I apologize for not being around to discuss this. I've been pretty busy getting ready for Christmas. :)
Bob Whoops, your comments on analogies make sense. No analogy is perfect, and people often nitpick them too much!
Josh, you make a very good point about the effects of "perfect" runs. Not everyone is affected by them in the same way. I know that some of my fellow speed runners like having an optimal roadmap to follow. It certainly means less wasted effort in pursuing bad ideas. You're the same Josh that is mentioned at Eric Roman's DC site aren't you? He and I used to correspond quite a bit back in the days.
Blechy, I think you summarized my feelings pretty well with your post. In general, when I see an impressive legitimate gaming achievement, it ignites my competitive spirit and makes me want to play the game. I basically get the opposite feeling from watching a tool assisted video. I guess the simplest solution there is to just not watch a tools run. ;) BTW, I feel honored that my video inspired you to purchase Super Monkey Ball 2. It is an amazing game!
Emptyeye, you're right that a big part of the original controversy was over labeling. A lot of people that otherwise wouldn't have been upset about these videos were pretty ruffled about the lack of descriptions on the videos themselves. There are quite a few gamers with moderate viewpoints that have absolutely no issues with tool assisted videos provided that they are labeled as such. I've talked to others who lament the day that re-recording was put into an emulator. I'd count myself among these, but it's just something that we have to accept. The genie is out of the bottle, and there's no putting it back in. No amount of crying is going to change that.
I'll address some of your last points:
I personally feel that if you're speedrunning games primarily for some sort of Internet glory, you should really rethink your motives.
Agreed. In fact, being known for video games isn't always a good thing. When people who work in my building found out that I broke the SMB WR (it was on the front page of the newspaper), I'm 99% positive that I lost points with a girl that I had been eying...
Nor do I buy the argument that timeattackers are somehow less skilled than speedrunners.
Very true. Which activity you participate in does not determine your ability at playing games. Skill at playing games obviously helps in both cases. I do buy the argument that less skill is necessary to make an impressive looking time attack. This is one of the reasons it is appealing. I'd be very surprised if the authors of the best time attacks are not very skilled at real time play as well.
MahaTmA wrote:
My general idea is, that the key word here is not "competition," as many people seem to think, but "entertainment."
Most people that oppose tool assisted runs understand this. Here's a thought: How do you feel about pop music artists (like Ashlee Simpson) lip sync'ing at live events? It's actually a very common practice. They do it so that the performance is entertaining, but does it bother you at all?
-ziplock- wrote:
being discouraged by Morimoto's video surprises me.
Ah, you have hit upon one of the important points. Estimating the theoretical best time for a game is part of my own speed run process. Having a target time to shoot for is necessary. The discouraging thing is that these times are actually being achieved through the use of emulator tools. I know that not everyone feels this way, but it has a spoiling effect for me. Doing NES speed runs now feels like "sloppy seconds" if you take my meaning. Legit runs have the opposite effect most of the time. Seeing a great player achieve something is pretty inspiring.
Hehe, it's funny that you should mention Skip Rogers. I found one of his Nintendo videos on E-Bay recently and purchased it. It should be arriving any day now! This video was ridiculed mercilessly but quite humorously at seanbaby's NES site. I'm looking forward to seeing it.
Deviance wrote:
I've typed hundreds of words debating this topic over the past months so I'm not going to get into it again.
I understand completely. I got really tired of talking about it earlier this year, and in many cases the discussion becomes counter-productive. Besides, even if detractors somehow win the philosophical debate, it isn't going to stop people from making tool assisted runs.
I haven't been checking this forum for a while, but I decided to see what was going on in this neck of the woods, and I saw this topic.
I've always thought that civilized discussion on this topic was a good thing, but unfortunately these debates usually degenerate into flame wars which is why I never got involved in the infamous GameFaqs discussions a few months back.
I think that there's still some misunderstanding on both sides of this. There was a discussion here before which I initiated, but I think we all just got sick of talking about it at the time. :) Let me try to explain my position again on the tool assisted time attacks.
