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darkshoxx
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@PLANET
PLANET wrote:
At first I thought there's some C' f g c sorcery going on here, going straight to the Loom and somehow bypassing all of the game ; ), but it wasn't that.
Inspired by the quote and a discussion on discord, there is a way to do that in theory. There's a scummvm debug command "learn drafts" that gives you all notes and drafts. You can then cast "unmake" on the loom (which can only be BAAB ABBA BCCB in the EGA version and BCCB in VGA) without ever leaving the main island and go straight to the end of the game. So if we had an ACE that set the flags for that draft and the required note(s) we'd have our own little credits warp. Sadly I don't know of any crashes on the main island.
darkshoxx
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Hi eien86, sorry if this is impolite, but you've clearly not read the above discussion. You saw the movie, got angry and jumped down here. if you had followed the discussion above you'd have noticed that 1. This was intended to be a part of three submissions, one of which would be the "regular" version, and I therefore won't "resubmit" that in your desired context. 2. The discussion is ongoing on the details. I'll add, just for you, one more time, that I did for Loom the very same thing that I did for Phantasmagoria. Both runs look very similar, and the Phantas one was very popular. Furthermore, if you have seen any regular Speedruns of Loom, a "normal" TAS of Loom will look pretty much identical to it and therefore to me has very little value other than to server as a comparison to a sped-up version. No "speedstrats" or anything has been found that I know of. Again apologies for my tone and assumptions, it's just a bit frustrating, I have made peace with the current state of the discussion, and then the next person comes in and says the equivalent of "YOU'RE RUINING THE GAME!!11!!" If you want to still remove the submission, go ahead.
darkshoxx
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Hi feos, thank you for your response, I was somewhat afraid the post is abandoned and that being a kind of ruling on it's own. Thank you very much for elaborating.
If that mode exists in the original game then it feels legit.
I agree, and it doesn't seem to be the case. It doesn't work on Dosbox or Dreamm engine, and the manual as a section on "function keys", it's not mentioned in there either.
darkshoxx wrote: This makes it the second piece of positive feedback, together with 1 negative vote and 78 views on my unlisted video of people who watched it but didn't dare to vote at all.
Forum is not very active lately.
I think my point was that they didn't vote despite watching it, but it doesn't matter now.
But in any case, we can't rush this, and we don't want to act in a "deal with it" manner, so we're going to need more time on this and the other submission before anything can be decided.
Totally understand. I was rather surprised that the other submission is from Spikestuff themself :) . I'll be patient on this then, no point making the "Ctrl + g" only mode right now if that's equally controversial. And the Vanilla game without those speedsettings is just going to be a very slow walking simulator. I feel it only makes sense to make it if I can contrast it with one of the other two.
darkshoxx
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Hi @DrD2k9, thanks, I think I'm getting a better overview of the problem. If we're allowing any uncapped run, we won't have clearly defined categories to directly compare them to each other. I'm very much in favour of having those, and want to make a Loom run in them as well, as mentioned multiple times. But, is having an uncapped "all goes" category really that bad?
Yet, one argument for keeping the restriction is that allowing things to be TASed at whatever settings an emulator is capable of producing could someday lead to runs that are simply so fast that little to nothing of the game is even seen at all in the resulting run/video.
and wouldn't that be hecking amazing? Wouldn't that look so cool? Imagine having a second version of the Olympics where doping is not only allowed, but all kinds of drugs actively encouraged, taking off all guardrails to find out "okay, but how fast can we REALLY go?"
so fast that little to nothing of the game is even seen
An additional point to that is the current runs of things like OOT, https://tasvideos.org/4324M MegaMan https://tasvideos.org/2601M or SMW https://tasvideos.org/3989M where you also learn net zero about the game. So that in and of itself shouldn't be an argument against my run, right? Regarding the concerns about comparing these to each other, I agree that if the framerate is choosable, the "number of frames" is no longer a good measure of the length of a TAS, but the length in seconds, calculated as (chosen framerate)*(number of frames) is now a metric that can be measured to arbitrary precision and used as a comparison in a potential "choosable framerate" category. So you could try to get a better run on 2000 FPS because it reduces the animation time, or on 500 FPS because the mutliple-second-waiting-sessions will have fewer frames. I am obviously heavily biased, I put in work I don't want it to go to waste. I hope I could make a couple of good arguments towards having such categories. To answer some of the technical questions:
Was disabling v-sync even possible in the original game
The original vsync library was released in 2010, before that there was no vsync. So technically, "enabling" vsync is what wasn't possible.
