Posts for Inzult

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My understanding of the doll argument is that although you can permanently collect the dolls, they do not permanently upgrade your character. It's the same sort of logic that doesn't require every chest to be opened, for example, in Link to the Past. Or all Secrets in Legend of Zelda. Or keys, for that matter. So it's more of a what changes Link than a what changes the world approach. The max levels point is a different affair. I'd put that in the same sort of place as grinding out max levels in an RPG. Or perhaps max bomb/arrow capacity in Link to the Past. They're not done, but in a way I think those sorts of goals basically boil down to "that's boring". In this case, though, I'm not sure it actually would be boring since farming gems is fairly reasonable. I've downgraded my feeling to mixed on that one.
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As far as I know, there's no modern RTA 100% run that requires max levels or all 1-up dolls. There is definitely precedent for all keys being required for 100%. As I glossed over before, and will do again, I think the actual All Keys category has some unusual restrictions. Regardless, I'd definitely omit dolls and max levels. Keys, I could take or leave. The rest, though, is perfectly cromulent.
Arc wrote:
I think it's best not to do any serious gamebreakers, because if people are watching 100%, I think that they want to explore of whole game "in peace" without graphical corruption or other glitches that would make the game not "authentic." But otherwise it would be done as fast as possible, meaning warps are ok.
In terms of what exists for RTA, this describes something in between 100%, which is essentially anything goes (including scroll lock) as long as you get everything, and 100% No Major Glitches, which disallows glitch town/fairy fall and scroll lock but still lets you deathwarp to northern palace and do encounter skips. If I'm understanding you right, it sounds like you're talking about a No Scroll Lock run? An Any% version of that run exists, but I don't think 100% does, as of now. Not to say that a TAS has to be constrained to RTA precedent, necessarily, but I think it's a decent starting point in terms of planning. If you think it's useful, Arc, I could try to wrangle up some runners to post their thoughts?
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I think leaving warpless as-is is perfectly reasonable. I also don't think defining 100% is trivial. It's more that just 'what counts as everything', which glitches to include can also play a role. For RTA, 100% All Keys is the most popular, but I've always found that ruleset fairly arbitrary. You could go all the way the other way with it as well, and do 100% with all glitches allowed. There's precedent for that style as well in RTA but for TAS does that mean l+r is allowed? Then, do boss kills count, or merely gem placements?
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That was a serious read for a serious movie-- yes vote on the poll thinger, great job on the movie as always, arc. I liked the part where you went to palace 1.
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I will say that I only took a cursory glance at the leveling. I was more interested in the macro savings for the initial investigation. But to focus in on the 38 minute run, this key is available near the start of P5. With the Jump spell, you can damage boost up there, whatever is faster. That saves 1 cast of the 3 needed to get to the flute. Edit: It saves 2 casts, the cast to skip this room and the cast to skip the next door. After that, we need 2 casts on the way to the flute, then 3 on the way to gooma, with another red jar after the 2nd. So in theory a blue jar and a magic level in some order would solve problems. Or indeed, an extra death. There is also the key on the ledge behind the red ironknuckle, on the route to the flute. It's slightly out of the way, but saves 2 casts of fairy. Warps gets Jump, so it's available. Warpless does not, so it's (perhaps) unavailable. So in warps, we can get it to 1 after the refill on the way to the flute, then 1 on the way out, then a refill, then 1 on the way to gooma.
