Post by MUGG

Posted: 9/25/2010 7:19 PM

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Niamek

Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 545
Location: Where?

ICheatAtGolf wrote:

What do you guys think of a 100% TAS?

I'm thinking this instead of the "true" 100 %: Don't collect the heart containters found on the map.(cost too much time Do all the mini games such as the archery games (it must be fun too see a master of the bow for example) Don't collect skulutas (cost too much time) Collect every weapons(hammer, etc.) Collect all bottles, bags, gauntlet.... COllect all the fairy powers Do all donjon In other words: forget the backtracking. It might be 4-5 hours.... I think

Posted: 9/25/2010 8:03 PM

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Kuwaga

Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1248

I think it will eventually be done, but it won't be started anytime soon. The one who'll do the run will then probably define what counts towards 100% and what doesn't. I'm for defining it so that entertainment is maximized (doesn't have to enter every room, doesn't have to open all chests, no RBA, not getting the same skultula twice, get 37th heart piece).

Posted: 9/25/2010 10:39 PM

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RingRush

Experienced player (520)

Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116

The definition for 100% is already rigorously defined among the Zelda speedrunning community. The only change you can really make a case for is having the 37th heart piece count in a TAS for entertainment value, but most people are against it. When I say it will never be made, I mean it is way too hard to optimize, and tricks are discovered way too frequently. Being one of the four people who wrote the current 100% real time route (which was obsoleted a few days after completion by a new trick that we since edited in), I know how painful it would be to come up with a perfect TAS route (especially with regards to bombs). Every new trick found during the run will threaten to change the route and make you start all over, or force you to redo large sections to conserve or get more explosives. The any% is roughly stable right now, significant tricks haven't been found in a while. This is how bloob was able to finish his run. But 100% is so long and has so many different things to take into consideration, that tricks are discovered pretty much whenever someone spends serious time looking. The SDA 100% is horribly outdated. If that was submitted right now, it'd be rejected in a heart beat. I'm not good at estimations, but I think the current 100% target time for real time would be at or around the 5 hour mark. For a TAS, maybe 4:15 or so would be the goal. Again, these are rough estimates, but it shows how much the game has evolved since even a year ago.

Posted: 9/25/2010 11:11 PM

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Niamek

Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 545
Location: Where?

Who said we can't devy a little bit? Well, I understand the meaning of 100 % in this game: 20 hearts, all object, all side quests, all skullutas, all donjon,. But the hearts and the spiders force too much backtracking. I suggest this: ignore them only. Well it's my opinion.

Posted: 9/25/2010 11:17 PM

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RingRush

Experienced player (520)

Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116

The point of watching a 100% run is to see hearts and skulltulas. Otherwise, you just have an any% or all temples run, both of which are on the site already (although the all temples run is pretty outdated). Furthermore, many, myself included, find GS collecting adds a lot to the run in terms of tricks and things that need to be accomplished. And if you manage them well and throw in a bunch of glitches and tricks, they actually don't take as much backtracking as you'ld think.

Posted: 9/25/2010 11:19 PM

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Niamek

Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 545
Location: Where?

True, i agree with you, but many people don't seem to like the idea of these two objects. There is some skullutas that is, to my knowloedge, impossible to do it wihout backtracking(there is one in the deku tree I guess)

Posted: 9/25/2010 11:22 PM

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RingRush

Experienced player (520)

Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116

You need some backtracking (notably for the GS in the Song of Storms hole by Zelda's castle), but not as much as you'ld think. For instance, the GS you mentioned could be obtained without backtracking by skipping the Deku Tree until after you have bombs and boomerang (as is done in the current 100% route). And as I said before, there is no point to watch a 100% run if you don't want to see GS or HP. They are what define 100% for the most part.

Posted: 9/25/2010 11:32 PM

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Aktan

Publisher

Joined: 4/23/2009
Posts: 1283

niamek wrote:

..all donjon,.

Do you mean dungeon?

Posted: 9/25/2010 11:33 PM

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Niamek

Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 545
Location: Where?

Oh sorry. Yes I was meaning dongeon. Since English it's not my first language, I tend to do some small mistakes here and here. Donjon is dongeon in French.

Posted: 9/26/2010 1:27 AM

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Tub

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377

RingRush wrote:

(although the all temples run is pretty outdated).

I've been re-watching the all temples run a week ago and was wondering how outdated it actually is. * it doesn't use the improved super slide techniques * using some of the any% skips anyway could be faster, because a cutscene is skipped (forest escape, DoT skip). * there's been lots of work on the cucco bottle route * there must be lots of small improvements in room strategies. There always are. Despite that, the general route looked pretty solid to my uninformed eyes. Are there any major route changes I don't know about? The Lullaby seems like a huge time-waster, but without BA there's only one way to get it. Postponing child dungeons to adult or doing adult dungeons as a child could help tighten the overworld-routes, but from what I read none of those worked out, right? Postponing a child-dungeon would skip the get-the-ocarina cutscene at the castle. Anything else?

m00

Posted: 9/26/2010 2:25 AM

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RingRush

Experienced player (520)

Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116

Below is a recent MST real-time segmented route. The TAS would obviously be a bit different, but this gives you a rough estimate.

