I shouldn't have said Tristan should take the same time as Lord's Ianuki/Sonic Strike. So few ally attacks seen in a TAS or speedrun, easy enough to frame count them all. I'm more interested in glitches and I made huge progress on 2x Tarot in a row glitch with SNES9Xv1.60.
You know what all 3 of those videos have in common? Each attack was the last attack of the 1st round of combat. Can be enemy or ally attack. Hit A whenever you want during that last attack to bring up the Tarot menu for the 1st card. Use whatever card you want - not locked to Magician! Between that card animating and the 1st attack of the next round, there's a 3 frame window where you hit A to bring the Tarot menu back up to use the 2nd card in a row. It's a 2 card limit, no infinite chaining. Turbo controller set to 20 Hz for 1 tap for every 3 frames, I'm always able to do it. You can hit A as much as you want before or after the window. IRL play, I can rapid fire 10-12 times per second (Hz), giving me a 1 in 3 chance.
Works versus boss units and normal units but I don't see a use outside of boss fights.
Can also trigger at the end of the 2nd round of combat if there's a character who can attack 3 times, such Tristan or Debonair in the front row. Not that a TAS would have 2 full rounds. I was able to trigger the glitch in one battle at end of 2nd round using Emperor where no one had 3 attacks but not the other battles I tried. Can use Fool or kill an enemy to alter who makes the last attack after the battle has started, glitch still works.
I had the patience to find the exact frame timing once. Was with Emperor before Norn the Witch made the last attack of the round. In this case, I had to hit A with 43, 42 or 41 frames before STUN appeared in the blue box. Tarot menu took 18, 17 and 16 frames to pop up, respectively. If 43 frames before STUN is frame 0 then the time delays are (0+18), (1+17), (2+16) for a consistent 18 frames. Nice. The window is after the Emperor animation completely finishes. Window seems just before the next attack starts for every card.
In the existing TAS on the original Japanese version, there's only one battle the whole game where Gryphon attacks, making double Tarot pretty useless. On any other release where you can't get full 100 EXP from a Tarot kill, double Tarot has potential to finish some battles earlier.
We have video proof on real PS2. I didn't try PS1 emulator but I did try Saturn emulator and couldn't pull the glitch off. I can try on real console but other things I want to do.
Thank you Spikestuff for clearing up my concerns so quickly and decisively! I like the idea then that separate speedrunning efforts could happen on different platforms.
I don't see any frame data. I wanted to elaborate on 2 attacks being faster than a Tarot card. After the initial 7 free cards, of which the first 6 aren't really free since some have longer text boxes than others, we're Jokering the rest. Drawing a card at liberation is much too slow and inefficient. Let's ignore the time to liberate the shop to buy Jokers and the time to pull a buried Notos for max sale price of 63950. Overhead cost is at least 40 frames to get into the item menu and start using a Joker. Each Joker item that's used takes just under 180 frames to draw and keep a card and cycle back to the item menu.
Let's also ignore the few frames needed to pull up the menu with Tarot-Tactics-Retreat-Animation. From there, using the first card takes 5 frames and the second or bottom card takes 7 frames. 3 frames to scroll to the next card but can hit A on frame 2 of that window to save 1 frame. Then add these total animation times I counted on SNES9X:
Ignoring the overhead cost and the small menuing delay, fastest card Judgment is 381 + 180 = 561 frames, or 9.35 seconds. Fool is best avoided in a TAS once Tristan is recruited given its ~12 second total time. I think most people know this but Fool maximizes the damage of the above cards except Tower since they have 25% higher base attack power for each fewer living enemy in the unit.
Attacks, I was mostly interested in the single stage campaigns, but I went with the time of an attack before another ally's attack started. Enemy attack next was an additional delay of about 30 frames. The Evildead and Opinion Leader times are from Sega Saturn real disc + console recorded at 60 fps. Rest are SNES9X. Times are for attacks dealing damage. A missed attack is perceptibly faster but AoE spells need to miss for every character to be faster.
My presumption is the lookup for Ninja/Wizard attack takes 2 frames. Ianuki should be the same for Tristan. Debonair's attack with no recoil would be faster but less powerful. Abeleo's Acid Cloud takes the same 180 frames but there's the extra delay before his attack starts. Thunder Lord has 40 frames of hand waving before Thunder appears. I suppose Valkyrie/Muse hand waving only takes 20 frames.
