Joined: 3/21/2011
Posts: 127
Location: Virginia (United States)
Its simply when a trick that saves time is not used for the sake of entertainment for the viewer, either because its annoying, or is too repetitive.
A good example of this is that in the Pokemon Gotta Catch Them All run, having HP in the red will stop Pokemon battle cries from happening (making attacks go faster), however the beeping noise the low HP causes would be extremely annoying, so it's not used.
YouTube Channel - Twitter
Current projects: Sutte Hakkun, Hyper VI, RTDL, own hacking projects
Other examples of speed/entertainment tradeoffs include:
* In the Sonic games, finishing each level as fast as possible even if that means a very long bonus tally. It would technically be faster to wait at the finish line until the tally gets down to a more reasonable number and then finish the level. This has its own subcategory, "Ignores delays due to bonus effects" or something like that.
* DarkKobold's Shining in the Darkness TAS is a dungeon-crawler RPG. He wastes a turn against the final boss to make it do a dance -- serves absolutely no purpose in-game, but it's funny.
* In Yoshi's Island for the SNES, there's a particular mode of movement that is very slightly faster than normal running. However, it prevents you from being able to throw eggs around. The TASer opted to use normal running so he could show off incredible egg shots instead of the slightly faster, but much more boring, 1/1 running.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 12/21/2011
Posts: 31
Location: The Magic Kingdom
kaizoman666 wrote:
Its simply when a trick that saves time is not used for the sake of entertainment for the viewer, either because its annoying, or is too repetitive.
A good example of this is that in the Pokemon Gotta Catch Them All run, having HP in the red will stop Pokemon battle cries from happening (making attacks go faster), however the beeping noise the low HP causes would be extremely annoying, so it's not used.
That's ridiculous. I think that no matter what, TASes should aim for the absolute fastest time and entertainment if POSSIBLE! Although, I thought it meant that you do whatever you want while waiting for a certain thing to happen.
Joined: 3/21/2011
Posts: 127
Location: Virginia (United States)
Billy wrote:
That's ridiculous. I think that no matter what, TASes should aim for the absolute fastest time and entertainment if POSSIBLE! Although, I thought it meant that you do whatever you want while waiting for a certain thing to happen.
Well, here on TASVideos, entertainment is actually a bit more preferred over speed, due to the fact that a video could be very boring to watch even if it is the fastest possible.
YouTube Channel - Twitter
Current projects: Sutte Hakkun, Hyper VI, RTDL, own hacking projects
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Let me give an esthetical example. There tons of laggy charges were used, still aiming for fast completion. Avoiding these fights between players would look extremely boring, though much faster. We make superplay movies, they shall look superhuman as well. If some trick/timesaver hurts entertainment much - it can be safely traded off.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 12/21/2011
Posts: 31
Location: The Magic Kingdom
kaizoman666 wrote:
Billy wrote:
That's ridiculous. I think that no matter what, TASes should aim for the absolute fastest time and entertainment if POSSIBLE! Although, I thought it meant that you do whatever you want while waiting for a certain thing to happen.
Well, here on TASVideos, entertainment is actually a bit more preferred over speed, due to the fact that a video could be very boring to watch even if it is the fastest possible.
But Speedruns Galore doesn't care HOW entertaining the run is, just as long as it's fast, and it records all the records for the entire game in particular out there in a certain category. And Speedruns Galore needs to get a REAL server, not just use google sites, because there is a limit to how much you may post using Google Sites, and it's also just a crappy way to make a website.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Why comparing to a whole different site? At TASvideos we make and watch runs because it is entertaining. I don't make a run because I want a record or anything, I personally wouldn't make runs if I enjoyed to do it. I also want people to enjoy what I'm making.
Same with watching, I do it to be entertained. If I don't like what I'm watching, there's no point in keep watching the run. No one will notice if a few frames were lost to do something more entertaining. But you'll notice if the entertaining part isn't in the run.
Let's say a glitch in the game made the whole game black, you as a viewer wouldn't be able to see anything, but with the TAS tools you are still able to TAS the game. This glitch saves 5 frames in a 1 hour run. Would you have prefered the faster run or the run where you can see the game?
It isn't like people waste several minutes in order to do something more entertaining. It's usually just about a few frames, a few frames no one will notice.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
In the end all TASes go for fastest time. After some improvement attempts, entertainment becomes redundant.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
That's ridiculous. I think that no matter what, TASes should aim for the absolute fastest time and entertainment if POSSIBLE! Although, I thought it meant that you do whatever you want while waiting for a certain thing to happen.