MST Segmented Route v 5.0

Segment 1:
Intro
Sword + Rupees
Save, equip sword

Segment 2:
To shop + rupees
Shield
Pause: Equip Deku Shield
WESS escape
Fairy Ocarina
WESS in Hyrule Field
Cucco dive to well
Save

Segment 3:
Past skulltula with pokey strats
Deku Stick from pot
Actor glitch
Dead Hand + 99 Rupee chest (99 R)
Vine clip to Bombchus (10 C)
Equip bombchus on C-Right,Save

Segment 4:
Exit well
To Zora’s River
Knock down GS and HESS past rocks
Keep on ascendin’
Cucco past waterfall
Pot o’ nuts
Megasidehop past Fatass (9 C)
Jabu early jumpslash
Equip Deku Nuts on C-left, Save

Segment 5:
Chu first switch (8 C)
Ruto
Back up to the entry level, using Ruto on switchs
To Boomerang
Pause, equip boomerang on C-down
Bring Ruto back to second room
Ruto throw
Megaflip after her (7 C)
Place Ruto on switch, to next room
Chu switch and enter boss room (6 C)
Pause, equip Deku Sticks on C-right
Stick it to the man (also boomerang it to him)
Get HC, take blue warp (4 H)
Equip Chu on C-right, Save

Segment 6:
WESS escape again
Peahat SS to market
To castle
Damage self thrice with GS
Get over the moat with damage boostin’ (5 C)
Get past the TSDA clones
Lullaby with cutscene skip (4 C)
Re-enter market
Hylian Shield from bazaar [19 R]
To Temple of Time
DoT skipz
Hit puberty
Equip chus on C-down, equip Hylian Shield, Save

Segment 7:
To Hyrule Field
To Kakariko Village
To Graveyard
To Hookshot
To Chu SS warp to seam (3 C) 
Equip Hookshot on C-left, Save in Shadow Temple

Segment 8:
Hookshot first gap
Truth Spinner
To Hover Boots
Equip Hover Boots, Save

Segment 9:
Backwalk hover past the first two gaps
Pause, equip Kokiri Boots
Acute angle Jslash
Boat
Small Key & Boss Key
Chu Pillar (2 C)
Hover Boot across the invisible floor room
Get lucky and kill Bongo Bongo + HC (5 H) [Skip this HC if you can 2 cycle Volvagia w/ bk skip using only 8 hearts]
Back to Kakriko
Up to DM, enter DC
Save

Segment 10:
Blow up first wall (1 C)
Jump to first switch
Chu staircase (0 C)
Pause, equip bombs on C-down
To Bomb bag (20 B)
Bomb eyes (18 B)
Enter mouth
Jump to block, push it into hole
Bomb floor above KD  (17 B)
Two-cycle KD (15 B) 
Goron’s Ruby, get HC (6 H)
Up DM to magic (use seam + superslide, use Ocarina bomb trick while blowing up rock before fountain) (12 B)
Megaflip down, Bolero CS skip (10 B)
Megaflip again, head to Goron City (9 B)
Hookshot up, blow up rocks (Ocarina trick to take 5.5 H damage) (8 B)
Through Lost Woods, megaflip or HESS somewhere (7 B)
GJ to of maze (6 B)
Minuet CS skip (5 B)
Play Minuet
Hookshot up to Forest
Save

Segment 11:
Typical Forest route to bow (someone flesh this out, I’m lazy) (2 B)
Save

Segment 12:
BK skip
Phanton Gantom
Get Heart Container and blue warp (7 H)
SS clip into Deku tree (1 B)
Equip Deku Nuts on C-right, Save

Segment 13:
Hook to the top
Jump down + jslash reflection + web clip
Kill all scrubs
Now that you are an adult, show Gohma your nuts
HC and blue warp (8 H)
Save

Segment 14:
Exit market
SS to Hylia (0 B)
One spinslash, 3 bomb drops (15 B)
House clip and to Water
Equip Hover Boots, Bow on C-right, Save

Segment 15:
Hoverslide to far edge (14 B)
Water BK skp (9 B)
Morfaaa
Heart Container and Water Medallin (9 H)
Superswim to Fire Arrows (8 B)
Superswim back to shore (7 B)
Three bomb drops from grass (20 B)
To field
SS --> ESS to desert (19 B)
Hoverslide across bridge (18 B)
To GV
Save in fortress

