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zk547 wrote:
Though I imagine a 100% multiplayer TAS would use 4 players even if it did require speed/entertainment tradeoffs.
Personally, unlike most other games with 4 players, I feel like using all 4 players in this game is sort of unnecessary and might even take away from the entertainment. The reason being is that with 4 players, there would be a lot of places (namely, the secret areas with coins) where 2 additional players wouldn't speed anything up because the second player can probably do everything on his own in the small time between the first player entering the pipe and the screen transitioning (as seen in the youtube video).
It is entirely possible to have all of them turn into a bubble in order to remove the delay between the first person entering an area. As shown in the video, turning into a bubble stops the waiting time. So if they turn into a bubble as soon as all the star coins are collected in an area, it would not really take away from the overall time. Though I agree that there may not be any significant advantages to having 4 over 2 in many of the areas, there could be other areas in a level where one might need the extra boost in jumping height or a wider area to jump across, where having one or two more bubbles to bounce off of may save time.
When I originally thought of the idea of using all 4 players in a TAS of this game, I envisioned using the bubbles in order to help gain access to places, especially since, upon dying, the players' bubbles come in from the right. That way, I was thinking there may also be places where you can just keep jumping from bubble to bubble at a certain intervals, at the cost of quite a few player deaths in some spots. This was somewhat inspired by how a few friends and I completed the final area of the game, where someone was always alive to bounce off one of the bubbles, which removed the need for the moving platforms.
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I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but sometimes you can bypass the trigger of the autoscrolling at times. It allows you to move about freely at your speed as if it wasn't an autoscroller.
Haven't looked into this in depth, since I did this on my actual game a few times instead of the emulator, so I'll try to replicate it on Desmume and post the vid.
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Well, optimized or not, I really enjoyed the run.
This is a quality run, especially considering this is your first submission. The pace of the gameplay was very quick with a ton of things going on on the screen. The egg juggling was a nice touch, and the way some of the boss fights ended were pretty funny.
Yes vote from me.
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Well, in Multiplayer, you don't necessarily have to die to enter a bubble. Just press A and the player would be encased in the bubble, with their power and all. Shaking the Wii-mote moves the bubble closer to an active player while not shaking lets them float about (maybe this can be manipulated for best results).
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I've mulled over the thought of starting this myself. Its been a while since I last played this game, and it was madness with 3 other friends.
However, a few things I have observed that time has allowed me to think a 4-player run through may actually be actually fastest.
When the first person touches the flag, a certain amount of time goes by before the flag goes down and the level completes. However, if those who did not touch the flag yet die or transfer into the bubble, the level ends too. And trasferring into the bubble when the level ends does not make you lose your power, if I remember correctly.
Also, the bubbles that form make great emergency platforms to jump extra heights and/or lengths. I remember a time all of us playing manage to stay above a platform-less lava pit by jumping off each other's bubbles.
Two thing I haven't checked out yet, though: map-movement and level start. I'm not sure if 4-player movement is faster, slower, or just as fast as 1-player map movement. And I'm not sure if P1 in a 4-person run starts the level closer to the goal than in a 1-person run.
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Yes vote.
Seriously, this game has been improved upon a bunch of times and I eventually assume that I've seen it all and then a new run comes an surprises me.
Great job.
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Here is an encode for the updated NSMB run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLciyqAmvD8
I'm unable to change the submission text, so if anyone else can update it, I'd appreciate it.
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Finally finished viewing it. Took longer than I thought.
Overall, I enjoyed the run. Although I agree that there is quite a bit of dialog, I think the run itself is of great quality and it makes up for it. Much of the run involves taking advantage of the game mechanics and manipulating luck as opposed to games where you glitch and explode through a game (which I also enjoy). Its a nice change of pace for a TAS.
So, its a yes vote for me.
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Oh dear. It seems all Mario games are the same as well.
Anyways, this is a very awesome run. A yes vote from me.
Maybe Super Mario World would be added also in the future even though its an SNES
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Just wondering, has Dolphin been able to read from more than 1 input? Is it possible to have 4 separate inputs at once?
I've followed the development of Dolphin a fair amount, but I don't remember seeing something related to this question. It could be useful for those co-op speedruns, now that it seems like the tools to TAS Gamecube/Wii games are there.
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Extremely entertaining. I don't know if this would get a star or not, but I won't be surprised if it did.
The movie is 40 minutes, but I enjoyed every minute.
Yes vote from me.
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adelikat wrote:
Nice WIP! You managed to use the star in 1-1 to save time, awesome. And super corner boosting in 1-2, for some reason I never thought of using that in 1-2, dur :S
The WIP desyncs for me after 1-2. Are you sure you are using Desmume 9.6? I hope you aren't using some interim/svn build. It needs to be able to sync on an official release.
I tried to improve the pipe in 1-2, but I couldn't . I couldn't figure out why you have a delay, it makes no sense. I thought maybe it was weird x subpixel positioning so I varied subpixels, 1 subpixel at a time, and no effect. I thought maybe it was y positioning, and jumped down there with small variations in y position, and nothing. I think you guys are just a victim of TAS Rule #34 All Improvements will have worse uncontrollable luck than their predecessor.
Also, you were 30 frames ahead upon entering 1-1, what is up with that? Did I screw up walking to 1-1?
It syncs alright for me, but I noticed that the WIP has 1 more frame of lag than the published run.
By the way, I checked the dsm and apparently, you were already 17 frames behind after clicking the "Mario Game". Guess not everything was done at first possible frame :P.
