Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1248
When and how will magic be gotten? If the Nocturne isn't required it might maybe be faster to catch a fish in Zora's domain instead of getting a beatle. (graveyard being a huge detour sounds to me like it won't be used)
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Well it is a hughe detour at the beginning of the adault part. You are in Kakariko, but visiting the graveyard would cost you quite some time. At least a lot more than just buying a shield at Hyule market as a kid. I honestly don't know when magic is gotten. I'm not that familiar with the adault route. Edit: I read up on the adault route and you can only get magic at the end of the route, since you have to RBA ZL with the saw. But you need to get the shield at the beginning of adault or as a kid. Otherwise travel is going to be super slow. So the two don't have anything to do with eachother. Btw. what's the problem with getting bugs as an adault behind the skulltulla house?
Joined: 8/24/2009
Posts: 51
Nevermind, superoven's run answered me.
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1248
Slowking wrote:
Btw. what's the problem with getting bugs as an adault behind the skulltulla house?
There is no problem. I'm bad at making estaminations, but I guess with the current route using a fish would be slower anyway. You'd jump down the waterfall after talking to King Zora, then catch a fish and leave. A thing that totally favors catching the bug is that you could already glitch the quiver by instantly doing bottle B when catching it first. I'm merely pointing out the fish alternative because it could be overlooked easily, as there used to be routes where the fish option was totally out of the window. Magic can either be gotten after getting the saw or after getting the broken sword. The fastest way to the bridge after getting the saw might be to just walk there, or by using the Serenade first. I'd say using the Nocturne after getting the broken sword would be a pretty fast way to get near Death Mountain then. Then get magic, use the Prelude. After the saw, it might be possible to go through Goron City to get magic, if that's faster. Else, just use the Nocturne. Then use the Serenade to warp to Lake Hylia and go from there to the bridge, then use the Prelude. I have no idea what's fastest, but these are the possibilities I can think of. You only get the Nocturne if you use bugs, but they should be faster anyway.
Joined: 3/17/2009
Posts: 496
How much faster is the magic beans vs the hookshot+scarecrowsong route? Just curious
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Kuwaga wrote:
Magic can either be gotten after getting the saw or after getting the broken sword. The fastest way to the bridge after getting the saw might be to just walk there, or by using the Serenade first. I'd say using the Nocturne after getting the broken sword would be a pretty fast way to get near Death Mountain then. Then get magic, use the Prelude. After the saw, it might be possible to go through Goron City to get magic, if that's faster. Else, just use the Nocturne. Then use the Serenade to warp to Lake Hylia and go from there to the bridge, then use the Prelude. I have no idea what's fastest, but these are the possibilities I can think of. You only get the Nocturne if you use bugs, but they should be faster anyway.
Well it's probably best just to go from the lost woods to Goron City and from there to magic. Should be the fastest route. So no warpsong needed. After that you prelude of light yourself to tot and go to Gerudo Valley from there. At that point you long since have bombs so you can use a lot of SS-ESS combinations that should make the way pretty short.
Synx wrote:
How much faster is the magic beans vs the hookshot+scarecrowsong route? Just curious
Well nobody is going to time it, obviously. But quite some. You save time due to the fact that you don't have to have an Ocarina or bottle when you first visit Lake Hylia. So old forest escape is back in, even with ruto bottle. That saves time and since you get the shield again you can superslide a little, which also saves time. Then ofcourse you have the big timesaver as adault. You never visit the graveyard, so no introduction scene and no long race against Dampe. Ofcourse you will loose a little time here and there due to not having the hookshot. If you go through Goron city it will take you longer and in the lost woods you actually have to climb the ladder. But in the end that's really a lot less than what you save.
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116
Due to the controversial low% rulings at SDA, we at ZSR have drafted up another set of rules that govern items do and do not count. As of now, TASVideos does not have a specific ruling. The one concern noted so far is that 1a and 1c contradict eachother in a way, but that has been the accepted ruling for a while. Should that change? 1. Any item that appears in your Item Subscreen counts. (i.e. bottle, megaton hammer, light arrows) 1a. All items in the same slot (even if they are at different times) in your item subscreen count. (i.e. if you get Egg, then Cucco, it counts as two items; the same is true of hookshot and longshot, etc) 1b. Previous items are not assumed in any item. (i.e. if you get Zelda's Letter, you do not automatically get Egg and Cucco) 1c. Transforming an item into a bottle does NOT count as an additional item (i.e. turning Deku Sticks into a bottle with bottle duplication) 2. An item that appear on your Equipment Subscreen counts. (i.e. quiver, master sword, iron boots) 2a. Kokiri Boots and Tunic do not count, since they are obtained at the start and are never "collected". 