I think both Saethori and Cardboard used the entertainment part of the rating system to evaluate Swordless' personality instead of the run, which I didn't expect from any of them. One seems to try to hide this fact with rhetoric and the other didn't even bother explaining his clearly unfair rating.
Your rhetoric would be expected from somebody who just can't see why this would not at all be an entertaining TAS. But people are different. OoT, SM64, SMB3, SMW and a handful other games have such a holy cow status that every time when somebody considers a TAS of any of them extremely unentertaining—and it's not exactly hard to see why—the fans feel the need to defend it and invalidate the "unacceptable" opinion. The act of which, for me, is a load of horseshit.
rog wrote:
You should only watch and rate runs that you think you'll rate higher than at least 1 or so, yes.
What other people should or shouldn't do is not up for you to decide. This "I know better" kind of attitude gets on my bad side all too easily these days; soon I'll stop asking nicely.
MrGrunz wrote:
Why don't you simply do the same, Cardboard?
Because he (and Saethori, for that matter) chooses not to. Some people like surprises, so they subject themselves to things that don't always promise entertainment. Some are completionists, some are just omnivores. It's not your nor anybody else's business how they choose to spend their time.
Saethori wrote:
...Which, in turn, means the ratings currently up do not reflect my honest view of the video. At this point, I would rather put up false ratings than get harassed further.
Which is upsetting at the very least. I try not to waddle through the mess that is OoT threads, but it seems I now have to devote more time to it to shoot down attempts to boss other people around; reading these are very similar in spirit to watching unentertaining movies rather than stopping midways or avoiding them outright.
I agree that Swordless had a moral right to know the reason for the low(er) tech rating, but the discussion shouldn't have escalated much further, definitely not to this point.
you are seriously the worst poster. just the absolute worst person on this site. it's astounding that you're a moderator, or that people even read what you say at all.
i hope i'm entitled to my opinion, even if you disagree with it.
I have a hard time believing you watched the entire 2 hour run and still thought it deserved a .1 entertainment rating. If it was really that bad, you would/should have stopped watching long before the end.
Should have, yes. But I can hardly be objective that way, now can I?
I don't think you ever lose ms as child, unless you unequip it, but i could be wrong.
This is correct.
Enterim wrote:
You'd have to do a pretty wacky beamos hover to get the silver rupee off the ceiling in the Spirit Trial to get those 20 chus, but that's what TASes are for, I guess. Cool route.
This is easy. I was able to select my file (that was saved in Ganon's castle as child), do the hover, get 20 chus, take damage down to half a heart and start talking to Zelda in about 3 minutes (on console). I'm hoping this will be faster for console MST runs.
ZFG ran a 23:29 earlier today, and lots of other runners have times under 30 minutes (many seen here). I can't wait to see how low a TAS can push it. Easily sub20 (from file select to Ganon stab) I think.[/url]
The only warp songs you get from Saw RBA are Prelude, Nocturne, and Serenade (as well as Lullaby). Bolero and Minuet are on a different byte (along with the medallions), and have values too high to RBA anyway.
After KD, I think Serenade is the best bet. You can megaflip into the water below and hess all the way to the fishing pond, hover up using bombs + tektites, steal the rod, then slide out of LH to Gerudo Valley. LH to GV is a little faster than ToT to GV, but only by a couple seconds and costs extra bombs (and ends up being slower if you don't hess out of LH correctly), which is why console players don't typically do it. You have to steal the rod again at some point after KD before LACS, so it probably makes sense to do it along the way to Gerudo.
Just gonna point out that DC on the mush timer is impossible. Once you kill KD there are only 4 ways out of that room: savewarp, die, OI and play a warp song, enter the blue warp.
Savewarping and dying will both revert mush to cojiro, so you would have to go back to the lost woods to get the mush again.
Entering the blue warp will make a Ganonless finish impossible.
You won't have any warp songs until you RBA the saw, which is 2 items after mush. Even so, a warp song will set your mush timer to 1 second remaining, so that wouldn't help anyway.
It can't be done so there's no point in timing it. There's also the matter of needing sword on B to kill KD, then needing a bottle on B when you get saw, but it doesn't matter since this is all impossible theory-route crap. If you aren't using stick B, the only sensible place to do DC is after magic.
edit: I guess after saw but before magic is a possible place for DC, but it doesn't seem faster at all. going from DC up to magic takes way longer than going from magic down to DC, and the warp song out of KD's room to Lake Hylia makes the most sense. Also MrGrunz I hope this is the fastest way to DC from magic, because it looks awesome :)
The one thing that confuses me a bit was the statement that the next TAS most likely will be using a different route, implying that this route is suboptimal. Is that the case, or is that just a prediction?
I don't expect to see a new all dungeons TAS for at least a year (probably several). I predict that the route will change in that time. It always does.
I guess the main problem for RTS is getting the bomb drops, you'd need 2 before DC, which very rare giving you only bushes in KV and some rocks, not sure if you can get a drop from the enemies in DC though?
