This topic is for the purpose of discussing #3756: MESHUGGAH's NES Archon: The Light and the Dark in 01:10.00

MESHUGGAH, haven't viewed this yet, but I just wanted to say that I appreciate your work in improving these old, now-Vaulted runs. You're also a good band. Cheers.

Yes vote, faster time YEA! Temporary Encode: Link to video

you can't win agains the dark side... yes vote for improving an existing run.

MESHUGGAH, haven't viewed this yet, but I just wanted to say that I appreciate your work in improving these old, now-Vaulted runs.

Me too. As for the run, nice improvement. No for entertainment, yes for publication!

okay, maybe I'm tasing too much

Nah, I'd say you're doing fine. Besides, there's so much games out there yet to be TAS'd. :)

Nice improvement. Yes for publication, No for entertainment.

This looks sort of like The Unholy War, but without the strategic field elements. Neat. I think there's just enough entertainment to make it worth escaping the vault. Yes vote.

Hey, it's an improvement to a movie I liked to begin with. One question, though -- wouldn't it be faster to end the Dragon fight with the dragon as close to its tile location as possible? The game spends a long time slowly moving it over to the other side of the battlefield. (And to a lesser extent, the same question applies to the Goblin fight)

I vote yes for entertainment value and yes for publication. I'm probably in the minority but I do find Archon TASes entertaining. And I'm pleased at this improvement!

Hey, it's an improvement to a movie I liked to begin with. One question, though -- wouldn't it be faster to end the Dragon fight with the dragon as close to its tile location as possible? The game spends a long time slowly moving it over to the other side of the battlefield. (And to a lesser extent, the same question applies to the Goblin fight)

No, you won't be faster. The length of frames needed to wait for the next turn is depends on previous inputs/luck. The reason I'm not at the same position where I could "possibly" should is because it's as fast as I would do that. So I thought it looks "funnier". Looks like it's more like "confusing". For the dragon fight, I end input when I fired the fireball (the movie is already stopped).

Ah ha, thanks for the clarification, MESHUGGAH. I should have realized that the run was over as soon as the dragon fired! Silly me.

Ah ha, thanks for the clarification, MESHUGGAH. I should have realized that the run was over as soon as the dragon fired! Silly me.

Well, actually you were right: if you position the dragon closer to the left side of the screen after the fight, the game would end faster, but this would requires more input. So yes, you can make a version which reaches the ending faster by adding more input. But I don't see the point doing this. Also you can just simply press enter if you wait 100~150 frames to get the credits appear instantly. Technically, this TAS uses the shortest input to end the game.

Good run! I've been a fan of Archon for years.

I was unfamiliar with this game until I saw this specific run of it. I was entertained by the run because it's a unique take on board-like games. I feel this is entertaining enough to warrant a moon and therefore I nominate it for one. Of course, I have no idea if a run can even *be* nominated for a Moon, let alone a run that hasn't even been accepted yet. :) A.C. ******

Before watching this movie and the previous one, I thought this would be an easy accept. However, the decision is now more difficult because, even though this movie is 5 seconds shorter in input, it ends input early and the game is considered ended 5 seconds later than the other. This reminds me of a few other movies (though nothing particularly controversial, since they were either the first for its game, or it used major improvements). I was surprised to figure out that none of the published Monopoly movies have really had this problem, though I believe that the current published Monopoly movie is optimal in neither sense, whether by shortest input, or by game end. My initial opinion is to reject the run.

You want to reject solely based on the decision of how to end the movie? The rules list several options of how to do this. All are presented as acceptable means. We have a number of movies that delay game completion for shorter input and seems to have become the norm for most people.

Before watching this movie and the previous one, I thought this would be an easy accept. However, the decision is now more difficult because, even though this movie is 5 seconds shorter in input, it ends input early and the game is considered ended 5 seconds later than the other. This reminds me of a few other movies (though nothing particularly controversial, since they were either the first for its game, or it used major improvements). I was surprised to figure out that none of the published Monopoly movies have really had this problem, though I believe that the current published Monopoly movie is optimal in neither sense, whether by shortest input, or by game end. My initial opinion is to reject the run.

If I would position the dragon to it's place and press start at the first frame I can (mybe waiting 100~150 frames) would bring the ending credits 25 seconds faster than TwistedEye's submission (and it would still be faster because of the different strategy). And as I stated this earlier in this thread, this submission aims for shortest input. If you don't like it, I can make that "bring ending screen instantly" which is I think totaly pointless, why do you want to skip something if you don't need to press more buttons just wait? I hope I didn't misunderstanded you.

