Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Thank you for the informations and answers tigrou!
The video is awesome!
I was already about to somehow set up libTAS or atleast DOSBox to tinker with your room-viewer tool.
Don't know why but I have the urge to check out what does the game offers in a TASing POV (gotta do something with playing it as a kid and being terrified before every single room transitions).
Already bookmarked the anti-copyright booklet and gathered the resources to tinker with is there any save game / load game error to abuse and to check how optimized this TAS.
I never used libTAS nor had luck with setting up the TAS environment for DOS TASing so I don't want anyone to expect anything from me in the near future, but I will definitely write down whatever findings when I'm about to do it.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Thank you, that's exactly what I was interested in, it has great explanation with illustrations! And wow, there are many ways to clip.
Well the reason I asked for info is that I was wondering as someone who only played this game as a young kid and never tried speedrunning it there are many doors in this TAS seemingly clippable (purely judging by the video encode of your TAS) and I now assume you tried to bypass these doors but it was either impossible to clip through or it was slower to do it... Maybe you can't interact with the level/objects when you OOB?....
Let me list the 2 places what I were thinking of with YouTube video timestamps
(since I don't know what those E2R1 stuffs means apart from R stands for Room nor ever saw a full map of the game to know which rooms are interconnected):
1. 1:38 Leaving Oil Can room: Is it possible to clip through the door (actor)?
2. 2:12 Going to the library through walls: wouldn't the room you just exited be next to the Talisman room? I'm unsure because of all the camera position changes.
edit: Going from the Matchbox room instead of from the Stairway hall room
Thanks again for the informations and I hope I didn't wasted your time... speaking of it.... Some day would like to watch an encode of the room viewer tool running for this TAS.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Just watched the TAS and it was unexpectedly awesome! Very very good first TAS tigrou!
I have some questions for the TASer:
1. Did you develop your own tools to make this TAS? Personally I really love the effort and work you put in your (first) TAS, god damn impressive!
https://github.com/tigrouind/AITD-tools
2. Did you read NHG's notes about the route? He made a list of possible improvements to his run on this page:
edit: note, the page says "THESE NOTES DO NOT REFLECT ON THE FASTEST SS ROUTE ANY MORE: SEE THE RUN BELOW FOR REFERENCE AND BRING IT UP IN THE THREAD FOR IDEAS ON HOW TO IMPROVE ON IT"
These are in a very tentative state and require lots of work to sort out. When it says "read this, read that", it's in reference to the glitches/mechanics of the Guide.
Very clearly you can probably make the lag snap over the crack in E1 consistent if you use the door leading to R1 as the setup, since you end up standing at around the same X-coordinates afterwards each time and facing due W. It requires running kf1 or kf3 I think but... sound cues for the win!
read where it says "In SS runs as well, if you need to do something in the inventory you can combine it with getting a door to open if you time it well."
PRACTICAL TIPS / OPTIMIZATIONS: this whole section has a lot of stuff that could translate well into SS runs.
specifically SPACE snapping NHG didn't know about (using a lamp of course). This is probably quite tricky to learn to do consistently but definitely saves time if used extensively.
Also by holding SPACE with the lamp INHAND, you're reducing RNG calls to 1/frame most of the time, meaning the intervals between random noises being played increase, potentially saving some frames of lag, especially in E5/E6.
Faster rotations by starting the rotation first, then starting to run. If learned well, this technique is bound to save time somewhere. Probably when picking up the talisman.
The way NHG exits the library is sub-optimal. Instead of opening the doors to R2, he should have clipped against the S door instead. Definitely saves time and can be made fairly consistent.
There might be a time save if you use COLLISION CLIPPING in E3. So you run from E3R5 to R0 to R1, then clip (just regular sideways clip) into R13, and follow the rest of the instructions where it says "The locked study doors (and study desk)." I have surmised that you can't pick up the items that you're using for the collision clip into the desk without first coming back up the stairs but that might be incorrect, not sure. Also not sure if you can easily get back the same way in an SS run using the same technique or whether you have to come back through the cellar.
Where it says "There's a frame or several when you start opening a door inwards when you can still go to the inventory."
Read where it says "In Single-segment runs, when running into a door to open it inwards," although I don't know if some of this stuff is a repeat of each other. Lotsa notes about how to open doors fast!
AND MORE STUFF ABOUT DOORS: "Some ANIMs can be canceled by taking damage, for example opening a door in single-segment runs is slightly faster this way (knockback ANIM lasts 55 frames while a door takes around 120 to open or close). " But I don't know if there's any enemies or such close enough to make this feasible in AitD 1.
