Posted: 5/6/2014 11:22 PM
Post subject: No damage run, worth it ?
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th2o
Player (68)
Joined: 4/19/2014
Posts: 16
I'm currently working on a TAS of Bomberman Saturn (Master mode, thread here), and I'm wondering whether it would be worth it to make a no damage run. The thing is now we've completed a test TAS without taking damage, and we've established that : 1) HPs are hard to get. You start without any and over the whole 16 levels you can only grab 2 without wasting time. 2) Damage takes are not often useful. There is probably no more that 2 or 3 instances in the whole run where they would save more than a couple frames. So originally we were thinking about doing 2 runs, one no damage and another fastest by all means. But from the facts above we would likely end up with two very very similar runs, with very similar times. Do you think it would be worth doing ?
Posted: 5/6/2014 11:27 PM
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adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3579)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
If you are right about the time difference being small, it might look better overall if it were no damage. Since the lack of damage might look better overall compared to a handful of frames of savings. However, my experience tells me that if you go the extra mile and try to make use of damage, you might find more savings that you expect :) I don't know the game well enough to tell you which I'd rather see, but I generally prefer the use of damage taking especially if it has to be carefully planned.
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Posted: 5/9/2014 9:58 PM
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CoolKirby
Editor, Experienced player (571)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4039
Exotic platforms TASer of 2014 NES TAS of 2013
I would go with whatever looks most impressive. If taking damage looks faster and more like something the theoretical TAS superhuman would do, even for those few frames each time, I would go with that. Conversely, if taking no damage looks more superhuman, go with that.
Posted: 5/10/2014 12:44 AM
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martandelus
Player (69)
Joined: 4/17/2014
Posts: 69
I couldn't tell you what to do since it's your own project to be honest, theres some pretty rapid kills either way, i thought the way you got all the enemies at 1.29 was pretty epic, you cleared house there. Circumstantial damage perhaps? dunno tbh, can't be sure since you wrecked the big guy at the end of you're video without even a scratch, that was equally epic. Nice work anyway
Nothing to fear but fear itself - Franklin D. Roosevelt
Posted: 5/13/2014 5:04 PM
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Master_of_Puppets
Joined: 10/31/2006
Posts: 134
The following only applies if the rules for publication haven't changed in the last year, since I can't seem to find em at the moment. If you don't take the fastest route (in this case, I'm assuming it would be taking damage to save time), you have to hope your run is worthy of a star or moon, because it can't be published to the vault, where only fastest 100% and fastest any% are accepted, and any speed tradeoff is unacceptable.
Posted: 5/13/2014 10:22 PM
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th2o
Player (68)
Joined: 4/19/2014
Posts: 16
Thanks for your posts everyone :) , it's nice to know other people are interested in this TASing attempt ! We've followed your advice adelikat, and after more experimentation we've found another useful way of taking damage ! Its point is not to speed up the run though, it only helps suppressing explosions (allowing to spare enemies to include them in later combos). It doesn't seem like we'll be finding more interesting damage takes in the near future though (unless something unexpected happens). So in order to show everything we've found out about this game, I've been thinking about doing two runs instead of one : - A fastest-time no-damage run, since taking damage would save really little time and grazing explosions & enemies perfectly during the whole run looks decently amazing :) . After extensive testing it seems like taking damage saves about 5 seconds in one occasion and only a handful frames in all others, so after all I personally don't really feel like compomising the no-damage perfection over this time gain. - A maximum-points run with damage takes, since they're pretty useful for this. The point here is then to make the largest possible combos, most of the time wiping all enemies on screen with one single chain reaction of doom. Since the game gives time points for completing levels fast speed would also be important in this run, with the exception of a couple levels containing generators (static enemies respawning others continuously after they're taken out). Those generators would need to be farmed until the floor timer runs out. This run would be slightly longer (likely 6-8 minutes), but would have a finishing score around 3-4 times higher, and demonstrate different techniques. I'm currently working a test run for this and it looks both feasible and quite impressive here and there :) So, a couple more questions : - Do you think doing things this way would be a good idea ? - If so, do you know whether those two runs would meet the standards for publication ? - I haven't found the rules you're referring to Master of Puppets, could you post the link please ?
Posted: 5/14/2014 3:05 AM
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Master_of_Puppets
Joined: 10/31/2006
Posts: 134
http://tasvideos.org/Tier.html http://tasvideos.org/Vault.html
Goal choice Must be clearly definable as having completed the game. Games that loop endlessly can still be defined. The completion point is one where there is no new content, and the game is no longer increasing in difficulty. Goal choice is limited to fastest completion time (any%), or full-completion (such as 100% or best ending). Exception: for games with separate, independent level sets (modes, episodes) officially available from start, each level set can have its TAS in Vault. Other goal choices are not eligible for this category. Goal choice criteria must be clear and non-controversial (a clear consensus on what constitutes full-completion or when a game is completed).
Keep in mind that's only for Vault tier, so if you think the run will get at least Moon, then go right ahead.