For those who think SMB not glitchy enough

After two and a half years of hard work, and more than 100000 times of re-record count, I'm so happy to share my latest finished projects with you. This is one of the hardest and craziest tasks I can think of, and would be the only movie that I wouldn't dare to remake. The goal is to complete all stages (including the hidden 2-1, 3-1 and 4-1 according to priority) of one of the hardest SMB hacks in the fastest time. It's 3 minutes and 44 seconds faster than Mushroom's incomplete run (just in World 1), and it improved Mars608's last speedrun for 6232 frames (103.7 seconds).
Hard Relay Mario (ips patch download, thanks to fsvgm777 and Nach) is once the hardest SMB hacks ever (beaten by MMM later), created by 6 remarkable Japanese hacker including Mana, and U1 (the creator of Air). It's mainly a well designed trial for players' brains and skills, and requires all the glitches and techniques you can use in order to complete the levels. It's better to view it as a platform puzzle game when watching, then the TAS is about how to break and solve that difficult puzzle in the fastest time.
Only few small changes are made to the original SMB engine: spikes (a new kind of object which immediately kills you when you touch its hitbox, no matter how big you are), climbing clouds (just like vines for climbing, shown in 1-3 and 1-5), marked hidden coin blocks, short Fire Bar (changed from long Fire Bar), and Bowser is changed to a quick moving target who lost his ability to spit fire. So basically every trick performed in the run can be produced in the original SMB with the same landscape.
To defeat such a hack could be tough or impossible for newcomers, but to me the hardest part is to optimize every movement to reach the speed limit, which requires thousands of attempts and lots of mathematical calculation, and a great amount of knowledge about SMB system for you ought to know exactly what you're doing all the time. Thus, it has given me a lot of headaches over the past 2 years, but I'm glad that I made it through just the way I planned it, and satisfied by the result.
I know there are people who'd vote no for bad game choice even before watching, and not many people can fully understand this run, but I still insist on submitting it to TASVideos, simply because I think TASVideos deserves a run like this. It is intended to obsolete the current Air demonstration. It may sound strange at first, but my reasons are listed as follows:
  • Hard Relay Mario and Air are basically the same type of hacks, and they even have a same creator U1, so we'd better just keep one publication in principle.
  • Obviously Air 2 is not suitable for making great speedruns, because there are way too many designing loopholes that leads to breakthroughs, and taking a shortcut through the maze is too simple and not entertaining enough to watch, so the current publication is more like a playaround with no exact goal. As new glitches and new techniques are found, I think the current Air run is out of date. One day when I chatted with Mars608 he told me he wanted to find a new TAS project to be busy with, and I said, "why not Air? I bet you can easily make a much better playaround as long as you want to." A few days later, Mars608 said with sorrow, "sorry but I just don't know how to do it. There's almost nothing to perform in a hack like this." I considered for a while and he was right. There really isn't much to show in the barren land of Air 2. So as I see, Air 2 can neither make great speedruns nor playarounds.
  • I have played so many SMB1 hard hacks, including MMM, LLL, ORZ, β Mario series, Athletic series, and among them, Hard Relay Mario is regarded as the best-designed judging not only by difficulty but also by level quality and details, a true masterpiece. Although it does have a few loopholes, taking shortcuts still needs lots of brains and skills, making it suitable to make good speedruns.
  • Lots of crazy tricks and new techniques can be performed in this run. Compared to it, Air 2 haven't really shown anything interesting.
  • In my opinion, 2 publications on TASVideos for SMB1 hacks are probably enough. The best combination might be, one with brilliant maps and special effects (Extra Mario Bros), and the other with outrageous difficulty and clever designs (Hard Relay Mario).
