Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
The mistake I made was not picking up the ether earlier. I could have shopped once instead of twice.
The ether is needed because it is faster than shopping at junon, and I needed to buy grenades. The remaining 10 grenades may help later on with more complex boss strategies.
Deadly waste is probably a bad idea.
Toothache is harsh.
And my calculations show that the glitch-fest is now faster than the normal way.
hmm, so basically you could have skipped one shopping trip, the last one in midgard, but then wouldn't you still have to shop again before jenova birth, thus no real savings, prolly extra time since the last midgard shopping trip is such a small detour?
And you could get the bio and the deadly waste, deadly waste does bio 2 right, so I was the under the assumption that deadly waste was just like casting bio 2 and assumed bio 2 would be notably more damage than bio 1, and about 1/3 of the total damage in the sea monster fight was from the bio 1? Maybe this isn't right though, basically we'd need to know how much deadly waste instead of bio 1 saves in these boss fights, I'd would think it'd be more than 5 seconds.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I do too, but I still want to understand what the fastest way to run this game would be even there may already be mistakes? I'm not really seeing a flaw in my reasoning, and no one is pointing one out. Maybe there is something I'm assuming that's wrong, I'm not sure and I'm no expert on this game, I'd just like to know what's wrong with my reasoning if there is anything or be confirmed that something else is faster. So far no one has done either, I've just been given explanations that I've pointed out flaws in and no.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 9/7/2005
Posts: 144
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
janus wrote:
Way back when I played the game, I noticed that the item curing fury can acutally give it. And from what I remember, it doesn't influence precision at all
It's called Hyper, and it induces Fury status. Fury causes the afflicted character to take slightly more damage from attacks, deal slightly more damage with physical attacks, and fills the limit break gauge more when hit than normal status. The downside, for non-TAS players at least, is that it reduces your accuracy by a fair amount. It can be quite frustrating for a console player to miss more often.
And Spider-Waffle, regarding the Deadly Waste, Toothache posted a bit ago that the Deadly Waste item is not really a free casting of Bio2. It uses the Bio2 animation, but it does less damage than a grenade, albeit spreading it throughout the entire enemy formation.
So deadly waste doesn't do damage over time like bio 2 the spell, or it just does very little damage spread out over time, how much damage does it do exactly to each of the 3 biological bosses it could be used on?
And I don't see how you could skip a shopping trip even if you got the ether earlier, because you only had 9 extra grenades after genobirth, and you collect 2 ethers, phoenix down, hi-potion after first shopping which is like 40 grenades.
I was suggesting possibly getting 253 more gill for first time shopping and skipping the ether in the garden and second midgard shopping, which sets you for midgard, then getting 800 more gill somehow(this might take too long but I suspect it can be done with not much delay) and shop again before genovabirth. It would be like 6s difference but I'd just like to know which is faster.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
You need to be more precise than just saying 'getting 800 more gill somehow'. Unless you can tell us precisely where this money is coming from, and estimate the amount of time it will cost, it will likely not be any faster than the current situation.
I deal only in facts. Perhaps you should too.
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
exileut wrote:
I want to see antd not quit after the immense amount of time he has put into this project. Is there a strategy for that?
im not quitting :-O just busy for a long time, starting today
i'll resume when i have time
oh yeah, we tested a different tifa strategy
the problem is it is too luck reliant even for a tas
sith: mystify=added effect
tifa: near-death, powersoul, powerwrist, berserk, death sentence [no deathblow]
this does 1200 to palmer, the critical does 2400
the problem is that the critical is very unlikely (0 out of 10,000+ attempts)
it seemed that her luck stat was too low
once raised to 255 it hit after 3 attempts :P
Is there any nearby Luck Sources that might help? Also have you been trying to manipulate Luck level ups on the way?
Crit % chance = [(Attacker's Lck + Attacker's Lvl - Target's Lvl) / 4]
Palmer is L38, so the chance would be greatly modified by even a couple of Luck increases over the base. I'd assume that Tifa's Luck + Level is lower than 38, so there's no chance of a crit there until it at least reaches a total of 42.
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
I haven't been aggressively manipulating luck, but I have to some extent.
The FF7 guy, Brutalal, who has more knowledge than all of us combined, said that there's no point manipulating luck to its highest point. This is because it would take a very complicated formula to maximise it (similar to how difficult it is to get max HP/MP). A big leap in luck now would mean virtually no leap next time, etc.
So it would only seem feasible to manipulate the luck stat immediately before something that requires it. Materia Keeper precedes Palmer.
I think her luck and level is 36 or 37. I don't know about the location of luck sources.
After checking a guide, Luck Sources seem a waste of time. There's one in Junon, and 2 in Nibelheim from the Black Cloak guys, but all of them require a detour to get. The next one after that does not appear until Northern Crater.