My first point concerns the videos themselves. I've stated in the past many times that these videos have good qualities. Many people do find them entertaining, and they do have great informative value. I've learned some new tricks from them myself, just as I have learned new things from legit videos and FAQs. I think that any reasonable gamer will agree that the resulting product taken on its own merits is good. As a gamer, I admire the creativity and effort that goes into making a good time attack. In fact, I have complimented them on occasion.
My objection to tool assisted time attacks is philosophical in nature. To me, how one accomplishes something is just as important as what one accomplishes. I've always been opposed to Utilitarian based ethics in which the goal is the primary concern. I believe that there is a fair balance that must be kept between the "means" and the "end". I don't believe that there's anything inherently wrong with what you do here, but I do stand by my belief that it is harmful to competitive and achievement based gaming on the whole. As a hardcore gamer, the usage of tools to purposefully defeat the challenge of playing a game as it was designed just bothers me at a deep level.
I'm going to use Golf as an example for comparison. Golf is similar to speed runs in many respects. You play through a course to the best of your ability, and you compete indirectly with others by comparing final results. Now, imagine that someone invented a special type of self-guiding golf club. This club would come with a handheld laser pointer, which you would use to define a destination for the ball. The club would then aid your own natural swing to get the result that you wanted. I'm just speculating, but I think many people would love this idea and use it for training. It would help you learn the motions and develop muscle memory for making accurate shots. It would also allow you to make some amazing shots that would otherwise be humanly impossible.
I think that most purists would reject this device on principle, but I think many would tolerate it as a practice tool. Now take it a step further and imagine that a new league was created in which these clubs were allowed, and they would play on the same courses that non-assisted players used although records and scores would technically be separate. I think there would be a lot of angry and disenfranchised players, and I believe that they would be justified in feeling that way. Resentment between the two parties would be a natural result.
I think that the Golf analogy is not very different from what has happened with speed runs and achievement based gaming in general. The problem isn't jealousy. I'm truly not very concerned about how many people see my work or that my work might possibly be overshadowed by tool assisted videos. I mainly make videos to provide proof and to let my online friends enjoy my work. I was taping my achievements long before I even knew about capture cards, online videos, and Twin Galaxies. I don't play for recognition although that is nice. I play because I find it satisfying to master a game from scratch or at the very least play it well.
Someone once asked me why I haven't done a speed run for SMB3. I did not give the complete answer for fear of igniting another argument. I cited the random hand levels in world 8, which is completely true, but I did not mention that seeing Morimoto's video last year ruined that game for me. Not knowing how a perfect run would play out is part of the appeal in striving for it, which presumably motivates many of you to strive for perfection. Unfortunately, it just isn’t fun to mimic a run which I have no hope of surpassing.
Anyway, I have a tendency to be very long winded in opinion posts so I'll shut up for now. I welcome any civil discussion although to be perfectly honest I think this is something that we'll just have to "agree to disagree" on.
Hehe, I was partially joking with my comment. I just downloaded a vid, and basically all it said was "tool-assisted" and had a link to the site. That is far from "clear" Phil, but I don't really have a problem with it. Most lazy people (a high % of viewers sadly) aren't going to read a paragraph-long explanation anyway so a link to the How/Why page is sufficient. It's too bad that the How/Why page has some inaccuracies though.
It was a very well written article for sure even though I generally dislike time attacks. I'm exclusively a speed runner, and I thought you did a good job in making it clear that "time attacks" are not the same as speed runs. I'm happy that the people at this forum took the time to help you understand this distinction. Great work!
I like the final result. It demonstrates a near perfect play which is very interesting to watch. I have a fundamental problem with the methods used to make the videos which makes my admiration of them irrelevant. I do, however, admire the work and thought that goes into the videos, which is why I don't go around bashing every one that I see.
So, to answer your question, the methods are what I have a problem with, specifically slowing the game down and using save states. In contrast, I really like what Marshmallow did with Yoshi's Island. He played just the individual levels without slowing the game down or using save states. This allowed him to maintain a pretty high level of play due to the greater granularity of playing single levels at a time.