Something you have to remember in SS runs: "When you've gotten close to a corner and you want to continue clipping along a different collider, you may want to take a "baby step" just to get as close to it as possible first. Basically required for single-segment attempts at clipping into the secret room so the Vagabond doesn't have the time to intercept you." EDIT: When entering E6R0, instead of turning around and clipping against the door, it's faster (probably) to do a lag snap to get to R6 OOB that way, on the S side of where the rooms meet. Could be a little difficult to be consistent at though.
3. Would like to know a little bit more in-depth knowledge about going through walls. I never TASed/speedran the game, but there are a lot of walls in the game and I'm interested in what was the difficulty and how did you overcome them.
More specifically, I just want to understand what extent you can go through walls...
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
I was watching Arcus' RTA NES Mega Man 22:15 and never paid attention to the ending graphics of this game.
I guess this is only a programming error and emulators work as it should be, but I'm curious about this cause, as I've heard about this issue:
https://github.com/TASEmulators/fceux/issues/347:
Ninja gaiden 1 Issue #347
@kscorpionx
At the end of the game when the castle is collapsing, the parts of the castle stay in place and won´t fall
opened on Apr 11, 2021
In NES Mega Man:
For 1 frame, 1-2 sprites can pop on the same frame the sun comes up while changing the colors/palette
Screenshots from the YouTube encodes:
https://tasvideos.org/2601Mhttps://tasvideos.org/1103M
Mega Man NES speedrun in 22:15 by Arcus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzUqmG-dMz0
Note: This TAS has crazy graphics because of the pause + beam + moving through rooms to rooms trick
https://tasvideos.org/1686M
Now, unfortunately, 2601M the game ending glitch TAS console verification video doesn't shows the console ending sequence, wanted to see if the same "nothing" comes up there.
Would like to know if anyone tinkered with this and found any conclusion about what decides which sprites are shown.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
I couldn't find any improvement for DarkRiolu27's latest movie. Very optimized route and positionings/timings. Good job DarkRiolu27!
The only thing I will try today is the final wall clipping before falling water, will edit this post once I'm done testing it.
edit: found nothing, great as it is :)
For corrupt ending, change from S to L+R+S @ frame 2058
edit: based on true story
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Question, how does someone trigger the "ability roulette" where you can stop and pick stone?
I inhaled the first 3 enemies at once in room 3 and I still get fire. Is it only works if I inhale the one eyed guy (4th enemy in room 3) and someone else in combination?
I read gamefaqs but have no idea who is Rocky, definitely doesn't matches the one I see on Kirby Wikis.
edit: my current inhale order: Monkey, Fire guy and Two eyes guy (same order as appearing in the room)
edit2:
- same with different order: Monkey, Two eyes guy, Fire guy
- same with only Two Eyes guy and Fire guy
- same with Flying guy (5th enemy) and One eyed guy
edit3: thanks Chanoyu! Ok so I need a different strategy idea then :)
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
9 saved overall.
Very nice! I downloaded "ka_viewer.lua" maybe from keyword. I'm currently trying some different minor X pos sacrifices in room 2 and trying to understand how does Kirby gets powerups from inhaling enemies (needed for room 3)
Here's what I've tried without success:
* room 2 start: sacrifice X pos before 1st red enemy while 2nd enemy "green slime on top of the hill" comes forward to us. --> Always slower or same time as your new movie, no matter if I sacrifice 1 frame at the end of room 1. (in Kirby's Adventure, sometimes you can sacrifice a single frame at the end of the level to get 1 lag frame fewer in the next room).
* room 2 spitting star after jumping with different starting: 3 frames slower
* room 3: get hit by monkey, kill 3rd enemy with invincibility --> many frames slower
* room 3: inhale 3 enemies: no success to pull it off
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Is this TAS includes improvements from my usermoviefile?
User movie #52196178845186531
edit: Oh, so the previous TAS was done by Lobsterzelda and was aware of my userfile, okay!
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Okay but where is the frame war
edit: If someone can throw a Lua script at me for BizHawk (MUGG's Lua script doesn't works while TAStudio is opened) or FCEUX I might check the TAS out
edit2: Without Lua script, I watched the movie looks very impressive, very optimized!