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Well what do you know. I measured the other movie. On the gem pedestal, if you up&a after losing control of link but before the gem is actually in the statue, it removes the gem from your inventory, but the statue is still active. For some reason, nobody has thought to check if you could place another gem after this situation has arisen. If, however, the palace item is collected and the gem is fake-placed, the palace still turns to stone and you can't return. Great Palace only requires that you have 0 gems left to place, and so you can skip bosses. The obvious use of this is to place the gem in Palace 1 multiple times to save time elsewhere by skipping bosses, notably the boss of Palace 4, which requires a lot of preparation. However, if a required item is skipped, a gem can be placed multiple times in any palace-- except Palace 2, which requires the palace item to reach the boss. Thus, technically any gem is available to exploit, if it saves time. For completeness' sake, all gems will be considered for exploit (besides Palace 6). You could skip an earlier boss and double P6's gem, but it takes nearly as long to walk to P6 as to finish P1, let alone the gem altar, so I won't measure. Frame counts are considered approximate; small changes to exact overworld path, key collection, spell queueing and level-up dialogue boxes will change these slightly. Reference movie for timing: [3254] NES Zelda II: The Adventure of Link "warpless" by Arc, FatRatKnight, Inzult & Rising_Tempest in 45:26.04 Below is theoretical time lost for doubling up on gems, ignoring boss fights. Counting from the start palace, since doubled gems should always be from (or include) an up&a and thus always add that time. All counts in frames. Time spent doubling Gem: P1; 7,236 P2; N/A (Glove Required) P3; 10,475 P4; 11,313 P5; 11,033 P6; N/A Below is theoretical time saved for skipping bosses/prep. Obviously, skipping a gem means you can't also double it. For P4, the time collecting the kid and Reflect spell must also be considered and has been added. P6 can be skipped, however, Old and New Kasuto still must be visited and as such the overworld route is basically unchanged. Time saved skipping Gem: P1; 7,692 (No need to visit) P2; 7,215 P3; 5,307 P4; 10,158 [kid quest] / 6,545 [gem skip] P5; 6,502 P6; 9,995 (No need to visit) So, with P1 being so quick to double, it's the only real option. I was thinking P3 might be more competative, but it is too slow. For P2, estimates put it very close whether skipping the boss is worthwhile, and thus would have to be tested more exactly. P3 and P5 bosses/gems should not be skipped, as they are close enough to the required items to be worth the visit. Since P6 can be ignored, and P4 takes so much prep, they should be skipped. The route becomes: finish P1 3 (or 4) times, finish P3 and P5 (and maybe P2) while getting the items. This does affect the leveling, particularly magic. Since there are no longer 4 doors in a row to pass in P4, it doesn't need to be rushed as quickly. Magic-5 is still required eventually, possibly for Palace 5, and definitely for Thunderbird. For P5, with 7 bars of magic even at magic 3, timely blue jars and/or death abuse should be enough to get through. This aspect would take some closer examination. As for the other movie, it should be measured separately, since some routing is different. I suspect it would math out more or less the same overall, though. Whether or not this exploit is good to use in both or either run is a separate question, and I welcome opinions starting... now. eta: i think skipping the P5 boss saves even less time than listed, since it would add an extra up&a and trip back to East Hyrule at ~1,600 frames.
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Hello. I've been paying attention to this a little bit. I intend on exploring routing ideas soon.
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voting yes; nice catch.
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For the record, I'd vote yes for a movie that uses death to obsolete this one. I can't think of a good reason to have two runs of this on the site. Unless a 4 player playaround or something like that really knocks my socks off, of course.
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Here's the updated file: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/41497130963789971 96 frames faster than submitted version thanks to better Fighting Scene. If it's not publishable because of the Swimming event, well. Someone else will have to take another pass, because I am completely stumped.
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I did, in fact. I got the same result. I don't know what I'm missing. At this point, my plan is to just fix the Fighting event and call it a TAS.
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Alright. I don't understand how that other TAS gets such long combos in swimming. I'm probably missing something obvious, but I can't get the opponent to not get stunned as soon as he runs out of oxygen. Does anyone have any insight?
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Looks like reducing the player's HP for 400m is only useful if you want to fail the Golf? Even so, it might be better to win at 400m and buy two HP reducing items before Golf. I didn't measure intentionally losing events. For swimming, it looks like he takes an RNG setup I found as well, giving Baldy in the second round (61 defense). But when I reduced HP on him, he always lost his first round. I didn't consider buying 4 HP reducing items. Also, I'm not sure how he gets so many hits before the opponent gets stunned and sinks? He is able to get 15(!) whereas I'm only able to get 6. So, there's two things to think about with swimming. Does the time spent buying 4 items make up for the extra time in the event with a higher defense opponent? It looks like the answer is no, if I can replicate the long combos. So I think my RNG is better, but the execution of the event is not as good, so I end up losing time here. Perhaps it is possible to let the CPU regain some oxygen between hits, but I'm not sure how that strategy is done. For the Fighting Scene, it's a bit simpler. I didn't consider that strategy. The opponents I got were Spoon (74 defense), Clint (114) and Bubba (114). Looks like he took Nate (77), Clint (114) and Foil (120). So if I'm slower here, the problem is only strategy. I will take a look at what I can do for these two events. Fighting Scene is right at the end, so a change of strategy there will not affect anything. Swimming will certainly affect the Rooftop event, however, so whether or not an improvement there makes the overall movie faster is uncertain. I suppose the best course of action is to delay the submission. The watchability of the run won't be drastically altered with slightly faster punching in one or two events.