In the past, we have basically required DOS games to be TASed using settings for the emulated PC that would have been roughly equivalent to real systems around the time a game was released.
Is that written somewhere? It has been very tedious to find exactly which sets of rules apply to your run and where to find them. Can you kindly provide a link to that? All I found was https://tasvideos.org/MovieRules#GameplayMustBeAccurateToHardware Which states that "environment settings explicitly supported by the game or its documentation are allowed" To the best of my knowledge neither the box of the original game https://www.mobygames.com/game/176/loom/cover/group-41455/cover-111569/ nor the manual https://mocagh.org/lucasfilm/loom-manual.pdf mention technical details. But they obviously didn't imagine you to run it with an i9-14900K. The ScummVM documentation however specifically mentions the "really REALLY fast mode" you get by pressing "Ctrl + g"
would a PC around the time that Loom was released be able to match this kind of speed running the game natively in DOS
of course not. Even if your PC had a Turbo button ;-) My whole point is that it doesn't have to.
EDIT: For what it’s worth, I actually enjoyed watching this run.
Yes that is worth a lot. This makes it the second piece of positive feedback, together with 1 negative vote and 78 views on my unlisted video of people who watched it but didn't dare to vote at all. I'm a bit afraid this means we have reached everyone who had an opinion and was willing to share it. If this is the last voice before a judgement on whether I'm allowed to continue on this or not, any chance that, even if not allowed in general, we make this a test case and see how it goes? And to avoid opening floodgates, a restriction like "if you submit an uncapped run, you must ALSO submit a capped run."?
darkshoxx
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This is not addressed an any singe person in particular, it is a general rebuttal of my settings of 1000 FPS, I'm happy for any and all responses and constructive criticism. I've done some tests and did some maths to find out what the actual framerate is that loom is playing when with vsync off. It is far larger than my estimate of 1000 FPS. The first thing I did was start my scummvm EGA Loom in regular Win11, with vsync off, started a game, hit ctrl g, and found a spot with a long tunnel, to be able to count out a long sequence of animation frames. I choose the path back from the Loom to the entrance of the tent. I used an autoclicker to make sure Boppin moves as continuously as possible. That footage is here: https://youtu.be/6MNSlHUpRMc I then cherrypicked (not afraid to admit that, but the error from that hardly hurts my argument) a sequence of 4 frames (with a difference of 3 frames) and counted the animation frames to get the same distance in the TAS, which has 1 animation frame per frame, the entire point of the thing. That analysis is here: https://youtu.be/VNhlWpIJJb4 I do some maths in that video, but let me expand on that here: First frame: 2635 Final Frame: 2819 difference of 184 frames in the animation. Arguments can be made for counting that as 4 or 3 frames, doesn't matter for the argument. Let's play the devil's advocate and be strict, 4 frames: First Method: FPS Conversion Factor Then conversion from Video to Windows gameplay framerate is a factor of 184/4 = 46 Therefore the effective framerate is 46*60 FPS = 2760 FPS , twice as fast as the capped FPS of 1000 Second Method: Frames divided by seconds Video has 4 frames, which is a time of (4 frames)/(60 frames per second) = (1/15) seconds = 0.066666666 seconds Then animation has 184 frames, leading to a framerate of (184 frames) / (1/15 seconds) = (184 frames) / (0.06666666 seconds) = 2760 FPS The result is the same, as it should. If you want to be more lenient, you count that as a difference of 3 frames, leading to 184/(1/20) FPS = 3680 FPS If you have doubts that my video runs at 60 FPS, divide it by 2 to get 1380 FPS, still above 1000 FPS. If you say it comes from cherry picking, run the tests yourself it won't make much difference. With worse frames I'm sure you can get that another good 20% lower, but 1380FPS*0.8 = 1104 FPS Even if you did get it to dip slightly below 1000 FPS, It would still be near it and doesn't invalidate the fact that 1000 FPS is a reasonable framerate for this exact playmode. If anything it could be higher. No Chiptuning, nothing. Please understand that all I'm doing is defending my position. And I'm happy to be wrong and corrected. But so far I have seen no argument on why this shouldn't be a valid movie at 1000 FPS. As explained multiple times, this playmode does not compete against a mode with Vsync and a mode capped at 60 FPS. These are different modes and I intend to make a TAS for those as well. But this is a legitimate way of playing the game. Sure it's effectively humanly unplayable, but so is every other TAS here. Is it the word "speedhack" that people take offense with? I really don't know. Kindly try to understand my point of view when responding, thank you.