Segment 16:
Get caught, Hoverslide gateskip (17 B)
Through the desert (add in an ESS somewhere(16 B)
Hover up to Seam outside of Spirit Temple (3 B)
Hookshot up to Silver Gauntlets chest
SS across to Mirror Shield (2 B)
Pause, equip Fire Arrows on C-right and Mirror Shield
Anubis + Beamos room [bomb drop from beamos] (6 B)
Hookshot clip face (5 B)
Spirit BK skip (2 B)
Twinrova + no HC
Equip Ocarina on C-right, Save

Segment 17:
Play Bolero
Bomb drop from rocks outside temple (7 B)
Enter Fire Temple
Darunia small key
Save

Segment 18:
Small keys in lava room (5 B)
Ride that block
Bomb push through wall (4 B)
Small key from nearby jail, climb up wall
Small key from other upper jail
SS through fire wall room (3 B)
Blow up door in front of flare dancer, break one bomb pot while waiting (7 B)
Kill Flare Dancer
Up to Megaton Hammer
Pause, equip Megaton Hammer on C-right, bow on C-left
Fire Temple BK skip (3 B)
Two cycle Volvagia 
Fire Medallion and save

Segment 19:
Light Arrow CS
Rainbow Bridge CS
Equip Fire Arrows on C-left, Save

Segment 20:
To Forest Trial
Light torchs w/ fire arrows
Pause, Equip Light Arrows on C-left, Hookshot on C-down
Silver rupee room
Destroy forest barrier
To Water Trial
Hookshot clip freezard
Bow clip second red ice
Destroy water barrier
Pause, Equip Fire Arrows C-left
To Shadow Trial
Fire arrow the torch, hit switch
Hookshot chest, Golden Gauntlets
Second part of Shadow w/o lens
Pause, Equip Light Arrows C-left, Bombs C-Down, Ocarina C-Right
Destroy shadow barrier
To Fire Trial
Collect rupees
Superslide w/ hover boots to get to end (2 B)
Destroy fire barrier
To Light Trial
Get keys, ZL
Pause, Equip Hookshot on C-Right
Silver rupees
Destroy light barrier
To Spirit Trial
Rupees in first room
Chu chest, Equip Chus on C-Right, Fire Arrows on C-left, chu switch
Burn web w/ fire arrows
Equip Light Arrows on C-left, Deku Nuts on C-right
Destroy spirit barrier
Enter upper castle and save

Segment 21:
Various enemy samplings
SS up spiral staircase (1 B)
LA SKIPZ (or use LA)
Crumbling castle
SS into Ganon to keep MS (0 B)
Prepare for the finishing blow and...
Game crash, internal battery runs dry, hahahahahahahahaha

Posted: 9/26/2010 2:59 AM

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ICheatAtGolf

Joined: 10/1/2007
Posts: 52

I personally would enjoy watching the collection of the skulltulas. I can think of many interesting ways a runner could get them, quickly utilizing weapons such as the boomerang and hookshot, maybe even bombs. It would add a lot to the entertainment value, seeing something like a megaflip through a gold token. The heart pieces as well. I'm sure there are many interesting and unconventional ways to get these. It would also be fun to watch the dungeons done with all the new tricks found; supersliding at every possible opportunity and the like. Supersliding up the Megaton Hammer staircase? Stuff like that is the reason I watch TAS's. Maybe in a few years when trick discoveries slow down, we can start hoping for one.

Posted: 9/26/2010 12:20 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (603)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

ringrush's route is still very different to the new all temples TAS route slowking and I created. there are many new tricks and breaks, which will give us a time around 2:25. means, you can save almost half an hour of bloob's TAS ;) and about the "hey, skulltula's take too long, skip them in 100%". ehm, where's the 100% then if you skip such important stuff? :/

Posted: 9/26/2010 3:08 PM

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Tub

Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377

thanks RingRush. So doing child dungeons as adult IS possible. That changes a lot indeed, including the preferred method for early explosives (spirit temple -> well).

Segment 10:
Megaflip down, Bolero CS skip (10 B) 
[..]
Segment 17:
Play Bolero

uh, what? Does that really work? MrGrunz: Could you please post/link your improved route, or is it totally secret(tm)?

m00

Posted: 9/26/2010 6:22 PM

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RingRush

Experienced player (520)

Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116

I specialize in real time routing for OoT, but I'd imagine the major differences in Grunz's route result from not savewarping (unless it saves a lot of time). I'm guessing he'll try to throw in odd mush forest temple cutscene skip...from what I found it doesn't save time in real time (since you need a bottle to do the trick), but maybe there is a special TAS strat to pull it off without a bottle. Or maybe he gets ruto's bottle. Another thing that we played around with was DC as child, but we deemed it not worth it. I wouldn't be surprised if a TAS could make it faster though, especially with the "BK skip". Grunz, if you don't want to share your route openly, can you PM it to me? Maybe I can find something that you forgot or suggest a faster alternative. @ Above post: Yeah, bolero CS skip gives you the bolero. Same with Lullaby CS skip, Minuet CS skip, and Serenade CS skip.