I've tried a bunch of different tricks in room 1 and none of them saved time:
- 1st enemy action (explode earlier (this TAS), explode later, jump)
- different jumping sequence (lag manipulation)
But I could save 1-2 frames right at the end, when inhaling (U) and exhale (B) at the end.
I don't know how to optimize the end of the room (after exhaling, 2-3 frames of R, empty, more R and dash to end), so I will upload 2 different version:
V2 exhale at frame 897 - 2 frames saved
User movie #638734043701335756
V3 exhale at frame 893 - 1 frame saved
User movie #638734044089430066
This TAS exhales at 899. Note that the optimizable part is combination of:
- timing of inhale and exhale
- Y pos manipulation with A
- X pos manipulation
- Lag manipulation
edit: This means it's not a definitive comparison point.
The movie won't sync after this, and note that in this game, sometimes a single frame save might not possible to carry over through the other rooms.
I personally think this TAS should be accepted, as there is no definitive proof it's improvable with this.
(You are free to use these userfiles, no need for authorship/credits)
(also sorry for the wall of text)
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Link to video
Emulator used: BizHawk 2.10
Alyosha wrote:
https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638731980781426147
Here's a complete run that beats the game. The wart fight is sloppy still but that's fixable.
Overall I lost ~ 30 frames to resyncing, still a ~6 second improvement overall.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Yes it involves a lot of backtracking in this state of experiments done and researched by Retro Game Mechanics Explained.
The video covers multiple tricks so I guess it might help a little bit with this TAS objective (any%) and more with other objective in case the conditions met (e.g. abusing warping in warpless, don't know the rules).
I know nearly nothing about this game and TAS apart from playing on console as a kid.
edit: I see there are many 3 different SMB2 TASes
https://tasvideos.org/2G
"warps"
"warpless"
"warps, princess only"
edit2: Alyosha posted it in the SMB2 thread, I guess the conversation should be held there, sorry for posting in the wrong place :(
I also see Alyosha just made a new post in the SMB2 thread so I guess it would have been a better place to write.https://tasvideos.org/Forum/Topics/26?CurrentPage=27&Highlight=534038#534038But I don't want to double post this information until it's proven to be able to save time for any of the TASes.
(edited out FDS, thanks Noxxa)
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Is this TAS uses the shenanigans explained in this video?
Link to video
I made a YouTube comment with the chapters. Here's also the list:
0:00 Introduction to room transition mechanics
0:41 How room transitions work
1:18 Level layout and transition objects
1:36 The level exit table explained
4:12 Examples of door and vine transitions
5:05 Positioning mechanics in transitions
9:14 Using glitches to warp between levels
11:58 Skipping Birdo in level 1-1
13:19 Manipulating transitions in level 1-2
15:40 Boss skipping and the desync mechanism
16:15 How level variables are managed
17:23 End of level algorithm flowchart
21:14 Full flowchart
22:30 Alternative wrong warp methods and conclusion
23:30 Shoutouts and level format decoding
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
I'm thinking on checking out this TAS in terms of improving in the following days.
Currently my notes in my mind are:
- keyword does lot of clips in his no abilities TAS edit: and I'm interested in pause clip having any beneficial effects for us - https://tasvideos.org/9286S
- MUGG's lua script for BizHawk 2.9 edit: lag counter is unreliable in TAStudio, both for playback and frame advance, need to check out Masterjun's old lua for the 1st GEG movie (I assume 2.9 is the latest BizHawk) - https://pastebin.com/aAUh2Wtf
- check out keyword's resync movie for comparison times - https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638624734825493529
- start from this thread's fceux movie (to optimize resync as well)
- rewatch that youtube video I saw people doing the damage cancellling/damage boost trick on Switch Nintendo World Championship trial (which might only work on spikes which we don't have in any%) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4r3FMEU4bQ Firefall Rush, ending the stage with a damage boost from spike, probably doesn't works with enemies, 0:22 in the video
- edit: the youtube video I've watched that prompt me to revisit Kirby was Abyssoft's video (my 2nd favourite TAS youtuber after Bismuth): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Lf_73rB-w
Is there anything I missed?
unrelated note: on Switch NES Kirby's Adventure and on Switch NWC Kirby the game crashes (looks like they couldn't find a way to identify and make sure to disable this strategy by rewinding back to safe place) - https://youtu.be/OZi6O3x99Q4?t=204
WIP so far:
- keyword's resync very good up to level 1 2nd screen
- try 2nd screen different routes for lag reductioning (eat less or shoot twice or dmg boost and compare them)
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
keyword wrote:
tried to resync this on bizhawk 2.8 but couldn't get the credits to show. best / most interesting thing i could get was the title screen using some arcane inputs: https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/638623087674909796 wondering if there's any path left here or if it's just not possible in neshawk.