darkshoxx
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Hi PLANET, thanks for the kind words.
Hmm, bit mixed opinions on this one.
yeah you're not alone with that, :) but I still don't quite know why?
At first I thought there's some C' f g c sorcery going on here, going straight to the Loom and somehow bypassing all of the game
oh man, that kinda makes me want to "hack in" all notes from the beginning and see if you can unmake the loom from the get-go. Probably not because I think Boppin has to see the drafts before he can play them. Otherwise we could skip the forest at the start.................?
Also, your "Hopefully submission part 1 of 3" made me smile with a little sadness inside
Oh no that was not intentional. I just wanted to demonstrate all three ways you can play loom out of the box in Scummvm as a TAS. I am very aware of the planned trilogy, and it fills me with sadness too when I think about it. Have you seen the fan-made version of the forge? it's really good, Moriarty approved of it in his keynote speech at GDC.
I would love to see the VGA version instead
Bit unsure about that one. First time playing it in VGA after playing EGA for so long felt amazing, but my pure nostalgia lies with the EGA version, the dithering that was basically invented for this game and the more crude midi soundtrack. Maybe after I'm done with EGA?
and a slower rendition of this TAS rather than this, well, madness ; )
I was rather surprised by the contrast in feedback for this one compared to the Phantasmagoria one. Watch both next to each other and what you'll learn about each game is almost net zero due to the chaos, essentially a spoiler-free TAS.
but still is too fast : p
Is going fast not the point of speedruns? How can a TAS be too fast? Well I can guarantee the other two versions will be more digestible. But I probably wouldn't have started the TAS of Loom if I hadn't managed to get this fast version working, because I was looking for an experience similar to Phantas.
darkshoxx
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So your example and reasoning is a bit more of an Apples to Oranges comparison.
they're still both fruit. And neither runs are without setup. "With one slight difference." In the fruit basket it goes. See my reasoning above as to why I had to make the assumptions that I did. We can continue to argue whose runs violate which rules, but I'd appreciate if we move towards getting the run into a shape that makes everyone happy. Again I had struggled to find the rules, and an early response on discord could've avoided this as well.
The difference as well is more in line with what you did won't cross sync. My bottom layout of ScummVM's settings is actually from a clean install and that's how it basically arrived for me. The other part about a fresh install of Linux/Ubuntu really doesn't matter. We've been publishing Linux TASes for a few years now, the thing that matters most is going to be the System Time and matching versions.
That's fine. Let's focus on what to change.
You would have to do (within libTAS) Settings > Runtime disable "Prevent writing to disk" (then reenable). Modify the settings, then should be golden.
Great I'll try that.
The comments that were related to Vsync off and JPC-RR is mashed here with only one bit highlighted.
Sorry, didn't mean to misconstrue anything. I'll avoid talking about JPC-RR altogether.
It doesn't though. "Fast Machines" would only get this performance if the CPU was overclocked.
Apologies, this is due to knowledge gap in my understanding of the tech. The choice of 1000 was indeed arbitrary, I wouldn't know if that can only be achieved through overclocking. I didn't overclock my current or previous machine. But I very much can run Loom essentially uncapped. I just went for "a good order of magnitude above 60" The way it plays on my machines with vsync off is (to be best of my understanding, but I've not measured) the same as in the video I've provided.
If this used JPC-rr then you're essentially using a validateable and provable system that is essentially using an actual powerful DOS system.