I would consider the frame where it says "THE GAME IS ENDED" as the true game end. So it is not necessary to bring up the credits with start if it automatically goes to the credits. However, there is a difference between the end of input and the game end: This submission: Input end on frame 4027, game end on frame 4786. Previous submission: Input end on frame 4531, game end on frame 4563. With this criterion of game end, this submission is slower by 223 frames, even though in terms of input end, this submission is faster by 504 frames. I'd like to know which other games brought up that situation. I heard that Super Mario Bros. was one of them (which explains why TASers were talking about "axe touch").

You want to reject solely based on the decision of how to end the movie?

Provided that there is no conflict whether such and such movie is faster than another because of this choice of end (for example, if the TAS is the first of its game, or if it is a significant improvement having nothing to do with the choice of end), there is no problem and such movies would not be judged based on choice of end (although it is possible for choice of end to affect entertainment, but if so, that should only an issue for selecting its tier). However, if such choice of ends causes a conflict, then at least for now the situation is unclear. Remember that the rules say "A speed-oriented movie must beat all existing records". The record obviously refers to fastest completion, but what exactly does "fastest completion" mean? If "fastest completion" means "fastest to input end", then this movie beats the previous, and it would be accepted and most likely obsolete the other movie. On the other hand, if "fastest completion" means "fastest to true game end", then this movie fails to beat the previous and so would be rejected.

So is your question here whether or not it improved the previous movie? If the only improvement is simply choosing an alternative definition of ending the movie, then yeah, there is no improvement. However, this submission notes suggests there are actual improvements.

On the other hand, if "fastest completion" means "fastest to true game end", then this movie fails to beat the previous and so would be rejected.

I'm started to make a comparison and show the possibility of the various outcomes of this speedrun. Don't reject because this movie (because of the strategy) already faster so just pressing a button already improves more than 20 secs.

I'm ready. Here is every "knowledge" you need to judge this "ending" question. - Luck manipulation sources: Dark side (better characters to reach the cores fastest), Light takes first (required to capture cores fast without being attacked), delaying start/random first (changing "AI strategy" to avoid conjuring spells and avoding being attacked). - Intended random source: order of moving with different units, order of obtaining the cores. There's 6 theoritically "correct" in some term of being an ending point. (0. Input length) 1. Killing the last enemy that required to obtain the core 2. Obtaining the last core (either by standing on it or when the enemy dies on that square) 3. When you see the cores are obtained by dark side on the table 4. Whe you see "The game is ended..." 5. Pressing a button to start the credits at next nolag frame 6. When the credits automatically starts without input The reason I wrote them down is because some of them remains identical while others keep changing. TwistedEye (4531): 3998, 4549, 4549, 4563, 4896, 6283 This run =) (4207): 4236, 4236, 4780, 4786, 5040, 6539 My WIP v2 (4207): 4218, 4218, 4616, 4622, 4876, 4955, 6283 My WIP v3 (4207): 4218, 4218, 4595, 4601, 4855, 4934, 6283 My WIP v4 (4448): 3933, 4470, 4470, 4480, 4813, 6283 WIP4: my RNG stuffs with twistedeye's strategy of order of obtaining the cores and more optimized fights http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/2678956056420939 Edit: after reading jlun2's comment, here's TwistedEye's and my WIP4 showing the credits as fast as it possible: Twistedeye: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/2679185109268704 My WIP4: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/2679201144417074 Soooo.. basicly, I have WIP4 which if you would wait until 4734 frames and press T, the ending credits brown frame would appear at 4813. TwistedEye's would come in 4896 frames (pressing the T at first non lag frame). Without any input, it would start the ending credits at 6283th frame (you would need to make a bigger improvement to decrease this waiting phase). So next, please write down which of these points would define as the end of the game. This WIP4 beats everything except in the term of "frame of the ending credits comes in without pressing input at next non-lag frame" because it's the same as TwistedEye's (it's timed).

Proof

Wouldn't simply extending the input file save alot of trouble proving that you're faster? While one can say that someone could beat the movie by ending input earlier, I think that's not a concern given that I think this happened before with a TMNT run sometime ago. I think it was rejected for not being an actual improvement.

I don't see why this is such a big deal. There are multiple valid points at which you can end input, and "soonest point at which no further input is needed to end the game" is one of those. Not everyone likes that, but enough people do that it's an accepted approach -- and it can lead to interesting strategies like in the Gradius (grab a shield and park in a specific position) and Gimmick (arrange a shot to hit the boss 3 times) runs. It's perfectly valid here. So, why are we having this argument again, over this run in particular?

like in the Gradius (grab a shield and park in a specific position)

Actually Gradius is a slightly different example in that the early input ending does not delay the completion of the game. However, I agree with your statement. Extending the completion of the game to reduce input is a practice that has enough support to be considered valid and has been employed in several published movies.