On top of all this, except for sdkess, I don't know any of these other guys yelling. sdkess is one of the more reserved arguers, but these other more ignorant guys are relative nobody's.
I don't want anybody to think that I'm one of these "yellers". I've stayed out of the recent arguments at GameFaqs because the exchanges were not kept civil. I have no problem with most of the people here on a personal level, but I do have a problem with people being stubborn jackasses on either side of the argument.
Anyway, I just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about me. My opinion of emulator assisted videos has not changed (I don't like them), but I'm not "with" the flamers that TSA is talking about. I don't even know who they are. They just came out of the woodwork with zero karma accounts and commenced flaming. They're actually hurting their own cause by behaving the way that they do.
TG times from the moment you press "Start" on 1 Player and stops when you hit Bowser for the final time. SDA times it differently. I think they time from the moment you can control Mario on the map (Yoshi's House) until the Princess comes out of Bowser's vehicle, which is when you lose control.
I watched Bladegash's run, and his was around 11:00 by TG rules which is 12 seconds faster than my best (I beat the time from my video a few weeks ago). I've beaten some of his level times myself so his video could certainly be faster.
I was scared when I first came here and saw how many posts had been made in a single day. I thought that I might be in big trouble. :)
First, I'm not sure what went wrong with feitclub and I. I originally felt like all of his posts had an agitated and negative tone directed at me so I responded accordingly. I probably misinterpreted. I think he also misinterpreted most of my comments which did aggravate me. Oh well. If you do come back and read this feitclub, I'm sorry for the way things went.
feitclub wrote:
Cheating, by definition, involves deception.
Not necessarily. You can cheat without deceiving. Cheating is often accomplished by deceiving, but unfairness is actually the core of cheating. Anything a person does that violates the rules of their activity is cheating even if they don't hide it.
feitclub wrote:
And if you enjoy time attacks but still describe us as "cheaters," then you are, as Bisqwit put it, "ignorant."
I don't think ignorance is implied at all here. Perhaps hypocrisy, but not ignorance. I have watched some yes, but it was for knowledge, not enjoyment. I wanted to see if there were any tricks I was missing.
Bisqwit wrote:
Teaching your brain how to play a game extraordinarily well is just waste of time when you can teach a computer that much faster with better results :)
This is a great quote because it demonstrates just how different my motives are from Bisqwit's. If I understand this, Bisqwit's only desire is to produce perfect play. For him, the result is everything. He has stated this before as have many other time attackers.
My goal is also to produce a perfect play, but I require it to be an unenhanced, human performance. This is the way the games were designed to be played, and it is the way I enjoy playing them. Results are important, but only if I achieve them naturally. Otherwise, my achievement means nothing to me and is a waste of time. Deviance is right in that I'm focused on my own performance as a player.
BTW, speed running is a lot more than just reflexes. Quick thinking is a must to minimize consequences of mistakes, and good strategy/analysis is no less necessary than it is in a time attack. Sometimes I choose not to do things in the optimal way because the sub-optimal way is easier and takes less effort to learn. It's a cost/benefit analysis. Speed running takes both thinking and reflexes. That's why it's so hard!
Deviance wrote:
We can't agree because we're aiming for different goals, and until everyone realizes that, the war between time attack and speed run players will never end.
I agree although I think "motive" better describes our difference since many of our goals are the same. If you strip out our motives and look purely at the actions we make, the only difference between what we do and what you do is the use of emulator features. Playing the game perfectly is a goal we have in common. Making a video of this play is a goal we have in common. Motive is where the difference lies. My primary motive as a speed runner is to play the game as well as I can. Your primary motive as a time attacker is to make the best video that you can. It's a fine line, but it is a line nonetheless. We have basically the same end goal, but since our motives are different, our rules for reaching our goal is different. Therein lies the source of the problem.
Anyway, I'm spending way too much time with these posts so I better give it a rest. I wanted to respond to Ramzi's and cat's most recent posts, but I'll just sum up by saying that your posts were nicely stated, and I agree with you both.