2b. All items in the same slot (even if they are at different times) in your item subscreen count. (i.e. if you get Bomb Bag, then Big Bomb Bag, it counts as two items) 2c. As a clarification for 2b, Giant's Knife and Broken's Giant Knife are two different items. 2d. Previous items are not assumed in any item. (i.e. if you get Golden Scale, you do not automatically get Silver Scale) 3. Every Heart Container or Heart Piece counts as one item. 3a. The first three hearts you get do not count, since they are obtained at the start and are never "collected". 4. Any Great Fairy Gift counts as one item. (i.e. Magic, Double Magic, Double Defense) 5. Any wallet upgrade counts as one item. (i.e. Giant's Wallet) 5a. The starting wallet does not count, since it is obtained at the start and is never "collected". 6. Any song learned counts as one item. (i.e. Song of Time, Zelda's Lullaby) 6a. Scarecrow's Song counts as one item. 7. Any Medallion or Spiritual Stone counts as one item. (i.e. Light Medallion, Kokiri Emerald) 8. Gerudo License and Stone of Agony count as one item each. 9. Each Golden Skulltula token collected counts as one item. Any reward from the Gold Skulltula House counts based on the other rules. (i.e. Adult's Wallet counts, silver rupee does not) 10. Ammunition does not count as an item. (i.e. arrows, nuts) 10a. To clarify, ammunition-in-themsleves items, such as Deku Nuts and Deku Sticks, do count as one item when they are first picked up. 10b. Anything caught in a bottle is considered "ammunition" and is not counted as an item. (i.e. bugs, fish, poe) 10c. All types of rupees are classified as ammunition 11. Dungeon items do not count as an item. (i.e. Small Keys, Boss Keys, Dungeon Maps, Compasses) 12. Any item obtained in the fishing pond does not count as an item. (i.e. fishing pole, fisherman's hat, 6 lb fish, sinking lure) 12a. If the item obtained would count under a previous rule, it is still counted. (i.e. Heart Piece, Golden Scale) 13. If an item is lost and then regained, it is not counted again. (i.e. burning a Deku Shield and buying another, getting a hylian shield back from a Like Like) 14. If an item that would count under a previous rule appears on B, it counts as obtaining that item. 15. Deleting an item through RBA or any other means does not remove the item from your count.
Player (117)
Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 700
Location: suffern, ny
that seems like a lot to keep track of.
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
Dwedit
He/Him
Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 692
Location: Chicago
Why should the Giant's Knife count at all? Its whole purpose is basically a trick played on people who aren't aware of Biggoron's sword.
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Dwedit wrote:
Why should the Giant's Knife count at all? Its whole purpose is basically a trick played on people who aren't aware of Biggoron's sword.
item is item ;) oh and it's way more likely to see giant's knife in a low% than biggorons sword, because giant's knife allows you to clip past the DoT as adult again, when you did DoT skip as child. actually, the ruling is really easy to understand. we created a non-TAS route a while back already. I think, I'll post it here soon. all I can say about it is, that it's a really entertaining route, especially in the child section, becazse it's filled with sick tricks most of you guys have never even seen before ;) on the entertaining side the any% run is a joke compared to the low% run.
arflech
He/Him
Joined: 5/3/2008
Posts: 1120
1c can be another clause in 1a, like "except when an item is replaced by a bottle via the duplication glitch" Also all instances of "i.e." (id est, "that is") should be replaced with "e.g." (exempli gratia, "by way of example")
i imgur com/QiCaaH8 png
Joined: 10/20/2006
Posts: 1248
I don't know if I agree with 2d. I'd say that there are lots of people who would regard a run that only gets silver scale as lower% than a run that only gets the gold scale. Of course if it gets both it would be higher% than gold only though. But something seems wrong about the scenario of getting golden gauntlets and having it counted as only one item, as it enables the player to bypass all hindrances that have been set up for three distinct items. Counting it as three also seems too high though. I'd propose counting every skipped "lower level form" of an item as something between 0 and 1 items. I'd probably make it either 0.33, 0.5 or 0.75. It just doesn't seem fair to me if it's calculated otherwise.
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116
V2 of the ruling is up, fixing the i.e./e.g. thing, and adding a few more technicalities (such as bottle duping over an empty item slot). The ruling on 1b/2d will have to be discussed further before a change is made.
1. Any item that appears in your Item Subscreen counts. (e.g. bottle, megaton hammer, light arrows)
1a. All items in the same slot (even if they are at different times) in your item subscreen count. (e.g. if you get Egg, then Cucco, it counts as two items; the same is true of hookshot and longshot, etc)
1b. Previous items are not assumed in any item. (e.g. if you get Zelda's Letter, you do not automatically get Egg and Cucco)
1c. Transforming an item into a bottle does NOT count as an additional item (e.g. turning Deku Sticks into a bottle with bottle duplication)
1d. Using bottle duplication to get a bottle on an empty slot does NOT count as an additional item