To describe every technical details might turn the submission text into a long dissertation, and it's way beyond my English ability, so I'll make it simple to just list tricks and level comments for those who'd like to know. I know there must be people who can't understand when watching, and would probably go like, "hey, why'd you do that? Wouldn't it be easier and faster to just..." One thing I'd like to emphasize is, I didn't make any technical mistakes, not even little ones. I chose the fastest routes in theory. Every jump is accurate, and every move is well-planed. Once you believe that, it doesn't matter whether you can understand, it's whether you want to. Feel free to compare the original solution (videos can be found on YouTube) to mine and see the improvements.

Part of tricks used in this run

  • Walljump (54 times in total)
  • Glitching through walls (in lots of different ways, I don't know how to name each of them separately in English)
  • Keeping jumping speed after hitting a wall (by not pressing direction keys and not landing longer than 1 frame, mostly used to jump through walls above)
  • Jumping after catching a power-up in the air
  • Manipulation of screen X position through walls and dithering in the air (used very often in this run)
  • Going through Fire Bars on the right side of the screen (used in 1-1 and 1-8)
  • Koopa walking in mid-air (used 3 times in 1-1, 1-5 and 1-9)
  • Moonwalk (mostly used to entertain)
  • Flagpole glitch (from the right side, using a shell, making the flag disappear by revealing an mushroom, etc)
  • Walking inside enemies
  • Stomping enemies on the bottom of the screen when Mario's above the screen (as the high and low sides are connected in SMB, used once in 1-9)
  • Getting hurt by a Fire Bar after flagpole
  • Going through spikes (only safe when your head is in the wall and not jumping, just like in SMB you may skip coins while your head is in the wall)
  • Lifts pulled down turning invisible above the screen
  • Jumping through walls above after hitting enemies from below (used in 1-A where the Lakitu drops Spinies)
  • Jumping through lifts
  • Falling into the hole after toughing the axe

Level-by-level comments

1-1
An obstruction where there are 2 Fire Bars was glitched through, and you can clearly see I went through them on the right side of the screen. The last half of the level mainly tests the usage of Koopa walking in mid-air, for 2 giant leaps are made with the help of the Koopa afterwards, and a part of time waiting was saved compared to the original solution. The flagpole can only be safely grabbed when it's on the left side of the screen, and using the flagpole glitch saved 42 frames (thanks to Mars608).
1-2
A very short level without much difficulty, but the flagpole part was designed more cleverly than it seems.
1-3
At the beginning, the route with a Goomba and 2 Beetles is slightly faster than going through the wall. I stayed on the climbing clouds for several more frames to adjust screen X position, preparing for getting hit on purpose from a Bullet Bill. Fireworks are avoided.
1-4
Another obstruction with 2 abreast Piranha plants was quickly glitched through using the trick of keeping jumping speed. I did several walljumps to have fun while waiting where there are 2 Pirana plants on 2 separate blocks, and I avoided both of them just in one time (previous solutions takes at lease two times). There's a fake flagpole right before the real one, and Mario would fall in the hole after grabbing the fake one, but it's still able to reach the next level after a extremely long period of screen scrolling (not shown in this run).
1-5
The first half of the level is also about dealing with a Koopa, and I performed a lot during kicking the shell and waiting. After entering the pipe, I went through the wall to save time just like Mars608 did in his run, but I also manipulated screen X position through the wall and climbing the clouds quickly while ducking the Pirana plant and Fire Bars. That was a extremely tough route, that I almost thought to be impossible after many attempts, and it turned out to be just nearly impossible. I managed to escape narrowly with the help of pressing up and left together to avoid being pushed out from the screen when climbing the cloud.
