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Baxter wrote:
Michael Fried wrote:
You gain much more time by being able to take the big shortcut to level 6, so it's worth it.
You might indeed be able to complete the FDS version a little faster due to the glitch... but it appears that it's only useful once or twice (I don't think it's faster getting the white sword)... and you can wonder whether it's worth to make a zelda FDS version TAS, when the difference is only 1 glitch, that can be used only once or twice.
Because it's a cool glitch, and people will go "wtf" when they see it.
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Obtaining the magical sword requires at least 12 heart containers, or is this different in the FDS version?
I'd assume it's the same as the NES version, but I forgot about that, good point. So I think it's obvious that the magical sword isn't worth it.
edit: I took a look at your proposed route in more detail. Regarding the white sword idea, I did a timing test for blowing the whistle, walking into the cave, grabbing the sword, and saving. It comes out to at least 21 seconds, which is several seconds more than the time lost killing Patra and Gannon with the wooden sword. Thus, it seems unlikely that the white sword could be worth getting. If this involves blowing the whistle more than once, it is definitely not worthwhile.
The way the glitch works is after beating level 5, first you throw the magical boomerang, and then you use the whistle. Then the boomerang knocks you out of the whirlwind, and you walk into the fake level 5, which takes you directly into the white sword cave. Is this what you timed? I haven't timed it myself, but I don't think this would take 21 seconds.
For the graveyard warp, on the USA version the whistle can only take you to dungeons that you've already beaten. Unless the glitch removes this restriction, is it even possible to warp to the graveyard (one screen left of level 6) at that point in the game?
You can warp to 1 screen left of any level you've already completed. That's normally where the whistle takes you without using the glitch, but then the screen scrolls to the right. With this glitch, you prevent the screen from scrolling to the right. So after completing level 1 you would warp to level 7 and do the glitch. Then you're still on the fake screen, and you can't walk up, so you have to just enter the fake level 1, which takes you to the screen left of level 7. I'm not sure how much delay that causes, it might be too much. If so, you could just reset to return to the origin, then do the glitch, and from there you can walk up a screen, taking you to the screen 1 up and left from level 7.
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Now that there's a new LoZ TAS, I think some of the improvements can be applied to the fds route, so here's the route I think would be fastest for the fds version:
I don't know why this table isn't showing up properly. Until I figure out how to fix it, you can view the table at http://wrvids.com/other%20files/lozfds-route.html .
<table>
<tr><th> FDS route:</th><th> Phil & Baxter's route:</th></tr>
<tr><td> Get wooden sword</td><td> Get wooden sword</td></tr>
<tr><td> Reset</td><td> Reset</td></tr>
<tr><td> Enter level 3</td><td> Enter level 3</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get level 3 triforce</td><td> Get level 3 triforce</td></tr>
<tr><td> Enter level 3</td><td> Enter level 3</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get raft</td><td> Get raft</td></tr>
<tr><td> Reset</td><td> Reset</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get candle</td><td> Get candle</td></tr>
<tr><td> Enter level 4</td><td> Enter level 4</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get ladder</td><td> Get ladder</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get level 4 triforce</td><td> Get level 4 triforce</td></tr>
<tr><td> Reset</td><td> Reset</td></tr>
<tr><td> Enter level 8</td><td> Enter level 8</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get level 8 triforce</td><td> Get level 8 triforce</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get meat</td><td> Get meat</td></tr>
<tr><td> Enter level 2</td><td> Enter level 2</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get magical boomerang</td><td> Get level 2 triforce</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get level 2 triforce</td><td> Enter level 5</td></tr>
<tr><td> Enter level 5</td><td> Get whistle</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get whistle</td><td> Get level 5 triforce</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get level 5 triforce</td><td> Whistle to level 3</td></tr>
<tr><td> Whistle to white sword cave</td><td> Enter level 7</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get white sword</td><td> Get level 7 triforce</td></tr>