Saying it takes too long to wait on bombs and you can't get max height is very extraneous unless you provide the numbers and probabilities and have actually done some testing.
And like I said, you don't necessarily need 20 extra bombs after lighting eyes, if it saves 1:00, then you could skip mostly all of the SS/HISS/pressure jumps, which would make the run easier in a way.
Here's a novel idea: why don't you ask the best real-time runners? You know, the people who do runs every day and know what's feasible for real-time and what isn't. Most of them hang around the ZSR forums or IRC channel. The community is very active. It's not like nobody has thought of this before. TASVideos, while a great place to discuss new TAS strategies, is a pretty terrible place to try to come up with the next big console tech.
For the record, yes, you can get a bomb drop from the Beamos in DC. Getting a drop before DC is the bigger problem. You would have to RBA gaunts to even have a chance at all (to pick up bushes), and at that point you're RBAing 3 different items instead of 1 before DC (~15 seconds added just to RBA). If by some miracle you got a drop on the way to DC and a drop from the Beamos, that'd give you 9 bombs. Getting on the head should take at least 6 bombs (I did a triple staircase from the side and was still under the jawline, with no wall to my back). It seems like it'd be more like 10+ given how little height you gain from each hover after staircasing without a wall or the hover boots, but it may as well be a million at that point.
If you somehow get enough drops and show off some crazy hovering skills to get on the head (and still have 2 bombs left to light the eyes), you could get the chest before KD and have 5 bombs. To conserve bombs you could use bomb flowers on KD (slower), end the fight with a deathwarp from another bomb flower (WAY slower), and have 4 bombs for the rest of the run. You need at least 6 just to continue (GC boulders, DMT boulder, Fairy Fountain wall, OI for magic, bridge megaflip, OI for prelude). That puts you at -2 bombs with no superslides or any other timesavers, and it's a long walk to Gerudo Valley.
It's not that it can't be done. It might even be faster (as a TAS would likely show). But nobody is going to do a run with 3 or more REQUIRED miracle bomb drops, along with a crazy hover. But more importantly, even if this was a good idea for the route, bringing it up in this thread is completely pointless. It's a known idea. No console runners are currently buying it. Maybe someday they will, but arguing about it in this thread is completely pointless.
So yeah, can this thread be about TAS strategies please?
A RUN ON THE JAPANESE ROM OF THIS GAME HAS ALREADY BEEN ACCEPTED ON THIS SITE
That isn't really the same situation. Abeshi used the J rom because he is japanese. He did not even intend to submit the run here, until someone saw his run, and encouraged him to do so. The rules state that any version can be used, as long as there is a good reason for using anything other than the U rom. It specifically states that text differences are not a valid reason. It does not say that using a rom that you and your audience will be familiar with is a bad reason.
While i think the rule is silly, and should be abolished altogether, if only to encourage more runs done by Japanese TASers, it's silly to think Abeshi's run sets a precedent here. The situation was entirely different.
Not trying to pick on you rog, since I know you want the rule abolished anyway, but your post just happened to be the best one to quote for this.
I sincerely hope the nationality of a TASer is not taken into account (AT ALL) when deciding whether or not to accept a submission. I've seen a few people in this thread and elsewhere imply that it's somehow more acceptable for abeshi's run to use the J rom than Swordless's. That's pretty incredibly racist, and I hope these feelings are just coming from a few outliers and not shared by the site's staff. If a rule applies to Scottish TASers, the same rule should certainly apply to Japanese TASers (and vice versa).
Exactly how much time is saved by using J instead of U going on text alone, down to the second (or better yet, frame) and how much time could be saved by the fire forest warp thing Swordless Link has mentioned on Youtube.
Thanks in advance.
17:59 <maxx> cardboard of tasvideos demanded that we supply him with the information of A) how much time jp saves over u (in frames) for mst and B) how much time (in frames, or seconds if frames are not available) the fire to forest wrong warp would save in mst
17:59 <maxx> so what are you waiting for
17:59 <maxx> get to timing it
17:59 <ZFG> lmao
17:59 <maxx> it's urgent that we supply him with this information so that he can... not change his mind
The Fire to Forest trick isn't even answerable. It changes the route considerably (in some ways that haven't been completely fleshed out). It's clear that it would save SOME amount of time, but that's about it. For a general idea, it'd probably be in the 2-5 minutes saved range, but there are so many things that could change in the route based on that trick that I'm not even really comfortable with that estimate.
As for the cutscenes, it just doesn't matter. We (the Zelda community) have timed some of them (see above video), and I'm pretty sure darkeye has a somewhat extensive list of timing comparisons for J vs U OoT and MM, but nobody has a precise answer. We know it's a lot faster, and we know approximately by how much, but small things like quicktext being present in different places and routes being faster or slower based on language make it nearly impossible to compare runs in different languages directly unless they use the exact same route. Nobody is going to TAS every cutscene and textbox seen in this run in both languages and compare frames. Sorry.