That would preclude things like 100% runs or runs that use an alternative playable character. (In those speed is the secondary goal, while the main objective is the primary goal.)
TASes with only speed are very boring, whats the point to make a tas if Nobody will want to watch it, to proof something?, Its not like you will get money just because you are Speedy,
but anyway per example tases with Strong Glitch ratio are very entertaining like Super Mario 64 0 stars or megaman & bass 100 discs, and they are very fast tases
Joined: 12/21/2011
Posts: 31
Location: The Magic Kingdom
But speed IS entertainment to me. I understand it only saves a few frames, but I attempt to get the FASTEST TIME for my GBA DKC3 TAS. I can't even find any places to trade of speed for entertainment...
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Not all games are suitable for this tradeoff.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 12/21/2011
Posts: 31
Location: The Magic Kingdom
If people want to trade off speed for entertainment, then why does TAS stand for Tool-Assisted "Speed"run? I understand it can also stand for Tool-assisted superplay, but I think of that as like a random route, glitchfest, or freerun.
In fact the official expansion of TAS is "Tool-Assisted Superplay". Your association of that term with freeruns is your own problem.
Bottom line is, if the movie isn't entertaining, then it most likely won't get published. Fortunately many people find fast runs entertaining, so we tend to aim for speed. But in situations where that doesn't make a very interesting run, the runners do something else.
More examples of speed-entertainment tradeoffs:
* Super Smash Bros. We had a number of high-speed runs submitted that were generally poorly-received by the non-SSB-playing audience. The current run plays around more and was much better-received.
* River City Ransom. While we do have a speed-oriented run here, the better-known run is more about showing off just how goofy this game is.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Brain Age is a good example of a movie that would be better if it aimed for entertainment. A speedrun would look like this instead; not very entertaining at all.
In fact the official expansion of TAS is "Tool-Assisted Superplay".
Not really. The only place where it's expanded like that that I can find of is in the forum logo (for whatever reason). Everywhere else, eg. in all the articles, it's expanded as "tool-assisted speedrun". I'm not sure where you are getting this "official" thing from. AFAIK there's no official stance on what it means, but by far the most commonly used meaning for the S is "speedrun".
For some reason that I cannot fully comprehend some people here are very insistent that the S must not mean "speedrun". That sounds as silly as someone insisting that the S in "SDA" must not mean "speed" but "super". (After all, there are also alternative categories there, such as 100% completion.)
Yes, there are some runs published in this site where speed is not a goal at all. However, those are the rare exceptions, not the rule.
Personally I find it far more entertaining to call the main character 'Link' so the dialogue works properly, rather than calling him 'A' and saving half a second typing it in. That's certainly one speed/entertainment trade off which I'd like more people to consider, giving proper names to your character.
In fact the official expansion of TAS is "Tool-Assisted Superplay".
Not really. The only place where it's expanded like that that I can find of is in the forum logo (for whatever reason). Everywhere else, eg. in all the articles, it's expanded as "tool-assisted speedrun". I'm not sure where you are getting this "official" thing from. AFAIK there's no official stance on what it means, but by far the most commonly used meaning for the S is "speedrun".
Its officialness comes from Biswqit declaring it to be so, and the later maintainers of the site declining to disagree with him.
I get what you're saying though -- it's a bit like prescriptivist vs. descriptivist linguistics. Everyone uses "speedrun", ergo the standard definition is "speedrun". Of course, standard isn't necessarily official. The official viewpoint may be in the minority though.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
It's a very difficult thing to expressly separate. No matter what is done with the website, there will always be a group of people who feel getting the absolute lowest time is worth any sacrifice, even that of the game itself. At the same time, there will always be a group of people who feel having faster runs means nothing if they're not entertaining, and that there should be a limit to just how unfun a run could be. And, as typical for groups with opposed goals, they will commonly insult and flame the beliefs of the other group.
The greatest problem with this, however, is that TASVideos has been somewhat inconsistent in its preference. On one hand, there are rules in place that lend strength to "fun > speed", such as "don't use J version just for faster text". But at the same time, runs that forfeit a majority of the game through game-breaking glitches have obsoleted runs that haven't used those glitches, such as what happened with Chrono Trigger.