<tr><td> Reset</td><td> Reset</td></tr>
<tr><td> Whistle to arrow shop</td><td> Enter level 1</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get arrow</td><td> Get bow</td></tr>
<tr><td> Enter level 7</td><td> Reset</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get level 7 triforce</td><td> Get level 1 triforce</td></tr>
<tr><td> Reset</td><td> Get arrow</td></tr>
<tr><td> Enter level 1</td><td> Enter level 6</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get bow</td><td> Get level 6 triforce</td></tr>
<tr><td> Reset</td><td> Whistle to level 1</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get level 1 triforce</td><td> Enter level 9</td></tr>
<tr><td> Whistle to graveyard</td><td> Get silver arrow</td></tr>
<tr><td> Enter level 6</td><td> Save Zelda</td></tr>
<tr><td> Get level 6 triforce</td><td></td></tr>
<tr><td> Whistle to level 1</td><td></td></tr>
<tr><td> Enter level 9</td><td></td></tr>
<tr><td> Get silver arrow</td><td></td></tr>
<tr><td> Save Zelda</td><td></td></tr>
</table>
If anyone isn't familiar with the glitch, you can whistle to any screen that's 1 screen left of a level, but the appearance of the screen doesn't change. Then when you walk to another screen or enter a cave you see the effect of the glitch.
I'm not sure if the white sword is worth it. I'd say there's a decent chance since you don't have to spend all that time walking to the cave. It's also possible to whistle to the magical sword cave after level 6, or you can just go there on the way to level 6 since it's not so far out of the way. If you skip the white sword, then the magical sword might be worth it since it's such a huge improvement over the wooden sword.
1 more possible route change: I still don't know whether or not you can whistle directly to level 9 after finishing the other levels. I think there was something about that in the manual, but I'm not sure if it was an FDS-only trick or if it was just a mistake. Has anyone tested this?
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Now we need to petition Phil & Baxter to TAS the fds version! I'd do it myself but there's no way I'd have the patience to manipulate luck like that. :(
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comicalflop wrote:
Michael Fried wrote:
I think this TAS would be more interesting to a casual viewer if the avi shows the input.
if you watched with FCEU .16 with input turned on, it showed a mini controller with sections fading red when the button was pressed. The problem is that the input was a constant flurry of different key presses at rapid speeds; the red was flickering in seemingly random places all over the controller at all times. Adding this feature of a controller showing input might not be the best, since while it would show what input is being done, it's still too much input happening too fast to see what is going on.
You don't need to have 4 controllers. Just put 1 controller in the middle that shows the input. I know you can view input in FCEU, but we're talking about casual viewers, and most casual viewers watch the avi, so the input should be shown in the avi.
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I have an idea, let's have a contest to see who can make the LEAST entertaining movie without losing any time! Don't we already have enough entertaining movies? I wanna see something original!
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comicalflop wrote:
well, I have it all encoded, but the filesize is a little big.
anyone know of any upload sites that can handle files bigger than 100 mb?
Here's a site with a 350 MB file size limit: http://www.f-forge.com/
I've never used this site before so I'm not sure if it's good or not. Let me know if it's a good site.
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Weatherton didn't fail. the TT WR for 3 laps is 1"44"44. Weatherton got 1"29"80.
He got a faster time than the real time record, but Fried is trying to point out that it can be still faster. it's a question of the precision..
No, that's not what I'm trying to point out. I'm not saying "it's cleaner than the WR but can still be faster". I'm saying "it's much worse than the TT WR." So yes, he did fail. I never said he failed to beat the TT WR, because he neither beat nor failed to beat it. You can't compare it directly because GP is different than TT, but you CAN compare the driving quality and say which one is cleaner.
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Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that the BB run is sloppier than the non-TAS runs. If he uses plenty of re-records and still can't reach the skill level of a non-TAS run, then to call this a publish-worthy TAS is an insult to the non-TAS MK64 players.