1-6
Spikes showed up after this level. 2 major time-saving shortcut were made through the maze. The first one was I found a way to avoid getting hurt, by doing a walljump on the spike and slide through the narrow way (see the screenshot below), saving lots of time while keeping big body to 1-8. The other shortcut skipped nearly half of the level, by performing a shell glitch on a flagpole that's intended to be fake, which is the fastest but not the only way to skip the rest part of the level. The other solution is to push Mario to the right side of the screen through walls, grab the flag and it would translate you to the left side of the screen to proceed with time calculation. The shell glitch is much more difficult, for doing a shell glitch on the right side of the flagpole is completely different from left (just like 3-1 in my SMB warpless run). In fact, it was an idea I had thought about before but failed after hundreds of attempts, and after then I consider it impossible. I wanted to try to prove it to be truly impossible while making this run so I could quit thinking about it, but instead I calculated and managed to find a value of Y subpixel that could make it happen, making me so thrilled. It's funny that the Koopa put near the fake flagpole for fun can be used for a time-saving shortcut.
1-7
The shortest level with mainly just a flagpole. The original solution to the flagpole was a little complex, that required using the spring more than twice, but I simplified it into a few seconds with the advantage of big Mario. The reveal of the poison mushroom made the flag disappear, the invisible coin block on the left is necessary for time calculation, the lift on the right made Mario stop to hang on the pole, and together they saved Mario from dying after grabbing the flagpole. Fireworks are avoided.
1-8
At the beginning I used the Fire Flower for jumping through the wall to save time. Accurate manipulation of screen X was made after then, and going through the Fire Bar made the largest breakthrough of the run (thanks to Mars608).
1-9
A large part of the level was easily skipped owning to the advantage of big Mario, for 1-9 was intended to be designed for small Mario after getting hurt from the Fire Bar in 1-8. Getting hurt was inevitable in the end after the first time grabbing the flagpole due to the Fire Bar, and Mario would be controllable again so you had to grab the same pole for the second time before time reached to zero.
1-A
The hardest and longest level, taking me a long time to finish it. A new route at the beginning was discovered to save time. During the whole process of getting the mushroom, manipulation of screen X was made to make the Fire Bar above the lift show earlier. Mario jumped through the 8 invisible blocks in a new strategy using the trick of keeping jumping speed. I found a new route of going through the wall and spikes to pull down the second balance lift, which was a slightly faster strategy compared to the original one. I managed to skip the whole mushroom part by passing the Fire Bar while the invisible period after getting hurt. Heavy luck manipulation were made before the boss fight in order to kill Bowser as quickly as possible, for the upgraded Bowser was more aggressive and had a HP of 32.
2-1
After finishing World 1, hidden worlds became available. 2-1 was a level made of letters expressing "Hard Relay Mario". The biggest time-saving shortcut was the giant jump when getting the mushroom at the letter "I".
3-1
A level designed for testing walljumps, as there is not a single landing spot throughout the stage. The hardest part was to manipulate each time Fire Bars showing up, by adjusting the screen X position. The starting position of the last Fire Bar rested with the ending position of the second Fire Bar, so I bumped into a wall once while falling to delay the disappearing time of the second Fire Bar.
4-1
The final boss fight, basically the very same stage as the end of 1-A, but the lifts were shorter, making the Bowser fight a bit longer. The movie file ended at the frame touching the final axe, just like regular SMB runs.

Screenshots

The screenshot in 3-1 is recommended.

Credits

Special thanks to Mars608, for making his previous Hard Relay Mario runs, and helping a lot, including reminding me to use flagpole glitch for 1-1, demonstrating the possibility to go through the Fire Bar in 1-8, and help testing in 1-3 and 1-A.
And all the friends at TASVideos. Thank you for spending these wonderful years together.
Have fun watching. :)

Nach: This is yet another one of those hacks where the aesthetics are horrible, and the design is all in the name of difficulty. Although, the game is of a different genre than most such hacks, in that it's really a bizarre kind of puzzle game.
Much of the run is pigeon-holed into doing one thing, and therefore a TAS isn't all that different from normal play, but on the other hand, looks quite amazing since tons of glitches are forced to be used. This gives us the unusual scenario where people who don't know the hack well can't appreciate some of the creativity, but are amazed by things which aren't special. With the opposite side, the situation is reversed, those who know the hack well see much of the creativity that others can't, but are not impressed by the sections where there's only a single solution.