Posted: 9/26/2010 9:56 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (603)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

there's no problem with posting it apart from being lazy. I'll write it down on ZSR some time this week, I think. after well, we hover over the kakariko gate and go to DC. then we go to Zora's River via lost Woods by pre-loading the warp area.

Posted: 9/28/2010 7:18 AM

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n_slash_a

Joined: 9/9/2008
Posts: 20
Location: Texas, USA

RingRush wrote:

The point of watching a 100% run is to see hearts and skulltulas. Otherwise, you just have an any% or all temples run, both of which are on the site already (although the all temples run is pretty outdated). Furthermore, many, myself included, find GS collecting adds a lot to the run in terms of tricks and things that need to be accomplished. And if you manage them well and throw in a bunch of glitches and tricks, they actually don't take as much backtracking as you'ld think.

I completely agree with RingRush, the whole point of the 100% run IS to see the GS and HP collecting. Generally, I prefer to see 100% runs because of the added challenge of collection every item while minimizing backtracking.

Posted: 10/1/2010 10:43 PM

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TASeditor

Editor, Skilled player (1536)

Joined: 7/9/2010
Posts: 1319

most of a 100% TAS could work with the reserve bottle glitch. sounds a bit stupid, but propably it's faster.

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Posted: 10/2/2010 12:37 AM

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Zeupar

Joined: 5/14/2007
Posts: 525
Location: Pisces-Cetus filament

MUGG wrote:

I think RBA, BA and possibly DoT skip shouldn't be used in low% and 100%.

Why?

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Posted: 10/2/2010 12:43 AM

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RingRush

Experienced player (520)

Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116

TASeditor wrote:

most of a 100% TAS could work with the reserve bottle glitch. sounds a bit stupid, but propably it's faster.

No. Reverse Bottle Adventure is only used for the creation of bottles, and that would only be useful if we didn't have to get all the big poes (the current ruling, similar to the GS duplication glitch, is that we need to get all bottles normally). All other effects, such as those that obtain songs and medallions, both create AND delete items, rendering them either worthless or slower. There is absolutely no reason why DoT skip wouldn't be used in low%. I can't even imagine an argument on why it would be banned, so I don't really know how to counter that. But as I posted a few pages back, low% is ruined, no matter what you decide on RBA/BA. Low% MST already bans RBA/BA, so no issue arises there.

Posted: 10/2/2010 12:52 AM

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MUGG

Editor, Expert player (2330)

Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3933
Location: Germany

Zeupar wrote:

MUGG wrote:
I think RBA, BA and possibly DoT skip shouldn't be used in low% and 100%.
Why?

Because low% and 100% are about item completion. RBA and BA are glitches that help complete large portions of your inventory or get desired items (from what I've heard), through a normally illegitimate way. 100% should be about playing through the game and getting every items normally. Obtaining items with the use of a glitch just doesn't seem impressive in that regard (compare to 151 pokemon in the pokemon yellow TAS). About low% I heard that RBA and BA can't be used since they involve getting more items than required. But the point would still have been there: From a low% run I expect cleverness and interesting sequence breaks. I don't want a lame glitch to be used to beat the game with as few items as possible since that just doesn't feel like a 'true' low% run to me. DoT skip was just mentioned since I think it might help making those categories more 'true' if it isn't being used, but I'm actually undecided there.

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Posted: 10/2/2010 3:01 AM

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TheFrigz

Joined: 2/9/2006
Posts: 124

iirc, RBA adds some items but removes others, ie impossible to use in 100%...

Posted: 10/2/2010 12:49 PM

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Patashu

He/Him

Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4043

TheFrigz wrote:

iirc, RBA adds some items but removes others, ie impossible to use in 100%...

Right, because it's writing bytes to memory, and there's no way to write the 11111111 byte. On the other hand, you could use it early on if it only removes things you haven't yet gotten or are easy to reobtain.

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Posted: 10/2/2010 3:11 PM

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miseiler

Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 141

TheFrigz wrote:

iirc, RBA adds some items but removes others, ie impossible to use in 100%...

I'm pretty sure this has been hashed and rehashed in this thread before, but this argument doesn't work because the trading quest also does this. For my money, the strongest argument against RBA in 100% is no one would want to watch it. The best reason to do 100% in the first place is to see the TAS player being a complete badass longer, and to see him/her facing more interesting problems. Catching and releasing bugs does not qualify as "badass"

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