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DJ Incendration wrote:
I know that the Stairs Glitch is where you climb 70 stairs and certain things happen. For a credits warp, you need to get 56 houses, 57 heals and 201 Pures (the way to get 201 is underflow the pure-count and drink 54 in battle.) Use down to 32 houses, save only with the last one and jump to your inventory (with a code) to get the credits rolling.
Sounds like you have the tools already with the pastebin and the notes and stuff. Here's a video of an RTA playthrough of the credits warp route so you can visualize the setups. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo0CtjU_T_c
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I feel like at this point a TAS block is a shoe in to get into the events if people are willing to put something together, but we don't always have to shoot for the stars. You don't have to always worry about topping yourself. Maybe we go from total control madness where we're pushing skype through an SNES one year to a string of TASes suitable for the awful block the next. Maybe we spend all of our time and resources developing a cool secret idea to show one year, and we spend all of our time and resources developing cool commentary for regular runs the next. When I saw snake come out of SMW, I was blown away. The next year, The choco mountain race did the job, then it was brain age. This year was cool, it showed some awesome tech and really great planning with the three consoles working together. But besides the snake "main event", it's been the smaller stuff that I keyed in on. This time there wasn't really any smaller stuff. I mean, Gradius is fine, but that doesn't really carry. I don't think you have to go all the way open, because surprise is fun. I don't think you have to go all the way secret, because sometimes you need help. I don't think you have to show only published tases, I don't think you have to do only special tases just for gdq. Not always and forever, in any case. Let's just show some fun runs next time, the time after that we can do something interesting with tech. Anyway, dwango, you did an amazing job. It can be completely thankless to waste hours and days and weeks and months practicing to go up there for 30 minutes and do the best you can and get crapped on for it. I can relate. Thank you for having done this.
Post subject: More TAS showcases on SGL
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So, in December of 2016 we did this special about the various Zelda 2 TASes. I'd like to to do more specials. I'm already out of games I know about, but if anyone wants to showcase their games, maybe we can make more episodes. Please do reply to the thread or PM me. This was only a pilot episode, so I'm super open to ideas, better ways to present the TASes, and anything else I can't think of.
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Thanks for being on the show Arc, hopefully more players will want to do more shows like this in the future. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rebfiXzCrY0
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Yes vote, nice update.
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Actually Arc, one thing comes to mind. In the published movie, after the second healer glitch we do the warp to king's tomb, to mido, to bagu's hut. I can't remember how good we were about checking this, but there's another way through Mido; this. It trades movement in the town for screen loads. e: there's also an alternate version of scroll lock where you enter the second door on glitch town. this changes where stuff loads in relation to link. also, if you pass the first door and return to it on a later pass through the glitch town, it changes how far the screen scrolls. these are things worth exploring. I guess I'm a liar. I have ideas.
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I had no other routing ideas besides what were included in the previous version of the glitched run. I wonder if there's a method to acquire the fairy spell without medicine, but I don't have any specific ideas.
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Arc wrote:
Kung Knut wrote:
Are any of the new techniques used in your warps and no warps runs also applicable in the glitched 5-minute run?
The warp-glitch run could use the encounter glitch on the bridge after exiting Glitch Town the first time (frame 1700). It could also use the encounter glitch on the bridge to Saria (frame 10000). So it looks like there are about 3 seconds of time saved.
There's one encounter glitch in the 5 minute run already, after the warp to maze island. We didn't really know what it was or how it worked, though, so it didn't get applied elsewhere.
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Zelda 2 is probably less controversial in terms of what counts as 100% compared with other zelda games. But nobody's been interested in making a high quality tas of that run thus far. I've seen a 100% AK tas by Boats, but it was more of a theory tas.
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Arc wrote:
I tried the healer glitch on her and it takes me into the house like usual.
You know what, this makes sense. I should have inferred this. Or remembered it maybe. However brains work.
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Yes vote. A Thing occurs to me. Would it be faster to use the lady guarding Reflect spell to healer glitch into glitch town and exit darunia that way after grapping the spell? Probably not, it takes a while for her to spawn. But I'm curious.
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Neat! This is certainly more in-depth than I could or would get with the spawn RNG.