Based on the feedback for this run, I find it too subpar to really be worthy of the moon tier, yet the vault tier does not allow for hacks. However, we currently have an Air run published (which I would have personally rejected), which did not get nearly as good feedback or as many yes votes as this current run. Therefore, I'm accepting this run to obsolete that one.
Guga: Processing...


adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3574)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
I enjoyed this hack and resulting TAS more than Air 2 In comparison, the hack is more professionally done, shows a deeper understanding of SMB physics, and is more extreme. And the TAS hows a lot more effort, it has 100k rerecords and LOOKS like it has 100k rerecords.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Expert player (2573)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831
AngerFist wrote:
A big reason for that is the game relies too much on the turtle to move, thus it ruins the pace.
Spikestuff wrote:
I'll blame the waiting on Koopa too killing the entertainment.
I see some people don't like waiting on Koopa. Well please don't blame me for I hate to be a ruiner on entertainment and I did my best to entertain during waiting time, and I don't blame the hack or the designers either, because designs using Koopa glitches are pretty normal in SMB hard hacks. I think it's just a very small part of the run, which is not worth focusing on. MMM (currently the hardest SMB hack ever) used the Koopa A LOT more compared to Hard Relay Mario, then I guess the speedrun of MMM (by Mars608) might be unbearable for some. How about thinking it this way, the Koopa is one of the keys to solve the puzzle, and it's wating on Koopa that makes it different than a regular speedrun. For a speedrun that only breaks the game in only one pace the whole time might be not interesting to watch. Or think of it as an autoscrolling section.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
HappyLee wrote:
I think it's just a very small part of the run, which is not worth focusing on.
I think this is a key point here. Sure, waiting for the Koopa to revive is annoying, but what percentage of the run does it take up, ~2% of the ~8 minutes? If something this miniscule bothers someone to the extent they think it drags down the entire rest of the movie, then they probably need some kind of therapy. I mean seriously, even our best runs have moments of small down time waiting for a boss to awaken or something else of this nature. Did we get so used to some recent examples of incredibly short movies and beating games in 5 seconds that no one has the patience anymore for a moment of downtime?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2649)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6442
Location: The land down under.
I wrote that I'm blaming the Kooper for killing the entertainment as a thing I will mainly blame (as a kinda joke). My other reason is because it felt a bit too slow for me for some reason.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Spikestuff wrote:
I wrote that I'm blaming the Kooper for killing the entertainment as a thing I will mainly blame (as a kinda joke).
Even if you weren't joking, you're still entitled to your opinion, so argue what I said above if you feel otherwise.
Spikestuff wrote:
My other reason is because it felt a bit too slow for me for some reason.
By "it" here, do you mean the run as a whole? Because in that, I agree with you. Seeing a classic NES Mario game, I'm expecting a platformer, and this platformer puzzle genre just feels slow, even though it isn't.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I need therapy.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
w7n
Joined: 10/4/2011
Posts: 11
Location: NJ,China
One thing about that period waiting for the Koopa shell is that--think about the leveling up in the speedrun of Lagrange Point. That run gets accepted anyway. Sure, waiting for the Koopa is boring for viewers, but such cases only occur in 1-1, 1-5 and 1-9. They don't take very long in total, and plus Happylee tries a lot to perform tricks to compensate for the entertainment value.
Radiant wrote:
w7n wrote:
So it appears that there are some people who consider this hack to have a poorly designed course?
No, I'm saying that there are dozens or hundreds of Mario romhacks that are extra hard, look like random blocks thrown together, and can only be played with savestates. Just at romhacking.net they have 196 SMB hacks, most of which are extra hard and savestate-only; most of these 196 hacks are either indistinguishable from this one or actually look better. If you look at google, then ROM hacks like Extra Mario Bros, Super Demo World, Rockman No Constancy or Zelda Parallel Worlds are famous; this one is not even a blip on the radar. So while this is technically a well-made run, the hack is not notable; it's not at all famous and not noticeably different from dozens of similar ROM hacks.