- IIRC you need the correct subpixel positions at the moment of final B press. My version (previously released TAS) used a lua script to get those subpixel values.
- Using extra inputs: as far as I know, you can't trigger it with extra input. You can delay the evident crash or freeze it (non lag frames after crash) but you can't manipulate it to trigger end screen.
I don't have tools installed/collected to verify stuffs. Are those position values equal to between the two emulators (fceux 2.2.3 and your selected version of BizHawk)?
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Yes vote! Looks like it's a Sokoban game with traps and questions and then it goes "bullet-hell" or at least "move from danger zone" gameplay. And there's hell and anime girls.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Samsara wrote:
So you'll follow those rules, but you disregard the rules against hate speech by keeping that ableist slur in your forum signature? This isn't the first time you've been warned about using that word, either. Remove it.
changed it. edit: of course my personal opinion is I think these "ban words" rules are ridiculous.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
I saw a few interesting notes about this on various not allowed to link sites, so here's one quoted:
VSC scanlines wrote:
Often these games may be stable enough to run on both NTSC and PAL systems. These are the ideal specs that Atari adhered to:
100% standard compatible NTSC games display 262 lines per frame at 60Hz
100% standard compatible PAL games display 312 lines at 50Hz
Games in both versions will be off about the same (NTSC will be ~10% faster and PAL ~7% slower). Most companies developed games in NTSC and later converted them to PAL. Since programmers were mainly concerned with having a stable image and acceptable colors, no time was spent on adjusting gameplay so that it ran identical to the NTSC version. What this means for players is, in most cases, playing a PAL version of a game compared to an NTSC version gives the PAL player an advantage, both in time and difficulty (due to PAL games running slower). In addition, the PAL version will offer a larger playfield.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
BizHawk 2.8 + DrD2k9's usermovie test
Syncs on:
2bee7f226d506c217163bad4ab1768c0 *Ghost Manor (1983)(Xonox)(NTSC)[o].bin
40d8ed6a5106245aa79f05642a961485 *Ghost Manor (1983) (Xonox) (PAL) [!].a26
3b10106836565e5db28c7823c0898fbb *Ghost Manor (1983) (Xonox) (PAL) [a1][!].a26
Doesn't syncs on:
0eecb5f58f55de9db4eedb3a0f6b74a8 *Ghost Manor (1983) (Xonox).a26
Also I had no idea that an A2600 TAS can sync on both NTSC and PAL ROM.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
In level 5 the TAS gets the flower (fire) upgrade and only uses it once where it saves time, at level 7 start. I'm think it loses time. Will watch it again later. Watched it, don't have other improvement ideas.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
For your information, rota is an order of names and jobs to do. Sometimes the tasks or the persons rotates.
I don't have a suggestion for another word in your sentence apart from removing it (not required, I was just interested in the word choice). You might want to use the word permutation. The numbers for each stage in this game permutates over time (and due to maybe other unknown factors).
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
Yes vote!
Two stupid questions I have:
1. 2 players because you pressed buttons on the 2nd player pad?
2. Did you really meant to write rota? First time I've saw this word and realized it's not an acrynom. acronym
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Skilled player
(1897)
Joined: 11/14/2009
Posts: 1367
Location: 𝔐𝔞𝔤𝑦𝔞𝔯
MESHUGGAH wrote:
To be sure, I've just googled NES SMB3 Super Orb Bros and it seems the SMB3 legends call this one of the greatest ROM hack to exist.
I'd like to see sources backing up the statement.
In particular, I'm wondering who these "SMB3 legends" are.
I've literally googled what I wrote and presed Video:
https://www.google.com/search?q=nes+smb3+super+mario+orb
and I've meant particularly Grand POOBear and Mitchflowerpower. Not to belittle anyone else relevant to SMB3 like TASers, but I've just made a quick google search and found these two on first page.
Here's their own videos for this ROM hack:
Link to videoLink to video
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
https://tasvideos.org/1103M
Mega Man NES speedrun in 22:15 by Arcus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzUqmG-dMz0
Note: This TAS has crazy graphics because of the pause + beam + moving through rooms to rooms trick
https://tasvideos.org/1686M
Now, unfortunately, 2601M the game ending glitch TAS console verification video doesn't shows the 