Submission Text Full Submission Page
Objectives:
 - Complete all unique content (plays until no new content appears)
 - Ends input as soon as possible
Note: Due to an emulator bug in Mednafen (all versions), this game will not correctly sync from startup. The movie file *is* from startup, but will desync immediately. To sync this run, you must load the included savestate in slot 1, which starts after the loading screen is complete. I first attempted to work around this problem in early 2013 but there appear to be no Mednafen developers left. See my forum posts following this point regarding the sync issues associated with this game: Forum/Posts/342190
I checked with several site staff members over the past year and they agreed independently that this run would be submittable based on my proof that the run properly starts from power-on. I hope they remember me asking this, however... :)

About the game

This TAS completes all unique content of the Atari Lynx port of the classic arcade game Joust. The flight mechanics of Joust have always been a bit difficult to master, but with the aid of TAS tools the flight mechanics become eas... who am I fooling, it makes them even more challenging to master with any adeptness, albeit a lot more fun. It's possible to flap two frames and pause two frames to get significant lift in the Lynx port, but the only way to go fast down is to hit your head hard going up and the mechanics of doing that can be incredibly difficult to get right. In the end, the result is something that is impossible in real life and in my opinion makes it look like the flight controls are top-notch.
I start by demonstrating how fast the mount can get from the bottom to the screen to the top, subsequently demonstrating that both mount and rider must be helmed as they crash into the top of the playfield with enough speed to ricochet to the bottom in time for the first enemy to appear. (It is at this point that the desync noted above will happen; if you do not load the savestate, you will fly over the lower central platform and nothing will be right again; loading the savestate in slot 1 will allow the run to continue normally). Getting the timing right to be above the enemy on the first frame it could be killed was incredibly challenging as the enemy spawn code seems to have been written to avoid placing them in your flight path. I spent literally hours on this before finding a decent solution, and I spent far more time on manipulating the spawn locations than anything else.
Winning in combat is a matter of being higher vertically than your opponent at the moment of impact at which point an egg is dropped, the enemy rider disappears, and their mount flies off. The egg must be collected to continue on to the next wave which means 6 things must be hit in the first wave (3 riders, 3 eggs). Each subsequent wave adds more enemies (aside from an egg wave which sprouts none) and no new content appears after wave 9 where I stop the TAS.
The number of rerecords in this TAS doesn't include the many thousands of attempts I made in other files while trying to sort out the desync problem. I had a significant challenge with Mednafen as the order that must be used to get the emulator to not destroy the movie file is a bit specific. This file will play back properly on either Mednafen on Windows version 1.1 or on Linux revision r144.
Overall, the Lynx version of Joust consumed the most time for me of any of the Joust ports and was the most challenging and annoying to perform luck manipulation on. I hope no one ever has to do this ever again, for their sake, but there are some potential improvements for anyone who dares - it's very likely that the spawn locations in particular can be better in some places, and this is the kind of game that can be pecked to death with 1-frame improvements (no pun intended). Overall, I'm satisfied with how this version turned out. Enjoy!

Nach: Some parts of this run looked really well polished, but others looked like glaring mistakes. In any case, this run is incomplete, as the rules state the criteria for completion is as follows: "Games that loop endlessly can still be defined. The completion point is one where there is no new content, and the game is no longer increasing in difficulty."
Since the game does increase in difficulty for later waves with more distractions from the pterodactyl, and spawning enemies which move considerably faster, I am deeming this run incomplete. Several more waves need to be played, and a later cycle must be reached. Rejecting.


TASVideoAgent
They/Them
Moderator
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 15603
Location: 127.0.0.1
This topic is for the purpose of discussing #4433: dwangoAC's Lynx Joust in 02:14.93
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4045
When's Arcade Joust?
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Experienced player (589)
Joined: 2/5/2011
Posts: 1417
Location: France
Didn't knew Lynx could be TASed :o
Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand
Skilled player (1672)
Joined: 7/1/2013
Posts: 448
Patashu wrote:
When's Arcade Joust?
