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Posted: 2/8/2013 9:22 AM
Post subject: Hello! I want to TAS but it is so hard to decide...
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dart193
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Joined: 1/20/2013
Posts: 63
Hello! I am new here (obviously), and i found this site not long time ago. Actually, TASing looks really beautiful... especially when speedruns are made with all kinds of speed button presses abusing) Well, i am quite good at games and i also like to program (this is my future job btw). Well,i understand game mechanics very well... hell, i am thinking like computer myself. So, after watching 100s of NES TASes, i tried to make my own TAS. Started with SMB. Result was fast... maybe, as i used wrong ROM, i was unable to compare... but it was nice looking... bare jumps on pipes, almost dying on flowers... all that kind of stuff. Most important from that TAS was 2 things: first, i learned to use TAS editor ( latter half of the game took me 10 times less that first level))), secondly - i enjoyed it... really enjoyed. So i decided to make TAS that can be published here. Looking in Wanted TASes topic, Fantastic adventures of Dizzy was there, but looks like a man is working on that... for a long time. And even that this is my probably most favourite game for NES, i doubt that i can create TAS for it, that may be published here. So, now i ask you: what NES game could you advice to me to make TAS that would be worth posting on this site? And yes, i mean superplay movies, not just speedruns ;) Seeing how many games already have inhuman TASes, i feel really sad as i know that there is really low chance of any TAS being really improvable so taking random game will not do the work. And yes, i have way TOO much free time, so i need to fill it anyway.
Posted: 2/8/2013 10:10 AM
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Aglar
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[1040] NES Panic Restaurant by Aglar in 13:29.17 should be easy to improve upon as it's made using prehistoric tools. I can provide some resources if you're interested.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
Posted: 2/8/2013 10:37 AM
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dart193
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Joined: 1/20/2013
Posts: 63
Of course I am! Never played this game actually, but that would be so fun! It would be nice if you wold help a little with providing a link where i can download proper ROM - have giant collection myself, but most of ROMs are incorrect. I would also like to read more "copyright" information - while obviously downloading someone's else run and simply impoving it is forbidden, i would like to understand when it comes to taking ideas. And, oh, looks like you are the author) How much frames do you think it is possible to cut?
Posted: 2/8/2013 10:48 AM
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Noxxa
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dart193 wrote:
I would also like to read more "copyright" information - while obviously downloading someone's else run and simply impoving it is forbidden, i would like to understand when it comes to taking ideas.
Ideas or strategies can't be copyrighted, so don't worry about that. The only way of "copyright infringement" would be if you copied large parts of another input file and claimed it as your own, without permission from the original author. This thread provides more discussion/precedent about using strategies from other people's work for your own run.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 2/8/2013 11:03 AM
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dart193
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So, if i watch some TAS and will myself repeat all ideas in it w/o using original input, it is OK? OMG, that makes things really easy. And from what you saying, if original author will allow it, there even may be chance of using original input? Nice... I will of course try it myself however, as it will give me much more expirience.
Posted: 2/8/2013 11:26 AM
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Aglar
Expert player (3642)
Joined: 11/9/2007
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Location: Varberg, Sweden
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dart193: I sent you a PM.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
Posted: 2/8/2013 11:58 AM
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dart193
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Posts: 63
Aglar, i got your PM. I have one site where i am gettnig ROMs, but it have like 200 in each archive, so it is hard to tell what i need, especially that there is no (U) ROM in that archive. If i understood what is written on site, (U) [!] is what i need, right?
Posted: 2/8/2013 12:14 PM
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Aglar
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Joined: 11/9/2007
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Location: Varberg, Sweden
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dart193 wrote:
If i understood what is written on site, (U) [!] is what i need, right?
In many cases, even if it's a good rom dump, the [!] isn't in the file name. This is the case for most of my roms, Panic Restaurant for one instance.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
Posted: 2/8/2013 12:30 PM
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dart193
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Joined: 1/20/2013
Posts: 63
ОК, Panic Restaurant (U) [!].nes is what i got. So... should i start? I readed about NTSC/PAL differences and have lots info, so i think i shall begin. One question: what PPU should i use in FCEUX? New or old?
Posted: 2/8/2013 12:45 PM
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Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1113)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
dart193 wrote:
So... should i start? I readed about NTSC/PAL differences and have lots info, so i think i shall begin. One question: what PPU should i use in FCEUX? New or old?
Old PPU (also, FCEUX 2.2.0).
Posted: 2/8/2013 1:03 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
If you want to try a game no one has TAS'd before, I recommend: Joy Mecha Fight If you want to try to TAS something really popular, but using a new branch, try Super Mario Bros 3 "All Stages". We have plenty of resources for this.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 2/8/2013 1:08 PM
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dart193
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Posts: 63
Well, i started with Panic reustarant already... interesting games, because it lags like hell
Posted: 2/8/2013 1:13 PM
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Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1113)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
dart193 wrote:
Well, i started with Panic reustarant already... interesting games, because it lags like hell
Yeah, one needs to figure out how to keep lag low (altering actions, trying to kill enemies as quickly as possible, not killing enemies, etc..). Depends on the game. Also, use memory watch or Lua scripting to keep track of player position and speed so you can easily see what is faster... Momentary drops in player speed might not be obvious, but still cost lots of time.