Again, I see no point in switching entire systems mid submission.
Disabling ScummVM's Vsync leads to future issues where it can lead to other systems that it supports with a major advantage that it should not have.
Could you please elaborate what you mean by that? I do not understand that at all. This is a very specific setting to highlight a mode of gameplay that is available out of the box. And it is replicable, so how does anyone have an advantage over another? As mentioned in the submission, I intended to do 3 runs, one on regular (SRC leaderboard compliant), one with capped framerate and speedhack (not leaderboard compliant), and this one (obviously not leaderboard compliant), uncapped speedhack. I obviously started with this one, because speed go zoom. These three "categories" are obviously not in direct competition with each other.
darkshoxx
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Hi feos, thanks for the quick response
Now obviously Discord is mentioned there, but only as a secondary resource, due to its live chat nature, which makes it impossible to use as a general future reference, so forum is preferred (and more visible to judges).
Yeah that makes sense. I reckoned it would be fine to just have a submission as a point of conversation. I'll know for next time.
We don't count prior configuration as having played the game, because sometimes it's impossible to TAS it without initial tweaks (and because you haven't played the game).
For my submission for Phantasmagoria I was given to understand that initial tweaks are not an option, and I had to do a lot of workaround to avoid a specific crash because of that. To be honest I did not check the running ScummVM titles specifically this time around mainly because I could not find the page. I wasn't sure where those rules were set, googled a bit and gave up, because I didn't even know what I was looking for. That's when I made the post in discord. I'm very open to suggestions on how to fix this in the best way possible. Is there a way to start this with a preset of initial tweaks that help? For example, will scummVM remember if you start it with Vsync disabled in the global options, then close and run the game with the command line setting of the game?
darkshoxx
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Hi Spikestuff, thank you for your detailed response.
I can't tell if you followed the guide to running ScummVM titles or not.
I specifically asked in the discord if what I'm doing follows the Rules or not, but I sadly didn't get a single response after several days and decided to go ahead https://imgur.com/a/MWff3CZ
Part of the reason I bring this up is because you have ScummVM's menus visible for a frame of that provided encode and not the splash.
Yes, precisely, because to the best of my knowledge that's the only way to disable vsync on a clean install.
ScummVM itself can have different layouts and I know that as my Linux distro does not have your layout, my options are at the bottom, not the side.
Well, it's a clean install of the scummvm version I specified on a clean install of ubuntu. Have I not provided all detail for reproduction with that? It was sufficient for my submission of Phantasmagoria https://tasvideos.org/8249S NINJA EDIT: I understand that the situation is different, as a submission that starts on the splash screen is independent of the layout of scummvm. Apologies.
And as a bit of a nitpick. You should've done Global Options > Graphics > V-sync Off.
Fair, didn't think it would make a big difference
For future reference in regards to the splash: Game executable: /usr/games/scummvm Command-line options: loom-ega
that's precisely what I CANNOT do, because it doesn't turn off vsync. Unless I'm misunderstanding. If there's a way to disable Vsync on startup without messing with configs?
Instead it requests the Judge/Publisher to make sure to adjust their keybindings to add two key strokes.
To me that is "messing with ScummVM" to the same degree as I do, in both cases the original configuration is changed. The reason I upped the framerate is because you can actually play the game like this, that's the whole point. This is what it looks like when you play the game on a fast machine with vsync off. I feel like a lot of this could've been avoided if I had gotten feedback to the discord post mentioned above. I'm happy to apply changes that makes it consistent with the rules. The rules were unclear. Kindly advise.
Personally I believe you should've actually messed with JPC-rr instead.