About the hack itself: First, it's one of the more well-known SMB hacks. Second, its design is great. The blocks appear like randomly placed, but only when items are placed like such can good glitch-requiring hacks be produced. If you do know SMB hacks well, you will VERY EASILY distinguish this hack from others. As for those 196 hacks in ROMHacking.net: Most of them are harder than usual, or even harder than SMB2J, but I don't see any of them that requires heavy abuse of glitches throughout the whole course. Overall, HRM belongs to a unique category of SMB hacks--those which requires abuse of hardcore glitches. In my personal opinion, it even stands out from the vast majority of such hacks. So I don't see anything seriously wrong with the selection of this hack.
I am no 'w7nner'. I am a complete 'lo5er'.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11479
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
I love warpless walkathon, I love FDS SMB. But this... it just makes no sense, wtf have I just seen? Voted no.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
w7n wrote:
First, it's one of the more well-known SMB hacks.
Do you have some evidence for this claim? Because googling it suggests that it's really not a well-known hack at all. The thing is, we don't need this run to show off a noclip or air jumping glitch, because the several SMB runs we have already do that.
Player (146)
Joined: 7/16/2009
Posts: 686
Technically impressive, but looks random, slow and unentertaining. Goes for both the run and the hack itself. Voting meh. w7n: the only problem with the hack lies in the way it looks. As you say yourself ("The blocks appear like randomly placed, but only when items are placed like such can good glitch-requiring hacks be produced.") the very nature of these kind of hacks make them (and runs of them) look random.
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
w7n wrote:
Tangent wrote:
Another hack designed to be constantly glitched/TAS through to begin with and is difficult to tell how it's different from 'normal' play because of that. Being frame precise or mass glitching in a hack that can't be played at all without frame precision and mass glitching isn't particularly impressive to me. And a significant number of the tricks are already in other runs anyway, just not in blatantly artificial situations where they have to be used.
So let me quote this... Formerly, another(slower) Happylee's HRM run was posted on a Chinese Nicovideo-like site, and OSO's run of HRM was posted on Youtube, both attracting a lot of attention. So I guess you won't be impressed by either of the 2 videos? Then that's your own business.
What were you even trying to say here? It's a bizarre history lesson with no relevance to my comments into what appears to be LOL OPINIONS, and if so, yes, no shit. I did indeed post my opinion.
Expert player (2573)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831
Scepheo wrote:
Technically impressive, but looks random, slow and unentertaining. Goes for both the run and the hack itself.
Slow, random, and unentertaining. Those are the 3 keywords I'd like to argue about. Other things such like how famous the hack is are not that relevant. Slow, maybe, for it's a speedrun of one of the hardest hacks ever made, with heavy glitch abuse, and you can't expect it to be running all the way like my SMB runs. As I said, it's better to view it as a puzzle game, or a maze. I think it wouldn't be a successful maze if you could just break it drawing a straight line, right? I think PLENTY of time was saved compared to previous runs of this game, and I failed to see any part of the designs is just to waste time. Random, meaning you haven't fully understand the hack itself. In fact, it's just the opposite of random. Hard Relay Mario is significantly different than hacks like Super Mario Forever or Kaizo Mario World 1&2, although all of them is considered to be hard, but not the same way. You can feel the designing art on the map. Every brick and Fire Bar is exquisitely placed, and each item has its meaning of existence, making it inappropriate to move or delete anything in the design. Although there's an small exception, the Koopa on the castle brick in 1-6 that make me wonder what it's used for, probably put just for fun, but the funny thing is that I skipped the rest of 1-6 using its shell. Unentertaining, I think mostly because not many people could understand the hack and the run. It's just like watching a Spanish movie with no subtitles, and of course you won't be entertained because you have no idea what they're talking about, but Spanish people will. At the very beginning of the submission text, I said it's for those who think SMB not glitchy enough, and there are people who can enjoy a high-level superplay and people who want to.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4044