2. An item that appear on your Equipment Subscreen counts. (e.g. quiver, master sword, iron boots)
2a. Kokiri Boots and Tunic do not count, since they are obtained at the start and are never "collected".
2b. All items in the same slot (even if they are at different times) in your item subscreen count. (e.g. if you get Bomb Bag, then Big Bomb Bag, it counts as two items)
2c. As a clarification for 2b, Giant's Knife and Broken's Giant Knife are two different items.
2d. Previous items are not assumed in any item. (e.g. if you get Golden Scale, you do not automatically get Silver Scale)

3. Every Heart Container or Heart Piece counts as one item.
3a. The first three hearts you get do not count, since they are obtained at the start and are never "collected".

4. Any Great Fairy Gift counts as one item. (e.g. Magic, Double Magic, Double Defense)

5. Any wallet upgrade counts as one item. (e.g. Giant's Wallet)
5a. The starting wallet does not count, since it is obtained at the start and is never "collected".

6. Any song learned counts as one item. (e.g. Song of Time, Zelda's Lullaby)
6a. Scarecrow's Song counts as one item.

7. Any Medallion or Spiritual Stone counts as one item. (e.g. Light Medallion, Kokiri Emerald)

8. Gerudo License and Stone of Agony count as one item each.

9. Epona and the cow in Link's house count as one item each.

10. Each Golden Skulltula token collected counts as one item. Any reward from the Gold Skulltula House counts based on the other rules. (e.g. Adult's Wallet counts, silver rupee does not)

11. Ammunition does not count as an item. (e.g. arrows, nuts)
11a. To clarify, ammunition-in-themsleves items, such as Deku Nuts and Deku Sticks, do count as one item when they are first picked up.
11b. Anything caught in a bottle is considered "ammunition" and is not counted as an item. (e.g. bugs, fish, poe)
11c. All types of rupees are classified as ammunition

12. Dungeon items do not count as an item. (e.g. Small Keys, Boss Keys, Dungeon Maps, Compasses)

13. Any item obtained in the fishing pond does not count as an item. (e.g. fishing pole, fisherman's hat, 6 lb fish, sinking lure)
13a. If the item obtained would count under a previous rule, it is still counted. (e.g. Heart Piece, Golden Scale)

14. If an item is lost and then regained, it is not counted again. (e.g. burning a Deku Shield and buying another, getting a hylian shield back from a Like Like)

15. If an item that would count under a previous rule appears on B, it counts as obtaining that item.

16. Deleting an item through RBA or any other means does not remove the item from your count.
Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
Do you have a link to sda's rules? I couldn't find the respective thread, and they're not mentioned on the game page either. Anyway, I don't think RBA, item duplication and other inventory-affecting glitches should be used in runs that aim for specific amounts of items collected (low% or 100%). That reduces the amount of special rules needed by half and makes for a run that actually achieves it's goal instead of bending it. Other than that, I think the list is fine because it's consistent with the 100% definition - everything you'd expect the player to get in a 100% run counts against you in low% (items, songs, hearts, ..), while anything not needed for a 100% does not (ammo, rupees, multiple shields, ..). The only special case being upgradeable items like silver scale and hookshot which only count when actually picked up.
m00
Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635
I still think the Maps and Compasses (and possibly the Boss Key, provided it's not expended when used) should count toward 100%.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
So, now that we have a route are you guys going to start the any% TAS?
Player (79)
Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Utah
I think Mr Grunz is still working on it. He did show us a WIP.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Hmm what? Grunz was working on a MST TAS and he droped it a long time ago to TAS MM. o.O
Player (79)
Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 873
Location: Utah
Woah, I got the topics mixed up, my bad. :P But seriously, didn't the ones working on it say they would wait for Mupen64plus?
Joined: 3/17/2009
Posts: 496
Swordless pretty much said he would never continue working on the old TAS
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Nobody is gonna work on this!
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Player (117)
Joined: 5/13/2009
Posts: 700
Location: suffern, ny
If i knew what to do I would attempt it.
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
Active player (499)
Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 682
Everything will be fine, don't worry.
Joined: 3/17/2009
Posts: 496
Come on Swordless! We all know you are the only person capable of getting the ball rolling on this
Joined: 1/3/2006
Posts: 334
Swordless Link wrote:
Everything will be fine, don't worry.
Statement of the year :D