As much as I would love to see (or TAS) this, MAME videos are not accepted here. Please change this policy! :)
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (907)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Patashu wrote:
When's Arcade Joust?
I submitted all these "sandbagged" runs to get them off my plate so I can focus on AGDQ. I started an Atari 7800 port run but I don't believe I will complete it any time soon, if ever.
£e Nécroyeur wrote:
As much as I would love to see (or TAS) this, MAME videos are not accepted here. Please change this policy! :)
There's always Final Burn Alpha which is an accepted Arcade emulator, but I do not know if Joust will work. Thanks for the interest, though!
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
morningpee
They/Them
Player (56)
Joined: 11/28/2013
Posts: 119
Quick, someone make a rerecording version of VirtualBox and TAS Slugman
Projects: Tetris DS Genesis Toys: Let the Toy Wars Begin
Skilled player (1672)
Joined: 7/1/2013
Posts: 448
dwangoAC wrote:
There's always Final Burn Alpha which is an accepted Arcade emulator, but I do not know if Joust will work. Thanks for the interest, though!
Yes, I know Final Burn Alpha all too well. But while Final Burn Alpha supports 2,686 original games, MAME supports 6,283 original games. To summarize, Final Burn Alpha does not support Joust. MAME does support Joust. And Joust 2: Survival of the Fittest. And every other Williams classic. :)
Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
£e Nécroyeur wrote:
Patashu wrote:
When's Arcade Joust?
As much as I would love to see (or TAS) this, MAME videos are not accepted here. Please change this policy! :)
Does it have a stable rerecording already? I think MAME-rr project was abandoned a few years ago. But even if it was, there was that guy, mz, who saw the code for the first time, fixed a few bugs in fceu, and then added rerecording to PCSX and FBA out of nowhere! Probably if you have that dedication, you can help the MAME situation too :) Or maybe it had some chance to be BizHawked? EDIT: From what I was told, MAME is basically "own core for each set of hardware" and neither of them was designed with rerecording in mind. So you add rerecording to games, like in hourglass, not to the whole platform.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 11/2/2013
Posts: 10
feos wrote:
£e Nécroyeur wrote:
Patashu wrote:
When's Arcade Joust?
As much as I would love to see (or TAS) this, MAME videos are not accepted here. Please change this policy! :)
Does it have a stable rerecording already? I think MAME-rr project was abandoned a few years ago. But even if it was, there was that guy, mz, who saw the code for the first time, fixed a few bugs in fceu, and then added rerecording to PCSX and FBA out of nowhere! Probably if you have that dedication, you can help the MAME situation too :) Or maybe it had some chance to be BizHawked? EDIT: From what I was told, MAME is basically "own core for each set of hardware" and neither of them was designed with rerecording in mind. So you add rerecording to games, like in hourglass, not to the whole platform.
There is a version that was released in June 2013 but I think that its just a port to Linux. The most recent version of MAME-RR is mame-rr-0144-test0 but there is also mess-rr-0144-test0 and mame-mess-rr-0144-test0-src released in Nov 2011 EDIT: The most recent source code release is r163 released Oct. 20 2012
Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Yeah, those are what mz (and co.) did. I don't know anything about how stable it is, but if £e Nécroyeur can make a TAS with it, then we have what to talk about! :)
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warepire
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
feos wrote:
From what I was told, MAME is basically "own core for each set of hardware" and neither of them was designed with rerecording in mind. So you add rerecording to games, like in hourglass, not to the whole platform.
Hourglass simulates WinAPI calls, it's more like a debugger layer. It does not work on a game-to-game approach. The reason it doesn't work with most games is because it's incomplete.
fsvgm777
She/Her
Senior Publisher, Player (226)
Joined: 5/28/2009
Posts: 1215
Location: Luxembourg
So I encoded this TAS. 10bit444 encode (MKV) Compatibility MP4
Steam Community page - Bluesky profile Oh, I'm just a concerned observer.