Double post I know, but Ramzi's post warrants a response.
"Please, my request to everybody is to stop whining and arguing, because it's all very, very stupid."
I don't see much arguing or whining in this thread outside of feitclub. It has been for the most part a civilized discussion. I don't think it's stupid at all.
A general idea I get from your comments Ramzi is that people are taking this stuff too seriously. You may be right, but that doesn't change the situation. The fact of the matter is that many people are pretty dedicated to their chosen pursuits, and when someone puts a lot of effort into something, they tend to have strong feelings about it. This goes for time attack authors and clean players alike. Neither likes to see their hard work criticized or trivialized.
"There's no denying that a lot of TG game experts hate us for making videos that show all the secrets."
I disagree strongly. I feel that it has less to do with giving away secrets and more to do with time attack methods and the upstaging of legit accomplishments. I'm guessing that people like TSA won't tell you their secrets mainly because they don't want to help "cheaters".
"We recently refined the Zelda 1 route, that with perfect fighting will come to sub-28 minutes. Using this route, the world records could be shattered, easily, by the good players."
I'm not so sure about the "easily" part. I watched Arc's Metroid run, but I doubt I'll ever get below 20 minutes (his is 16), and I'm no slouch at the game. You underestimate how caution, imperfection, and luck affect the finish time on a highly difficult path. Even if your Zelda path is the best path for a perfect fighter and lucky gambler, it may not work out so well for a clean run.
"sdkess, did you watch the Ronin video of SMW before doing your WR run? Did it inspire you, or show you something you didn't know?"
I saw it before I had gotten my 11:35, but after I had started working on a speed run for the game. I think my best time was 11:57 at that point. For games I'm going for records on, I like to start from scratch with my own ideas, and then I read FAQS and watch almost any video I can find. There's almost always something you don't know that someone else does! I don't like to watch a video first because it can close your mind to better ideas that you might have thought of on your own.
"Will you share how you shaved off 30 seconds? Would you be upset if I told?"
I think you know the answer to this. As a competitive gamer, strategy and knowledge is part of the competition. I'm not going to give away all of my tricks to someone I hardly know (not that they're big secrets), but if someone else knows them and tells them that's fine. If you figure something out, you earn the right to do what you please with that info.
"I think I may be one of the few on these boards who don't think video games are life."
Not finishing your homework and lying in bed thinking about optimal Zelda paths... Soon you'll be one of us ;)
Feitclub, I don't know what your problem is. Your attitude towards me is a perfect example of the problem we're discussing. We've both worked on Bionic Commando. Ramzi, currently a Zelda person, is clearly annoyed by TSA and other Zelda experts at TG. See a pattern? There's definitely friction between egos on both sides of this.
My goal wasn't to come here to "tell you" that you're a cheater. I'm sorry that you got that idea, and I guess it's partially my fault for not making that clearer. Name calling has become standard with people like you being called a cheater, and people like me being called ignorant. Neither group is happy about it. I was hoping to help provide an understanding of why the two groups seem to be at odds with each other. Without understanding each other, we'll end up hating each other in the end. For all I know, it may turn out to be situation where we just agree to disagree.
By the way, the sports analogy is not illogical. You're the one who is not making sense. I've never heard of a pro athlete or pro gamer who plays only for the money. The words "love of the game" are heard all too often. Playing sports seriously as a profession has not stopped them from enjoying it. Most would play professionally even without the ridiculous salaries, and I think many would play as a hobby even if there were no professional leagues.
The key truth here is that it's almost impossible to be successful at the highest levels if you don't love what you're doing.
I have no need to make money at playing games so I play what I want to, which is currently the NES. If one day a pro NES league pops up, maybe I'll give it a whirl!
I'm glad that people here took my comments as I intended them for the most part. I appreciate your civility Boco, Deviance, cat, et al. I'm definitely not trying to criticize what you're doing or say it is inherently "wrong" in any way. You have a right to play the game any way that you want to, by your own rules, and your efforts produce very good results. I was just hoping to give some insight into why some gamers (who think along the same lines as I do) view your time attacks in a negative way.