Right now, the division between the two groups is heating up, with a lot of contention with the new Kirby's Adventure run and the in-production Super Mario World runs that skip to credits instantly, not actually achieving 'game completion' by the game's own rules. And these runs have a dangerous level of precedent, due to the Super Mario Land 2 run that obsoleted the "defeat final boss" run with a "warp directly to credits" run.
I don't know exactly what the best way to separate these two types of videos would be, but be separated they must, because this "TASuperplay vs TASpeedrun" competition will not resolve itself, and it would be tragic to lose either type of video.
First a movie gets submitted, and ends up accepted despite breaking rules other runs have been rejected for. And when I vote less than spectacularly on this movie, I become the victim of harassment and threats.
Yay, favoritism.
I think that a distinction should be made between "contains speed/entertainment tradeoffs" and "sloppy play".
The former usually means putting some artificial constraint to the run (such as "don't use this glitch" or "collect this optional item"), but then completing the game as fast as possible within that constraint. (Other artificial constraints that are used for entertainment include things like 100% completion or using an alternative (but slower) playable character.)
The latter means that frames are wasted for no good reason. This is usually frowned upon, because TASes aim for perfection. Wasting frames for no good reason is not perfection.
In the former case putting a constraint for entertainment is not compromising in perfection. The run is still perfect; it's just that it's abiding to some deliberately chosen constraint to make the run more interesting.
And these runs have a dangerous level of precedent, due to the Super Mario Land 2 run that obsoleted the "defeat final boss" run with a "warp directly to credits" run
DarkKobold made an excellent point about that in the submission thread for the Super Metroid RBO run; the previously published any% run used the pipe glitch too, just not to the same extent that the glitched movie which obsoleted it did. He further went on to say that he'd welcome an any% without the pipe glitch.
And these runs have a dangerous level of precedent, due to the Super Mario Land 2 run that obsoleted the "defeat final boss" run with a "warp directly to credits" run
DarkKobold made an excellent point about that in the submission thread for the Super Metroid RBO run; the previously published any% run used the pipe glitch too, just not to the same extent that the glitched movie which obsoleted it did. He further went on to say that he'd welcome an any% without the pipe glitch.
I'm aware of the circumstances of the run. However, I understand that perhaps Super Mario Land 2 was not the greatest example.
Possibly a better example would be Chrono Trigger, where Inichi's save-corruption run obsoleted Hero of the Day's run. The reason was given that Hero's run was so old and unoptimized that it needed to be replaced, but rather than allow it to be replaced on its own terms, it was knocked down by the glitched run, which actually served to deter anyone from making a true save-corruption-free run of Chrono Trigger. While it was said that Hero's run also used glitches, it's not even comparable to the level of glitches Inichi used.
I have no desires to second-guess DarkKobold's rationale (quite the opposite, in fact, he makes a lot of calls I agree with), it is just that this past week has seen a sudden surge in glitchy runs, which has caused a heated argument in regards to records and categories. And it is because of the precedent set by CT and SML2 that makes this dangerous, because either precedent is followed and we lose non-glitched speedruns of Earthbound and Super Mario World forever, or precedent is denied and we are stuck with the uncomfortable idea that the non-glitched Chrono Trigger run was killed off for no real reason.
(On an unrelated note, I'm beginning to wonder exactly what counts as "completing the game" as per the rules. Especially as the aforementioned Earthbound and Super Mario World runs are stuck wondering if it's "get to credits" or "get to the 'The End' screen".)
First a movie gets submitted, and ends up accepted despite breaking rules other runs have been rejected for. And when I vote less than spectacularly on this movie, I become the victim of harassment and threats.
Yay, favoritism.
Joined: 12/21/2011
Posts: 31
Location: The Magic Kingdom
There are a lot of examples of different games that could be entertaining aimed for the fastest time or to be most entertaining, but I don't see any point in wasting frames just to make a run more entertaining. I think a lot of people probably use the speed/entertainment tradeoffs as an excuse for not knowing how to do a certain trick properly. I think if you don't know how to do a trick, just be honest with people and play without the trick instead of trading it off. That's just lame.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people don't do that, but the thing is, speed IS entertainment to me. If you have a point when you're just waiting for something to happen and you might as well do something else while you wait (such as Footrace with Koopa the Quick in SM64) would be a great time to show off some really fast button presses and random glitches that are not needed but are very entertaining instead of risking losing a couple frames just to entertain someone. This is just my point of view, and I don't want to "fight" like someone above said. I just want to be me, and I think you all who think about "fighting" should do the same.