Posted: 2/8/2013 1:22 PM
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dart193
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Posts: 63
Well,i will simply try at first to create run without any obvious moments where it is possible to lose time. Then improve it.
Posted: 2/8/2013 1:34 PM
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
Consider reading the page describing ways to improve your TAS: Wiki: TasingGuide/TASArt And the very Guide.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 2/8/2013 1:36 PM
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Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1113)
Joined: 5/1/2010
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dart193 wrote:
Well,i will simply try at first to create run without any obvious moments where it is possible to lose time. Then improve it.
Good idea. The first run always tends to be crap. No matter how good tools you have and how carefully you try to optimize (using memory watch to check). Also, be aware that there can be odd physics... A couple examples from various games: - Upward hills subtly decreasing speed (but downward ones not increasing speed). - Jumping off downhill at right frame giving you greater speed than running it down. - Jumping at correct spot speeding you up (with very sensitive positioning). - Decelerating resulting greater speed. - Speed oscillations that can be frozen (hopefully at the highest value). - Left+Right turning character around immediately, skipping normal acceleration. - Left+Right in air stopping horizontal motion. - Speeds in excess of maximum speed on given surface type. - Look up tables involved in acceleration being read out-of-bounds, sending character at some crazy speed. - Some jump being meant to be impossible, but being possible with some very precise postioning. - Attacking in air subtly altering jump arcs (which can have major consequences). (I have personally seen all of the above).
Posted: 2/8/2013 1:46 PM
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dart193
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Posts: 63
About guide: nice guide, not much useful info however as i think - mostly about how to make it interesting, not fastest. About tips: most of them are known for me, althrough left+right midair is interesting and never seen it. Well, i have made so far only first level - 3598 frames. But it was enjoyable, no matter how bad it is.
Posted: 2/8/2013 2:44 PM
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AnS
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Joined: 2/23/2006
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dart193 wrote:
About guide: nice guide, not much useful info however as i think - mostly about how to make it interesting, not fastest.
"Interesting" is more important than "Fast". If you make fast but boring TAS, you'll end up in Vault, and if you make slow but interesting TAS you may get into Moons (although after that someone else may beat your TAS by improving time, so it's better to be both entertaining and fast). So, that "TASArt" guide is (more or less) useful for improving entertainment. As for speed, it's not just about learning game-specific tricks, it's more about squeezing everything from them, which means combining them optimally. This is the most time consuming part of TASing. The "best practices" of TASing workflow are described in another guide: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13521
Posted: 2/8/2013 2:57 PM
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feos
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In fact, going faster consists of - using known tricks: Wiki: GameResources/CommonTricks - redoing your work over and over: TAS Art page - optimizing old tricks to the point you discover new ones: Thread #13010: How to find glitches/bugs ? - redoing to include newer tricks This is pretty much an endless loop, it just depends on the amount of people willing to optimize and discover. Sometimes one guy submits, other guy improves right away and then there is a frame war. If you want your movie to be REALLY optimized, you MUST improve your own time over and over. You need a lot of inspiration, because sometimes finding a trick lowers the wish to go frame-geek, both of which must co-exist.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 2/8/2013 3:01 PM
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dart193
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Posts: 63
I did not meaned that entertaining part is useless for me, i meaned that as for a newbie, concentrating on a speed is a first priority, adding entertaining elements such as jump precisiousness or near enemy-passing is afterwork for me
Posted: 2/10/2013 11:05 AM
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dart193
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Joined: 1/20/2013
Posts: 63
My first crappy try resulted in 105% from current record (51014 of 48550). Time to improve. Edit: cut 504 frames in cutscenes, 50509 is current count. It is 104% now.
Posted: 10/29/2014 4:06 AM
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dart193
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Player (35)
Joined: 1/20/2013
Posts: 63
I have not suceed in beating current TAS record for this game despite my tries. Lag management is way too hard for me with my current skill. I am currently going through my game collection and checking what games are not TASed yet and are not that much difficult for a newbie.
Posted: 10/29/2014 4:35 AM
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Samsara
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These pages on the site are pretty good areas to look for improvable games. The first link (Longest Non-Obsoleted) is your best bet. Look for a game you enjoy (or think looks interesting) and go from there. Things have changed so much over 10 years of these runs being published, so you're guaranteed to improve one if you look for new tricks and use all the shiny new resources. Make sure to revive the game's thread on the forums if you take this route, as having people comment and help is highly beneficial.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Posted: 10/29/2014 4:51 AM
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dart193
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Posts: 63
Thank you for replying. I see Jackie chan action kung fu in the list. That is the game which I have been glitching on real nes, I think I will try that one. Although despite its being old, I still doubt that I will succeed. Well, the process is fun anyway.
Posted: 10/29/2014 5:24 AM
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Samsara
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Again, asking other people for help in the game's thread will raise your chances of succeeding. Even though most of the TASes here are by a single author, pretty much every single one is a community effort. The most important part of making a good TAS is research: If you go in without any research or help, you'll most likely come up with something sub-optimal. If you have new glitches, that's definitely an improvement if you find a good use for them in the run. Test them out everywhere you can and you're bound to save time.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
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