I've used "cheating" features in emulators myself when experimenting with various tricks in a game. Generally, there are no set "rules" for how you practice your gameplay so nobody really cares if I do this. I also used the 30 man code for Contra the last time I played it with a friend. It's cheating, yes, but it's a lot more fun since my buddies rarely get past the first level without it, and they end up stealing all of my men :) For any public or "official" gaming accomplishments, I always play clean and always will.
I think Deviance's post is well thought out and probably close to the mark. I think a lot of "clean" players, especially ones that make videos, have felt undermined by the time attacks, and rightly so. I felt that way to an extent, but I don't mind so much because I didn't really like capturing videos to begin with. It's time consuming and the process is a chore. I mainly started doing it for proof purposes (I don't enjoy being called a liar) and also because I was getting a lot of requests. Now that I'm involved over at TG, capturing my videos for proof is no longer a necessity. I also get less requests now that the time attacks are around. On the bright side, less time capturing videos means more time for playing games!
The only response to my original post that seemed pissy was feitclub's. My response:
""Serious Gamers" is, in my opinion, an absurd oxymoron. Games are supposed to be fun, and most of these games we are playing were designed for children."
I like playing these games precisely because I enjoyed them as a child. They are fun to me, and I don't think being a serious gamer is an oxymoron at all if professional sports isn't. The games they play were designed for fun, but pro athletes take them very seriously while still having fun. "Fun" and "serious" are not mutually exclusive. Almost any pursuit or hobby can become "serious" without being an oxymoron.
"If you guys want to practice for days/weeks/whatever to produce an "authentic" speed-run, I hope to Christ you're enjoying yourself. Otherwise you should stop."
I play games because I like them and because I consider myself good at them. I also enjoy competition so that's why I compete for records. I don't understand how you could possibly question my motives for playing cleanly when what you're doing with time attacks would be dreadfully boring, tedious, and completely unfulfilling for me. I gain my satisfaction from actually playing, not from trying to impress anyone. I sincerely hope you find making time attacks fun or else you should take your own advice and stop.
EDIT: Removed some potentially inflammatory comments I made which really weren't necessary.
I pulled the quotes below from the Zelda topic. This post is partially in response to comments made in that topic, but it is also a general response to comments I've seen elsewhere by people from here. I am posting this here since I do not want to pollute that topic.
"No one has said that there are no rerecordings afaik."
Actually, I've seen some of you announce your video at message boards with a direct link to it without saying anything about your methods. In every case it has caused an uproar. It was only after the flamings that disclaimers became standard procedure. I'm not saying that the intent here was deception, but it was very unwise and resulted in a lot of unnecessary confusion and anger.
"Hmm, ignorant people. If they read the f.a.q they would know that it is no secret that save states have been used."
I'm getting very tired of seeing comments like this one. We understand what you're doing. It is you who do not understand us, and hopefully my post will clarify this. These "ignorant/uninformed" people (like MKM at TG) are not ignorant or uninformed at all. They know exactly how the time attack videos are created and what the goals are. The problem is the differing views on what "cheating" is. Gamers like MKM and myself feel that you are cheating at the game by using save states and slomo. Consider the definition of cheating, and I don't see how any rational person could believe otherwise. It is cheating at playing the game.
However, you're playing the game as a means to an end. Your goal is to make a perfect movie, and you use any means you can to do this. You aren't concerned with the "gamer" rules of playing the game because that is not your goal. I understand this, but it doesn't change the fact that the methods used are considered cheating by basically all serious gamers. This distinction may not be important to you as movie makers, but it is important to gamers who, ironically, happen to be your target audience. It's really no surprise that your videos are sometimes greeted with hostility.
Using save states and slomo is cheating to me regardless of how open about it you are. Being open about it just makes you an honest cheater. ;)
I think most of you are motivated by your love of NES games which is good. I've found some of the videos helpful, and some of them are fun to watch. I know many gamers feel the same way. Just continue to be open about what you're doing and let the viewers judge the results.