Edit:
Y0SH1 wrote:
New Super Mario Bros. "any%" TAS WIP
I'm working with mindnomad to create an improved "any%" TAS. This WIP goes up to the start of World 5.
We are currently 116 frames ahead of adelikat. However, we've still got a few problems: the pipe in World 1-2, and the pipe in World 1-Tower. If we could figure out what causes the delay before entering pipes, then we would be able to save about 6 frames more. From our experience, the delay seems to be reduced the more you hold left or right (without interruption).
If it's true that you need to hold left or right for a certain amount of time, then the pipe in 1-2 probably can't be improved because of how we need to stay in the Blue Shell whenever we can make a super corner boost (pressing left or right while in the Blue Shell will reduce your speed every frame if it's above 44). The gain from the super corner boosts really outweighs the delay. ;)
If you can find any improvements besides these, please tell us - we'd love to know!
I haven't looked at how to save time in 1-2 or 1-T in depth, but I agree that the secret pipe in 1-T can be improved by breaking the bottom two bricks rather than the top two so you can technically have a running start towards the pipe.
I'm looking into those two levels though as we speak. I'll post what I find.
Edit2: After much fooling around in the area after the teeter-totter in 1-2, I was able to save 2 frames after the teeter-totter thing (1 frame from avoiding the walking animation shortly before entering the pipe and 1 frame from entering the pipe almost immediately) I theorize that this delay problem has to do with the jumping animation and where you collide with the pipe. Certain frames in the first, second, and third jump cause much delay and some hardly cause any.
Also, it seems like there is a small area of the pipe that, if you can collide into it, you enter the pipe the very frame after both x-speed and y-speed hits 0, even if you hold the dash button. It's a tiny area above the ground. For some reason, the x speed, upon colliding, goes from 48 to 16 then 0; the y speed stays at -64 until x hits zero, at which the speed becomes -23 then 0 at the next frame.
I've had average luck trying to recreate it (most of the time merely saving 1 frame instead of two).
It seems like there are some spots on the teeter-totter thing where you can get instant 48-50 speed instead of 25-30 speed, but I haven't been able to fully take advantage of it.
By the way, did you try wall-jumping off the red block that had the blue shell in it? I'm just wondering because you were able to do so with the star in 1-1.
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Everything was awesome in this video.
Anyone who votes no for this does not know what awesome is.
Yes vote from me.
This deserves to be a frontrunner for TAS of the year or something.
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Y0SH1 wrote:
I have a question, preferably toward adelikat or terrotim.
When I try to enter the pipe to the secret exit in World 1-2, I'm not allowed to do so until a certain amount of time upon landing has passed. All the runs that have been published enter the pipe immediately. How do you avoid this delay?
Its been a while since I TAS'ed this game, but I believe you can enter a pipe faster if you are still moving horizontally as you go through the pipe (ie running into the pipe). If you are still in the air as you hit the pipe, your horizontal movement hits 0 until you land. And since horizontal movement is 0 when you landed, you get Mario/Luigi landing animation.
Of course this is just a theory.
mindnomad wrote:
This game is ultra hard to predict (at least for me...). And apparently, red ? block manipulation has something to do with firmware settings...
This is new to me. I was not aware of how firmware settings can affect red block movement.
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There is more than one way to use an emulator. Some people use it for the sake of nostalgia; they enjoy the game for what it is. Others like to use it to make videos of superplays/speedruns. I happen to enjoy playing the game as it is and making videos.
Also, the approach to both are different. Sometimes I just want to test my own skills, so I play it at normal speeds, etc. Because human reflexes and the like are less of a factor in TAS, making TAS is like being given a problem/puzzle where you can take your time to make unorthodox approaches to solving said problem/puzzle (ie "how can I get past this obstacle as quickly as possible").
Just because someone doesn't know about TAS does not make them noobs. I've had friends who have played on emulators for much longer than I have, yet I was the one who first introduced TAS techniques to them.
Just let them enjoy using the emulator the way they want to enjoy it.
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mindnomad wrote:
Paused wrote:
mindnomad wrote:
We could actually use some help on the 100% run...
What kind of help?
What I mean is, it's really only LightBlueYoshi and I doing this (as far as I know)...
It would be awesome if other people got involved in doing individual level runs...
Sorry if I sound pushy :SSSS
I'd like to help with individual levels. However, lately, I haven't had the time to attempt any type of TAS. But I have been keeping up with those videos you and LightBlueYoshi have been posting up.
Good luck on the any% run, by the way.
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Hmmm...for one, I could abuse programming errors in order to wall jump up buildings. I could corrupt save states so that when I switch items in my backpack, I warp someplace else. I'll draw pictures on every math test and still get 100% correct. Casinos would be bankrupt very quickly. All crime would be prevented because, if the limits are pushed and luck manipulation is used, all people would become the type that wouldn't commit crimes.
Of course, I'll redo every embarrassing mistake I made as well.
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Antoids wrote:
Certain ROM images have, as an anti-piracy measure, a feature that prevents Pokémon from gaining EXP.
I hope there is a run of such a version in the future :U
I heard Desmume actually has more success running this than the flashcarts when it came to this AP. I, for one, think this was a very clever thing they did. Of course, you could technically still play with this, by just capturing progressively stronger Pokemon and buying lots of Rare Candy and Vitamins. And of course luck.
I also heard that there is a totally new RNG system for Black and White. EV and IV are structured differently as well. Old Pokemon also receive brand new abilities in Dream World. The possibilities of teams are much greater than in the 4th Gen. for sure.
I'm not sure if a run would happen in the near future, but I'll definitely look forward to it.
