesavers here and there, so unfortunately, it should be damn close.
okay Mr. Spiderwaffle I will take an intellectual approach to solving our petty dispute.
The timings you "estimated" for skipping sword are missing some key details.
Where are you going to get all of that money you need? There is a red rupee in zora's river that is 3-5 seconds out of the way. You might want that for your second deku stick. Then there is the fact that you HAVE to skip mido due to no sword. Just getting the skulltula to come out of the soil to megaflip off of is a 19-20 seconds (timed on console a TAS MIGHT be able to manipulate it for 15-17 seconds), but after that you are left with one deku stick. Doing the megaflip instead of the antigrav is definitely 4-5 seconds slower there too. Then there is the fact of the double death with gohma. You MIGHT be able to pull it off with isg, but I highly doubt it is possible since the deku stick's hitbox is in front of link if he has it out and putting it away would force you to 2 cycle making it slower. So let's back track, you would have to buy a 3rd deku stick from the shop so you could double death. Again that is about 5-7 seconds lost from picking up those extra rupees.
So as you can see, skipping deku stick is in fact slower than getting sword if we use your estimations and mine together. As an experienced OoT speedrunner I would assume most people here would trust my estimations over yours too :)
SW: Haven't you thought about making a tas, of the part you're so sure would be faster with your method, by yourself? It's not a question really - either gtfo and PROVE that you're right, or stop making a dumbass out of yourself.
I have, and I've tried, and I've helped with some testing for blob before and some other things, but ultimately I found the curve to be highly proficient to be higher than what I have the time for and I chose to focus on other things more important in my life. And yes I agree it would be great if I was highly proficient with in game OoT TASing and could give everyone the definitive proof they need to see to accept anything beyond idiocracy.
I know many close minded people would love to see me leave, which is why I've given them the perfect opportunity to see that happen. My suggestion which they've so blatantly dismissed as idiocracy, I am putting on the line. So it's time they put their OoT speedrunning existence where their mouth is or stop talking.
You don't need to be amazing. You seem to think it's a significantly faster, so it doesn't really matter if your timing is off by a couple seconds, does it?
okay Mr. Spiderwaffle I will take an intellectual approach to solving our petty dispute.
The timings you "estimated" for skipping sword are missing some key details.
Where are you going to get all of that money you need? There is a red rupee in zora's river that is 3-5 seconds out of the way. You might want that for your second deku stick. Then there is the fact that you HAVE to skip mido due to no sword. Just getting the skulltula to come out of the soil to megaflip off of is a 19-20 seconds (timed on console a TAS MIGHT be able to manipulate it for 15-17 seconds), but after that you are left with one deku stick. Doing the megaflip instead of the antigrav is definitely 4-5 seconds slower there too. Then there is the fact of the double death with gohma. You MIGHT be able to pull it off with isg, but I highly doubt it is possible since the deku stick's hitbox is in front of link if he has it out and putting it away would force you to 2 cycle making it slower. So let's back track, you would have to buy a 3rd deku stick from the shop so you could double death. Again that is about 5-7 seconds lost from picking up those extra rupees.
So as you can see, skipping deku stick is in fact slower than getting sword if we use your estimations and mine together. As an experienced OoT speedrunner I would assume most people here would trust my estimations over yours too :)
Not that it matters, but if you're doing mido skip with a megaflip, you could just kill the deku babas with isg, no?
@rog
You can't because I believe you need to JS to make it past there. If you don't have to do a JS to make it past mido after you are underwater then you would definitely use the babas for more deku sticks.
Grunz said once it would work without JS, but I guess he changed his mind.... like he does. :D
If you have to JS you can't kill the Babas, since Deku Stick won't harm them.
Biggest problem with stick route is the money. You need quite a bit for the shield and second stick. Without slicing bushes, that's going to be hard to get. For example you would have to get the chest in the Kakariko grotto.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
(Several posts split because of thread derailment)
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 7/12/2009
Posts: 181
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Synx wrote:
What makes you think/say that?
What gives you epona is leaving lon lon ranch by jumping the fences. If you do some bomb hovering and exit without using a horse, you still will epona.
What gives you epona is leaving lon lon ranch by jumping the fences. If you do some bomb hovering and exit without using a horse, you still will epona.
Your second sentence is true. You do get Epona with the bombhoveringtrick. I don't see how that makes your first sentence true though.
What gives you epona is leaving lon lon ranch by jumping the fences. If you do some bomb hovering and exit without using a horse, you still will epona.
Your second sentence is true. You do get Epona with the bombhoveringtrick. I don't see how that makes your first sentence true though.
Because it doesn't matter how you leave. If you leave over the fence, via any means, you get epona. Whether it's jumping over with epona, bomb hover, l to levitate, or jumping over with another horse.
What gives you epona is leaving lon lon ranch by jumping the fences. If you do some bomb hovering and exit without using a horse, you still will epona.
Your second sentence is true. You do get Epona with the bombhoveringtrick. I don't see how that makes your first sentence true though.
Because it doesn't matter how you leave. If you leave over the fence, via any means, you get epona. Whether it's jumping over with epona, bomb hover, l to levitate, or jumping over with another horse.
Ok. That makes sense.
btw: this is the most action we have had in this thread since spiderwaffle : D