There's very little new or interesting stuff in this TAS. The DK strat is identical to the non-TAS strat, except 1 less shroom and just a tiny bit cleaner, even though there is a harder and faster strat that should've been used. The YV strat is something most people haven't seen, but still, everyone already knew that it's possible, just no one needed to do it in the past because you get shrooms in time trials. The BB strat, we've already seen a vid of how the shortcut works. This TAS just combined that shortcut with mediocre racing. The RR strat is the only original part of this TAS.
I think the optimization is more important and interesting than just the shortcuts themselves. An unoptimized MK64 TAS isn't publish-worthy.
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spockybiemmichab wrote:
Seeing those shortcuts is truly insane, but I most enjoyed BB where some "real driving skills" are shown. The other three tracks "only" have repetitive shortcuts.
Saying this, I'm really looking forward to the full run (which is not ruined at all by this).
PS: Yes
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Obvious no vote. Are the shortcuts the only thing you people care about? I thought optimization was an important part of TASing, and all 3 tracks except for YV are painfully unoptimized. YV isn't quite as bad as the others, but still obvious that it's unoptimized. The DK run can be improved by at least 2 seconds, maybe 3 or 4. The BB run is much sloppier than the non-TAS WR vids, so I won't even try to count how many seconds were lost, but it's a lot. RR, I'm not sure since I haven't tested that shortcut at all. If a certain idea I have works then a lot of time could be saved. If not then probably still a few seconds.
I think it's still worth doing the 100% run. There are still plenty surprises left. We're likely to find a good shortcut in KB. Changes will be made to the KD strat. The non-shortcut part of TT will look very cool, possibly the coolest non-shortcut racing we've seen so far. Changes will be made to the CM strat. WS will be very cool for obvious reasons. RRa, warp glitch 3/3, or possibly other shortcuts. BC, there's a GP shortcut.
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AngerFist wrote:
Michael Fried wrote:
There are a few good parts now, but plenty of obvious mistakes.
Its much better to list the "obvious" mistakes rather than saying it has plenty of flaws.
I already told Karterfreak some of the mistakes on AIM. I'm too busy now to type up a detailed list, but it doesn't take an MKSC expert to see that it's a bad TAS. Basically it's just lots of wide turns and too many adjustments on straights.
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xenos wrote:
Michael Fried wrote:
I noticed that you get slowed down each time you jump over the lake in Fossil Canyon. Check out this vid and see if you're able to copy his strat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sh9H5UWqek
Also I think your jump in Jungle Falls looks unoptimized, though I think I already told you that. Try to hit the opposite side of the lake closer to the wall on the right, and aim farther right during the jump, in order to go in a straighter line to the next zipper.
I tried the fossil canyon trick but to no avail. Banjo is too slow to make it. I find the best way to do the trick in the trophy race though. As for the jungle falls jump, I tried many ways to do it and that seemed to be the fastest.
I have redone Taj's hover challenge with the A tapping trick to save a few seconds. I also did the first four tracks of the water world and the boss. Run.
Also, here is a savestate at the start of boss 2-2. State.
I think a video would take too long to encode although I am no expert in this field.
Do you need to go back and forth so much when you snake in the hovercraft? Can't you alternate between left and right each frame (to go in a straighter line)?
Edit: At ~15.80 in Walrus Cove, you messed up and went very wide. Do a shorter left facing slide, and then do a right facing slide to get pushed to the left and avoid the wall.
Edit: Your Treasure Caves is very unoptomized. It's much worse than my non-TAS run. Check out my video: http://wrvids.com/Diddy%20Kong%20Racing/Michael%20Fried-autofire(mupen64)/tc-car-4063-Fried.mov
Edit: Btw does anyone have a save state with TT unlocked? I wanna play some DKR time trials (non-TAS), but I don't wanna have to spend so much time unlocking TT.