Whenever this run is eventually improved, it will very probably A) be submitted in Japanese anyway, B) be improved to such a large extent that an English run would be faster even without doing timing conversions, and C) watch different cutscenes and read different textboxes than this run anyway.
Granted, at this time, it's not usable for oot, because there is no reset recording, but dolphin has a bunch of active developers, so that may not be too hard to get added.
I am of the opinion (and other OoT people may disagree with me) that this isn't a big deal. No OoT TAS submitted here before Swordless' very recent MST TAS used resets (because Mupen didn't support them, or maybe they didn't sync). OoT resets can often be simulated by dying. It's a bit slower, but you get the same effect. Console runners only do 2 hard resets in OoT any% (with stick B), and one would probably be slower in a TAS anyway. The only big one is Adult in ToT, and you can die there to get a savewarp type of effect.
It would be slower without resets than with resets, but I think stick B with no resets would be faster than no stick B with resets. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's out of the question.
Unless dying in the temple of time ends up being slower than just doing the previous rba route, and killing ganon.
I don't know off hand if that would be the case though.
I am very positive that it would not be. The new route stands to save several minutes over the previous TAS that kills Ganon. Part of the strength of the new Ganonless trick is that it skips the part of the credit with textboxes that must manually be advanced, so you can end input much earlier.
rog wrote:
Though it also makes it much harder for people to be motivated to do the run, knowing that reset recording could be added the next day, obsoleting half of their run.
This is definitely a valid concern. Based on what I've heard from them, the regular OoT TASers (Swordless, MrGrunz, Slowi, Bloobiebla) are already kind of split on stick B anyway.
Granted, at this time, it's not usable for oot, because there is no reset recording, but dolphin has a bunch of active developers, so that may not be too hard to get added.
I am of the opinion (and other OoT people may disagree with me) that this isn't a big deal. No OoT TAS submitted here before Swordless' very recent MST TAS used resets (because Mupen didn't support them, or maybe they didn't sync). OoT resets can often be simulated by dying. It's a bit slower, but you get the same effect. Console runners only do 2 hard resets in OoT any% (with stick B), and one would probably be slower in a TAS anyway. The only big one is Adult in ToT, and you can die there to get a savewarp type of effect.
It would be slower without resets than with resets, but I think stick B with no resets would be faster than no stick B with resets. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's out of the question.
What exactly is the difference between the N64 rom and the type of rom a VC runs?
The OoT VC ROM is N64 1.2 (the exact same ROM), run in a custom packaged emulator that does some texture replacements on the fly iirc. It's not the ROM that's different for stick on B, it's the emulator.
So what's the difference between a emulator named dolphin running "N64 1.2" and an emulator name mupen running "N64 1.2"? Could we just make a copy of mupen and rename it "dolphinv2" a VC emulator that only works on N64 VC roms?
Ah, I think I misunderstood the question, but I'm sure you already know what I'm going to say. The difference is obviously the level of emulation. To emulate OoT VC as a Wii game (attempting to be as accurate to the Wii behavior as possible), you would need to emulate the VC emulator within a Wii emulator.
If you think of OoT VC as a Wii game, there is something you can do on it that is pretty unique to that version of OoT: you can press the Home button on the Wii remote to bring up the Home menu. If you just run the OoT ROM contained within the VC package in an N64 emulator, then you're not emulating it as a Wii game, you're just replacing the emulator that runs on the Wii with an emulator that runs on the PC.
That said, I don't have a strong opinion about allowing or disallowing stick on B in a TAS (it's accepted in console runs, but obviously only if you're playing a version that supports it), and I don't know how this thread got turned into L+R being allowed or not, since that has nothing to do with what usable stick on B is: an inaccuracy in the emulator.
What exactly is the difference between the N64 rom and the type of rom a VC runs?
The OoT VC ROM is N64 1.2 (the exact same ROM), run in a custom packaged emulator that does some texture replacements on the fly iirc. It's not the ROM that's different for stick on B, it's the emulator.
The text is still incredibly boring to wait through. In fact, it is even more boring, because it's incomprehensible.
No individual cut-scene is significantly shortened, so as a viewer, I watch it, all the cut-scenes feel just as long, but less tolerable. If not for the rule that specifically states text time differences should not be considered in the overall TAS length, then it would make sense to use the Japanese ROM, because all those individual invisible time savings do add up to a measurable difference. But the idea of using the Japanese ROM for entertainment purposes is completely bullshit and counterproductive.
The cutscene from child to adult (after grabbing the Master Sword, up until you regain control of Adult Link in the ToT) is over a full minute faster in Japanese, and the Light Arrow cutscene saves even more time than that.
Anyway, I'm a console OoT runner and I've been following Swordless' TAS since he started working on it (he posted WIPs in the ZeldaSpeedRuns IRC channel pretty frequently, and collaborated with a lot of our users to find the best routes and strategies). This is a fantastic run, Swordless. Congrats not only on finishing such an entertaining and optimized run, but on doing it so quickly. Extremely impressive.