Sorry I didn't split that up into two posts. Wall of text is no fun.
There's two points that should be discussed. First is using two Tarot cards in a row without anyone attacking. Perhaps there is no upper limit. I give Dragondarch the credit for either discovering or the first to have video proof. He was well-aware of the possibility in 2017 and says it's a frame perfect trick. Krayzar was first with PSX this year and used a PS2. I'm not sure if two in a row is possible on Saturn. Video proof on real hardware:
I haven't been able to duplicate two cards in a row on emulator on any console but I didn't try Magician first. There's quite a few bugs that apply to either the first or last of things in a list. If so, Magician first is not particularly useful in a TAS. Only Gilbert, Castor and Luvalon are weak to fire and a fast INT card (and Tower) is slower than 2 attacks. I was hoping for a Diablo fight going 3x Judgment then 1 attack to finish off.
Second is the original Japanese release on Super Famicom is substantially different from all others, including the Nintendo Power release. In the original release that vibration uses for the TAS, EXP gain is 2 levels higher. As in, 1 level difference in Nintendo Power, English SNES, English and Japanese PSX and Saturn gives EXP in the original SFC equal to a 3 level difference! Guaranteed level up with a 4 level difference there versus a 6 level difference in all others. Why level 1 Opinion Leader will get a level up versus level 5 Usar even after using Lans in the Warren fight.
The original release also doesn't nerf Tarot card EXP for the Opinion Leader. Up to 100 EXP per kill for a full level up is possible. Why you see so many Tarot boss kills in the TAS. In all other releases, the EXP gain is capped to 50 EXP per kill. Can gain EXP from both the card kill and regular attack kills in the same battle to reach 100 EXP.
Now the boosted EXP isn't as relevant as you might think since almost every boss from Debonair on is 6+ levels higher anyway. Net effect is about 2 levels extra on the Opinion Leader and 1 on Gryphon. With faster dialogue due to more compact Japanese text, original SFC looks like the move. I dunno if using the Japanese release over English makes a TAS more difficult to be accepted here. Definitely a strong preference for English releases.
I joined to post in this thread. About time I do. I was looking for Ogre Battle videos on Niconico with the Japanese name オウガバトル and found a complete TAS from 2010 (!) by vibration (しんどう):https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11332780
Also posted on YouTube but with bad editing.
It's not an any% or 100% but rather the minimum needed to trigger the best ending, World. Recruit Tristan and Rauny, get Brunhild, Grail and Mysitc Armband and the 12 Zodiac Stones. Interestingly goes Ice Cloud who finishes Werewolf Sirius with Banish in the front row. Tarot card damage, besides Sun, scales off Opinion Leader's STR or INT. Weapon boosting doesn't count. Phantom Lord has highest INT, Ianuki/Samurai Master has highest STR, Ice Cloud is balanced with 2nd highest STR and INT and Thunder is the worst to use. Has highest AGI and HP growth.
Ice Cloud is also nice for 65 starting ALI when Posha needs 55+ at liberation and Sky Knights need 70+ to join. vibration pulls Hermit for the INT gain and +7 ALI doesn't hurt. Full Warren bonus card stat effects are here with note that PSX and Saturn have extra RNG. Can forgive Deneb before Diaspola to get +5 ALI (and -5 Reputation). Ianuki starts at 50 ALI, Thunder and Phantom Lord at 45 ALI and we know Phantom can't farm undead. TAS also has Ianuki kill Kapella.
I like how the Gryphon only gets 1 attack the entire game. Such a slow attack. No Tarot card is ever drawn at liberation since Joker pulls are faster. Can see on Sharom Border the second stage the 'wait and do nothing' strategy. By waiting for enemy units to deploy and pick their destination, you clear the stage faster! Also seen on vibration's Dragon's Haven run that Krayzar found as well and improved the battle strategy. No second unit for battling, Aisha is skipped, no Saradin or Princess, mainly Tristan + Debonair backrow spam.