Complaining that you had no idea what was going on is like never having played Viewtiful Joe, watching a TAS of it and complaining that you had no idea what was going on. It's kind of assumed with TASes that if you haven't played the game (and this is different enough to be a new 'game' in a sense) then you might not follow along the first time you watch :)
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Joined: 1/26/2009
Posts: 558
Location: Canada - Québec
Voted no at first watch as well. The game didn't look hard enough to me. Well not anymore, I guess. Maybe this TAS is just too good, thought. But yeah, to be fair, I expected more technical dept with creative use of glitches as some kind of puzzle while pushing the hardware to his limit(e.g. turtle shell going in all direction or something). In this hack, we just place some obstacle that require a particular trick. Thought, if I take a couple of minute or hour to study the previous TAS for this game, then maybe I could appreciate the hardwork made in this submission. That said, at some point, it's like trying to evaluate some weird painting at a museum. Maybe a painting can attract a particular feeling in you, but some other look just bland and cheaply made, no matter how you look at it. edit: In term of game design, I'm not even sure if this game is better than Air 2. Yes, there's less trick required to beat the game, but so does the original game. Does that mean it is better?
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
Patashu wrote:
Complaining that you had no idea what was going on is like never having played Viewtiful Joe, watching a TAS of it and complaining that you had no idea what was going on. It's kind of assumed with TASes that if you haven't played the game (and this is different enough to be a new 'game' in a sense) then you might not follow along the first time you watch :)
Nobody's made that complaint, so...
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4044
Tangent wrote:
Patashu wrote:
Complaining that you had no idea what was going on is like never having played Viewtiful Joe, watching a TAS of it and complaining that you had no idea what was going on. It's kind of assumed with TASes that if you haven't played the game (and this is different enough to be a new 'game' in a sense) then you might not follow along the first time you watch :)
Nobody's made that complaint, so...
feos wrote:
I love warpless walkathon, I love FDS SMB. But this... it just makes no sense, wtf have I just seen? Voted no.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Experienced player (837)
Joined: 5/2/2010
Posts: 19
Location: China
As a TASer of Super Mario Bros 1 I certainly vote yes. Someone may think this hack is just a mix of many blocks and has no order at all. It really seems like this at first sight. But after making a TAS of this hack, you will find almost every block in the hack has its value, at least making the hack better on watching. For example, a spike without a block under it is obviously worse than the one with a block under it. I have made at least four movies of Hard Relay Mario and so does the hardest hack of SMB1: MMM. The quality of HRM is almost the best in glitched hacks. Most SMB1 hackers think MMM beats HRM on difficulty ( I don't think so, for 3-1 and 4-1 in HRM are not easier than the levels in MMM ) but loose on quality. So it's the reason why HappyLee choose HRM instead of MMM. I don't want to say too much about Air2. It's really a bad hack of SMB1. I have also made a TAS of this hack, and it's even worse than the hack "Air" , which let you be able to jump in the sky. And Air2 is really not a good place to show glitches that not shown in original runs. So I suggest replacing Air2's TAS by this one. For those who don't think HRM is a good hack of SMB1, I suggest you to make a TAS of this hack and you will find why it's a good hack. Even you don't want to finish the whole hack, at least try 1-A or 3-1, you will know much better about SMB1 glitches.