I had not heard of this. I'm quite comfortable with ScummVM at this point, I'd rather not change to a different setup if this one works. Happy to look into it for another project.
darkshoxx
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I just realized, that I could've added the menuing in the final chapter, then chapters 1-6 would not have been affected. Lesson learned. :(
darkshoxx
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So, when switching to the old fullscreen settings, the original bug that crashes libTAS appears again. So instead I added a couple of menuing frames at the beginning to ensure half-size video. User movie #638441411381066630 This causes everything to shift, and previous inputs to fall on lag frames, so more had to be inserted. That's why the run is 55 frames longer than before.
darkshoxx
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I've updated the submission details, and removed the section about the outro.
darkshoxx
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Summary of what I wrote in Discord: If your file has last input on frame 6510 then that's maybe submission User movie #638408549549515874 instead of the newer one which is User movie #638416364709689186 . It has all the frames of the ending cutscene included, which apparently wasn't supposed to happen? In that case please truncate, yes. The final input is on 6522. Or am I misunderstanding something?
darkshoxx
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I still need tu update the technical details of the submission, as some things have changed
darkshoxx
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Here we are: User movie #638416364709689186 Let me know if this works, this has a good chance of working!
darkshoxx
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Ah I was afraid it might not ping. Thanks for the reply. This is where that movie is supposed to end, thanks for testing. Will make a finished run today!
darkshoxx
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@ikuyo @Randomno Sorry for the ping, I am unsure what the right ettiquette is here. I solved the issues I had and made a preliminary version. I'm hesitant to optimize it and include the final sequence give the desynchs we have seen, my thought was that someone would try it with the file I have produced and tell me if it works or not. Is this the right way to do, or would you rather have me make a "final" version now?
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User movie #638408549549515874 Here we go, please try this file (EDIT: Disclaimer, still a testfile that runs to the beginning of the final showdown, not a finalized file. Just looking for desyncs and other errors)
darkshoxx
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alexheights1 wrote:
The run is literally stunning! Good luck solving the techical issues!
Thank you so much! HUGE props to feos for helping me troubleshoot the savegame folder issue. I will replace the file with one with correct positions
darkshoxx
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okay update. I've gotten everything to work again by reinstalling ScummVM, LibTAS and XLaunch, and patching Phantasmagoria from 1.0 to 1.1 (see here: http://sierrahelp.com/Patches-Updates/Patches-Updates-Games/PhantasmagoriaSeriesUpdates.html ) Current configuration: libTAS V 1.4.5 Phantasmagoria 1 patch 1.1 Windows 11 WSL Linux Ubuntu 22.04 ScummVM 2.8.0 using XLaunch. Should run until beginning of final showdown. Current problems:
  • I had to insert 300-ish frames at the beginning because I am unable to determine when one or both intros play. It seems arbitrary or cache-related.
  • I had to switch the "new game" input back to the position with a preexisting savegame beacuse no matter what I do I cannot delete the last game file. Neither in-game nor by deleting the contents of ~/.local/share/scummvm/saves . That directory is EMPTY on my end, and is the path for both the game-specific and the global scummvm save files.
  • I had to insert 2 frames mid-game where it desynched.
  • On my end it is still half-screen by default, and I don't know how to change that default.
Here's the file for testing User movie #638408481905752348 Any and all feedback on either the file or the mentioned problems is greatly appreciated
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ikuyo wrote:
Have you been able to make any progress regarding the sync issues?
Hi, I'm very sorry. No, not yet. There was an issue where couldn't get LibTAS to work at all on my end anymore. Was hoping this would be fixed when I got a new machine, but then there were problems with getting another machine. I promise this project is still on my mind, the problems were resolved last week. Will try to get another machine soon, until then I'll give it another go on this machine. I hope to respond with results in the next two weeks. Again, apologies.
darkshoxx
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This is very frustrating. I gave it another shot today, but I can't seem to even record any inputs. The cursor doesn't show up on screen no matter what I do, and running ScummVM without LibTAS completely glitches out. This will take some time to troubleshoot, and will definitely be delayed. Sorry about that.
darkshoxx
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@ikuyo when I try to edit the submission the only options I have are "judging underway" and "cancelled", so I'm not sure how to set it to "delay". Could yyou please mark it for me or tell me how to do it? @Randomno I'll try fixing it today.
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@ikuyo I'm not sure what the protocol is here, but I'm in no rush. @Randomno In that case, can you try inserting the inputs for setting it to half-screen at the beginning of the run? Like When you first gain control after skipping, before opening the drawer to get the matches? I'm currently having a hard time getting it to run on my end again, I'm sorry.
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https://imgur.com/a/2itSlum The large P on the bottom opens this menu, the setting is in the lower left corner, just push the button there.