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AKA wrote:
Why did the movie end so abrubtly? I'm pretty sure with some real heavy handed attempts a MK master could match it, or make at least make it look identical, then again they might choose to jump over a wall and cut the lap in half, until that is found then this is a perfect lap.
It ends after I complete my goal, which was to finish a single lap as fast as possible. The game cartridge saves both fastlap times and 3lap times, so both are important. I already explained in my submission why I choose to do non-shortcut.
Many MK masters have tried very very hard to beat the world record. As I explained, the world record is already very strong. I can't see anyone going faster than ~23.04 on a real N64, and even that would be extremely hard.
The first reason quoted only makes me wish to see more than just one lap of one track.
Agreed 3 laps might get a bit repetitive, but I would like to see all tracks instead of just one.
There's a published Top Gear run of just 1 track, and Mario Kart 64 is much more popular than Top Gear.
Edit: About the purpose of the site? Well, Michael Fried's movie is clearly aimed as a TAKE THAT for Super Mario Kart 64 speedrunners. Those who compete on the fastest time. It is not aimed to please the general audience. This is clear from the abundant comparisons to world record times in the submission message, and in the talks preceding the submission.
I'm one of the top Mario Kart 64 players myself, so I'd have no reason to try to insult the skills of Mario Kart 64 players. It wasn't meant as a "take that". It was meant as a "here's something cool and surprising". If you don't like comparing TAS's to legit speedruns then that's your personal preference, but it shouldn't be a reason not to publish the TAS.
Accepting this would mean that every other single lap time trial movie should be accepted. Also a 3 lap time trial movie should be accepted. This also means each grand prix can be made into a single TAS... but wait, there is 50CC, 100CC, 150CC and reverse. Adding this all up means 48 possible TASes for this game (well... technically, you can use 8 different characters, which means 384 possible TASes for this game). This would be awesome, since half of the TASes on this site would be Mario Kart 64 TASes.
I already explained why this TAS in particular is interesting. Because people have spent more time competing for this world record than any other.
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I noticed that you get slowed down each time you jump over the lake in Fossil Canyon. Check out this vid and see if you're able to copy his strat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sh9H5UWqek
Also I think your jump in Jungle Falls looks unoptimized, though I think I already told you that. Try to hit the opposite side of the lake closer to the wall on the right, and aim farther right during the jump, in order to go in a straighter line to the next zipper.
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karterfreak wrote:
i got a little paranoid at the fact that frieds run was 21 frames faster than mine just because of level 2, so i improved it. All i have to say is this:
(from startup to first frame of victory pose in level 2)
Fried's total frame count: 1993
My total frame count: 1936
total difference: 57 frames in my favour
eat that fried XD
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I just TAS'd the first 2 levels of this game. I have no plans of finishing this TAS, but karterfreak kept begging me to compete against him, so I just did the first 2 levels to prove I'm a better TASer than him.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/4830/sbb.smv
I'm 90 frames faster by the end of level 2 (karterfreak finished level 2 but didn't upload it yet).
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TheFrigz wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong..but aren't Barrel Rolls only beneficial if you let go of A while you do them?
I don't know much about the plane. The only vehicle I'm good at is car. The barrel roll is clearly helping him. If you watch the speedometer then you'll clearly see his speed increasing by ~15 when he barrel rolls. Maybe that's not as much as it should be helping him. In other plane vids I've seen, barrel rolls bring your speed up to ~140. Maybe he's doing them wrong, or maybe bumper is just a bad character, I'm not sure.
Edit: I thought of an idea to save some time while doing barrel rolls. In addition to increasing your speed, it also moves you to the side, either left or right. It seems silly to alternate and zig-zag from left to right. I think it would cut down a bit on distance if you start out by tilting yourself to the side, and then throughout the rest of the straight do all the barrel rolls in the same direction (for example tilt yourself to the left, and then do many barrel rolls to the right).