I'm not sure how you would get an extra 253 early in midgard and 800 before genovabrith, I'm no expert, I was hoping someone else might have a better idea of how to get it, I don't think with expert knowledge it'd be hard to know what all your options for getting the extra money are. My best idea would be picking up some cheap item early in midgard somewhere and getting an item in one of those towns, I know there's a few which take very small detours, but I don't know what items they are, that's where an expert comes in and can either refute idea with explanation or confirm it.
And how much damage over time does deadly waste do to the 3 bosses it could be used on, I thought it did more dot than casting bio1, the only thing I can find on the net is that deadly waste is the same as casting bio2, but you guys are saying that's not quite right. I'm almost positive it does dot though, at least comparable to bio1. And this probably doesn't work but can you have an enemy taking dot from deadly waste and bio1 at the same time?
picking up luck stats for small detours, such as 15s or less seems like it could be highly plausible. Your at 38, you need 42, you can get some extra luck from 1 battle before hand, this amount I don't know maybe it's 3, then you'd just need 1 or 2 extra luck to go from having no chance of the crit to having some chance at the crit, It comes down to how much time this crit attacks saves and how much time the detour is and if detour is even nessisary or if detour will even be enough.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 6/5/2006
Posts: 188
Location: Malmö, Sweden
I think poison status is the same poison status no matter how you inflict it. So Bio1, Bio2(,Bio3?) and Deadly Waste should all do the same amount of dot. However, deadly waste does less immediate damage.
Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?
Oh that's quite weak then, so at best it would do more initial damage than casting bio1 and save using a grenade, but time to throw grenade and steal deadly waste are about the same, plus you'd have to equip steal to a non-C character, but you would save a grenade, so the 80g saved would have be worth like 4s for it to be worth it, seems unlikely.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
The mistake I made was not picking up the ether earlier. I could have shopped once instead of twice.
This I still don't agree with, I can't possibly understand how you're going to shop only once before genovabirth. In the run you finish genovabirth with 10 nades remaining, and second time shopping you buy over 40 nades, getting the ether before first time shopping would only give you 19 more grenades at the most, so you'd still be at least 11 grenades short for genovabirth. Are there any flaws in this reasoning?
Getting the ether before first shopping or after I don't think makes any time difference. I see no way around shopping twice before genovabirth. However, I do see a possibility of skipping the ether and shopping the second time in another town. It just requires 253g more before first shopping, and 800g more before shopping in the other town. So far no one with proper knowledge has been able to confirm or deny whether this option would work or not.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 9/7/2005
Posts: 144
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Spider-Waffle wrote:
So deadly waste doesn't do damage over time like bio 2 the spell, or it just does very little damage spread out over time, how much damage does it do exactly to each of the 3 biological bosses it could be used on?
Looks like I was beaten to a response... It has a chance of inflicting Poison status, yes, but as has been said, you get the Poison materia just before HO512 in the Shinra building at nearly zero time cost. It's not worth the time it takes to steal and/or win Deadly Waste.
So I've read some guides, and watched the run again. you can get 2 potions at the start from the body, not sure how long it takes, and win a potion from the first battle. Then there's 2 potions early on you can just pickup at about 1s each, you can also get a phoenix-down from the guy in the back of the train, not sure how long this takes, then there's a potion and phoenix-down by the bed in aeris' house, not sure how long it takes to get these.
So that's 1200 extra gill; if my calculations are correct that's enough (1 extra potion even) to skip the ether in the garden and shop again in midgar, instead of a slower town. This would save 12s and getting the extra items I believe would take somewhere on the order of under 12s. Does this sound right? Also you could get just 3 potions or 1 phoenix-down before first shopping trip and get 800g with other items later that might be more time efficient and shop in another town.
So basically I think there are more time efficient items than the 12s ether in the garden combined with the fact that the ether is about 1000g surplus.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
What do you think about my idea to skip the ether now? Since you have 10 extra nades after genovabrith it seems you'd only need about 700g extra, There's plenty of other smaller items such as potions and phoenix-downs in midgar which take small amounts of time to get. It really seems to me that getting these smaller items would take less than the 12s it takes to get the ether.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I think the point is he didn't want to have to redo the entire TAS just to fix a minor error. Cash planning will inevitably be a factor in the next version of this, but for now I'd rather just stick with getting as much done as possible. You are quibbling over less than 30 seconds of a 7-hour movie, and it's not relevant to mull over it as much as you have been doing, just for some small ego-stroking or percieved chance to prove you are contributing, when in fact you are wasting everyone's time.
tl;dr, let's move on and focus on the rest of the game, that stuff can wait for another version.
Well I know it won't be changed in this version, but again I want to know for my own knowledge what the fastest way to beat this game is. We might not get to see the perfect run right now, but if I can imagine it in my head that's still pretty good. Also figuring out this stuff now for future runs can't hurt. I still want this run to continue as is.
What's the current best speedrun to watch now so I can get ideas for improvement before this run gets to them?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
I've passed Garland's speed run.
Farringa's run is probably the fastest one that is complete:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/FinalFantasy7.html
This run does not always use the fastest strategies.
Or read the speed run FAQ on gamefaqs, which is what I'll probably be using.