What's also interesting is being able to copy paste the video comments into machine translator. vibration had a hard time dodging neutral encounters which I confirmed are boosted by unit leader's LUK. Says Trade Ticket/Anywhere Jack usage takes too much time so avoids.
vibration manipulates a Relic Sword for max +24 STR (but -16 INT) and 2x Notos since Notos has the highest sale price (63950 goth) of any buried treasure. One comment during the credits:
ノトスは乱数の範囲が「2A～2C」のときにのみ入手できます。
Notos are available only when the random number range is "2A-2C". 42, 43, 44
Notos odds are 3/256 or about 1 in 85. There are ~92 treasure possibilities in the pool with 256 (00-FF) numbers. So ~72 treasures have 3 numbers to be pulled and ~20 have 2. Says Magician is pulled with Joker with 00 to 0B, i.e. 12/256 that is slightly better than 1 in 22.
Responding to earlier strategy talk:
Bosses dodge Death, Fortune, Moon, Hierophant, Lovers and Sun Tarot, Pumpkin 50% HP attack, Vampyre Charm and Petrify. Their guards can be hit by Death, Hierophant, Lovers, Sun and all attacks. Gemini and Diablo dodge Fool and both Gemini have boss immunity. Exception: Fogel can be Charmed with Vampyre but good luck attacking before him. All bosses can, in fact, be stunned by Witch/Cerberus if caster INT is no more than ~50 points below the boss' since that's the 0% floor to hit. I stunned all 3 parts of Diablo as a test.
Yes, Gale is a physical attack which is why World can't stop it. Lich is possible, Debonair can recruit Mages and Saradin is a Mage. But Sorcerer achieves max dps in the front with Princess + Tristan/Debonair + Yushis in the back. Dragondarch does this in 100%. Lich has the best elemental resistance in the game but you'll lose too much time and take too much damage waiting for that third attack. Runs without an Undead Staff devolve him to Wizard to get 2 attacks. All Wizard-line classes get the same INT growth and all magic spells have the same base power, so no damage is lost.
Yes, you can get a level 8 Wyrm in Warren's Castle by manipulating a Chime from a neutral encounter kill. Sharom Border level 3 Hawk Man in ocean is convenient. Existing TAS only has the Gryphon attack once like I said so doesn't seem worthwhile.
Norn needs at least 55 Reputation if female Opinion Leader and 60 if male and can't have completed Shangrila where Debonair is locked up. Funny how no other character has a separate male/female requirement.
I disagree that Dragondarch isn't aggressive enough with Tarot. Most attacks such as Wizard magic are 180 frames and slow Ianuki is 403 frames. Fool is 533 frames reduced by preventing enemy attacks, INT cards are ~390 frames, STR Chariot is 787 frames and Hermit and Devil are even slower. Tarot also take time to pull with Joker or liberation + time to select in-battle. Given there are 22 Tarot cards, you don't pull enough Fools to go around in a non-TAS. Tarot damage besides Sun and Tower is nerfed the more enemies there are on the field. We're talking 5-20 points of damage to the boss in a team of 5. Tower beats Chariot when 4 or 5 are on the field but misses High and Low Sky. Diablo's Quake also misses High/Low Sky.
There is no need to Sunshine for every battle. Max stat reduction with 37 ALI Rashidi at noon is -12 points to STR, INT and AGI. Quite significant but weaker bosses aren't getting killed in 1 fewer attack with stat reduction that also affects your unit and takes 4000 goth and time to use. A few bosses are holy such as Hikash at 72 with 75 ALI Muses. Tarot card damage (besides Sun) varies with Opinion Leader's ALI by the same mechanic. If you're 0 ALI pure evil post-Galf, you might want to take some fights at midnight. At 50 ALI, max attack and Tarot damage are at 6am and 6pm, while max stat reduction is at midnight and noon.
I agree Musplem rush for Dream Crown (+Undead Ring) is viable in a non-TAS. I think Sheex's and 53done's Ianuki 100% runs go 2nd unit Princess since INT cards are already going to be weak with Ianuki at the endgame and the run no longer lives at the mercy of Joker RNG. TAS can manipulate Undead Staff, Ring and Dream Crown from killing neutral encounters, such as Ghost/Skeleton in Pogrom Forest or Hawk Man I mentioned in Sharom Border. Current theory from fireseal63, who discovered several things I already mentioned, is each non-boss unit kill has a 1/10 chance of dropping an item. This is irrespective of LUK. I found there are 32 possible item drops. Thus 1 in 320 for a desired consumable.