Joined: 11/2/2013
Posts: 10
feos wrote:
Yeah, those are what mz (and co.) did. I don't know anything about how stable it is, but if £e Nécroyeur can make a TAS with it, then we have what to talk about! :)
Oh i did not know that. That is cool to find out.
Skilled player (1672)
Joined: 7/1/2013
Posts: 448
feos wrote:
Yeah, those are what mz (and co.) did. I don't know anything about how stable it is, but if £e Nécroyeur can make a TAS with it, then we have what to talk about! :)
Well! I'm glad this did not require its own Discussion thread. I only wanted to feel that my efforts would not be entirely in vain before I attempted in earnest to TAS on MAME. I would be happy to give you something to talk about! After I finish my current TAS itinerary, of course... :)
Skilled player (1672)
Joined: 7/1/2013
Posts: 448
feos wrote:
From what I was told, MAME is basically "own core for each set of hardware" and neither of them was designed with rerecording in mind. So you add rerecording to games, like in hourglass, not to the whole platform.
Thankfully, it would not be *quite* as tedious as adding per-game support for rerecording. It's true that each master hardware set has its own core, but many master hardware sets support multiple games. For example, the core for Capcom CPS-1 hardware supports 35 original games, including Strider and the Street Fighter II series. SNK Neo MVS hardware supports 171 original games, including Magician Lord and the Metal Slug series.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Yes, it appears savestates are mostly present for different drivers, but some are incomplete, hence not sync-stable. Frankly, adding proper savestates to drivers is on MAME's own list of easiest things one can contribute to the initial code. But there's nowhere to ask them, if they would want rerecording internally, so we should enjoy adding it in a fork for now. They say, most drivers _were_ designed with savestates in mind, but not all of them have them complete. So it's not "adding savestate logic from scratch to everything". http://www.mamedev.org/devwiki/index.php?title=Save_State_Fundamentals
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11486
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Re: this run. Recently I asked the staff on IRC about which movie files are considered to "sync", and the Judge guideline was brought up:
The input file should sync properly on an approved version of a rerecording emulator. Being an approved version means it can be downloaded from the official website as a packaged release. Development builds don't count as such (unless it's a messy base like Dolphin). Any settings necessary for sync should be documented in the submission properly (edit the submission to include this information if necessary). The settings chosen must be considered legal, and not used to hack the game in some way. If the submission does not sync on at least one official release, it must be rejected (unless there is an unavoidable exception). If it syncs for someone other than the author, it is still valid (so that games/emulators that require similar OS/computer specs to be deterministic have a chance).
I'm really curious how someone earlier have said that runs that don't sync on any official emulator builds (except it's a special case like Dolphin), but only sync with a savestate, are legit. Probably mednafen is such a special case, but still, it should have been an emulator fixed to sync this run, not the savestate way. Please discuss!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Active player (477)
Joined: 2/1/2014
Posts: 928
I say as long as the packaged download contains the savestate or proper instructions on how to run the game (as long as instructions are simplistic and consistent), yes you should be able to get approved/accepted.
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2649)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6444
Location: The land down under.
I say it's fine as it is. As long as everything provided. Or else it could be a Famtasia TAS where you're searching through the entire internet headless looking for a specific bios for a Famtasia Famicon TAS. In other words: Everything is provided its good. Bios sharing don't do it, it's illegal go in the internet to find it don't ask.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (907)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Right - in this case, the submission file contains everything required to sync the game, and it is the *same* movie file. I spent over a year trying to find a developer to fix the emulator without success and while I compiled from source and successfully ran the game I was never able to find out what subtle problem caused the desync and came to the conclusion that even if I did figure it out no one would likely accept a run that didn't sync on their version of Mednafen. I was just thankful that it was possible to get something to sync at all! Oh, the life of an Exotic Platforms TAS'er. :)
I was laid off in May 2023 and became too ill to work this year and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD is stalled. I'm dwangoAC, TASVideos Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; when healthy, I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
TASVideosGrue
They/Them
Joined: 10/1/2008
Posts: 2789
Location: The dark corners of the TASVideos server
om, nom, nom... *burp*!