Noxxa
They/Them
Moderator, Expert player (4126)
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
I like the hack's appearance, myself - it looks like, as said by some others, every block or tile has value and is there for a reason, and it's nice to see Mario pull practically every trick and glitch out of the bag of tricks just to pass through each stage. It looks much better than Kaizo Mario World, which at times just consists of walls or floors or ceilings of either nippers or concrete blocks. It also looks quite a bit better and more varied than the Air hacks. I vote yes. HappyLee made a great looking run, as usual.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11479
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
Patashu wrote:
Complaining that you had no idea what was going on is like never having played Viewtiful Joe, watching a TAS of it and complaining that you had no idea what was going on. It's kind of assumed with TASes that if you haven't played the game (and this is different enough to be a new 'game' in a sense) then you might not follow along the first time you watch :)
I never played FDS SMB. I never played Super Metroid. But I admire 1882M and RBO. I have a taste for games. I even have a taste for hacks, as I also like the KMW3 TAS a lot, despite of never having seen the game beforehand. This one... uh.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 1/13/2007
Posts: 343
The entire point of this hack is that it's a compilation of the hardest custom levels the hack author could find. hence "hard relay mario". So every level has annoyingly difficult challenges for challenge sake. I still liked the original air better then either of these though.
Joined: 3/17/2011
Posts: 24
The SMB engine is abused in a inhuman way and shows glitches that I wouldn't otherwise see in a run of the regular game. I was entertained watching it. Yes vote.
Joined: 10/1/2013
Posts: 98
Location: My Basement
Tangent wrote:
Another hack designed to be constantly glitched/TAS through to begin with and is difficult to tell how it's different from 'normal' play because of that. Being frame precise or mass glitching in a hack that can't be played at all without frame precision and mass glitching isn't particularly impressive to me. And a significant number of the tricks are already in other runs anyway, just not in blatantly artificial situations where they have to be used.
Glitcher
He/Him
Joined: 3/24/2007
Posts: 216
Location: London, U.K.
Mehhhhh, this is just another one of those annoying ultra-hard Mario hacks that are unplayable outside a TAS. I see enough of those for Super Mario World, so I can easily ignore this one.
Expert player (2573)
Joined: 12/23/2007
Posts: 831
zaphod77 wrote:
So every level has annoyingly difficult challenges for challenge sake.
Glitcher wrote:
Mehhhhh, this is just another one of those annoying ultra-hard Mario hacks that are unplayable outside a TAS. I see enough of those for Super Mario World, so I can easily ignore this one.
The word "annoying" is only for people who don't know how to use glitches to complete the level. To them, every hard hack looks almost the same, because the only thing flashing in their mind is, "I don't wanna waste my time trying one of those hacks". But as I said, there's a big difference between hacks like Kaizo Mario World 1&2 and Hard Relay Mario, although they're both considered hard. Kaizo Mario World is simply a combination of hard stages the author could think of, and you can see the solution just by viewing the map. Personally I don't like trying one of those hacks because I think it's just a waste of time, and I would consider them as "annoying". But the latter, Hard Relay Mario is not designed to be annoying, for it's a clever maze designed not only to test your techniques skills, but also your brains, so people who have the abilities could actually enjoy themselves solving the puzzle. But it's a pity that in the eyes of those who don't have that kind of ability, Hard Relay Mario seems to make no difference. And it's impossible to persuade them, for you can't ask them to learn several SMB tricks and try to solve the puzzle themselves. For example, I don't like math and I am not good at solving math problems, making it hard for me to understand the pleasure of mathematicians proving those extremely hard theorems. What I tried to say is, don't judge Hard Relay Mario simply the same way as other hard hacks, because you won't discover the beauty inside it if you can't understand it.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
HappyLee wrote:
But the latter, Hard Relay Mario is not designed to be annoying, for it's a clever maze designed not only to test your techniques skills, but also your brains, so people who have the abilities could actually enjoy themselves solving the puzzle.
You know what generally don't make for particularly entertaining TASes? Mazes and puzzles. They're designed to only have one solution and play is tightly constrained within that solution. And here, we have a hack designed to narrow the corridor of possible actions for the player as tightly as possible. I also really don't understand this "inherant beauty" you seem so keen on.