Several people suggested I do a run of Sonic and Knuckles 3 to see if I could improve on SprintGod's run. I didn't think I could improve such a perfect run by more than a few frames, but it soon became clear that I was completely wrong about that. SprintGod's movie is full of amazingly precise playing and several tricks I have to admit I never would have found, but there were still some glitches he didn't find and some occasional slight imprecision in the playing. Also, he played 1-player with Sonic instead of 2-player with Sonic and Tails. Tails makes quite a difference, although my (extremely rough) estimate is that about 50% of this improvement could have been made without him. I should emphasize that I had (/made) much better tools for making this run than SprintGod had. Speed display + camera hack for each character + map maker + jump predictor + multitrack recorder... In any case, the result was a significantly (about 10 minutes) shorter movie.
LevelTimeUnits Improved
Angel Island 10:385
Angel Island 21:162
Hydrocity 10:3310
Hydrocity 21:0416
Marble Garden 10:3710
Marble Garden 20:3525
Carnival Night 10:348
Carnival Night 21:0838
Icecap 11:1611
Icecap 20:0041
Launch Base 11:3810
Launch Base 21:072
Mushroom Hill 10:462
Mushroom Hill 20:3723
Flying Battery 11:0836
Flying Battery 21:1498 (1:38)
Sandopolis 11:458
Sandopolis 21:2839
Lava Reef 11:1226
Lava Reef 20:51129 (2:09)
Hidden Palace0:260
Sky Sanctuary0:523
Death Egg 11:0427
Death Egg 22:1834
Total24:07565 (9:41)
I chose to not use death to save time, either in-game or real-time; SprintGod didn't use death either, and probably more people would be annoyed by it than appreciate it in this case. This also applies to entering bonus games, which interrupt the action and put you back at the last checkpoint and roll back the timer in a way similar to dying.
Thanks to Upthorn for showing how to activate the glitch in Icecap 1 and another glitch in Marble Garden 1, and for his Knuckles movie to give another source of ideas and comparison, and for giving some feedback about this movie while it was in progress, and for his recent work on Gens and help with some tools in it. And I believe it was mike89 on Sonic Center who revealed the Marble Garden 2 glitch.
See SprintGod's comments for a good explanation of the game's basic physics and quirks/glitches. Some more detailed (but currently very incomplete) information can be found at Sonic the Hedghehog tricks. A few things to add are: Acceleration is better in the air than on the ground, but deceleration is better on the ground (unless rolling) than in the air. Most of the glitches used to pass through objects work by tricking the game into putting those objects offscreen long enough for Sonic to pass through them, because the game does not do any calculations with objects that are offscreen.
Sorry for what I do to Icecap 1 and 2, but it is clearly much faster than beating it normally, and at least Icecap 1 has some nice music to listen to.
Some things that might seem like mistakes:
  • At the end of Mushroom Hill 1, Tails has to hit the signpost to the far left, otherwise Knuckles won't appear. I get a fire shield earlier because it is not in the ground anywhere on that screen to get from the signpost.
  • In Hydrocity 2, I have to wait for the third timed object, but starting that level enough later to save another time unit would place the first and/or second timed objects in places where I would need to wait even longer to get through.
  • The "teleport" glitch I use mainly in Launch Base and Lava Reef requires that Sonic be on the ground and at high speed from more than half of a screenful away (so it is not possible to use it in very many places), and sometimes it is slower even when it is possible because there is rarely enough time to do a full-speed spin dash when doing it.
  • Ending Flying Battery 2 where I do is actually faster than ending it with Sonic all the way to the right because of the jump, and the flying glitch I would normally do to save time is not possible there because of the type of ground.
  • At the very end of Hidden Palace zone, the game has a bug where it forgets to return control to player 2. The level won't end until both Sonic and Tails are in place by the teleporter, so I make Tails go there indirectly by using Sonic's command for a spindash as a jump for Tails.
  • In Launch Base 1, I run past a booster without triggering it because I am already moving faster than the booster speed, and rolling down that decline would be slower because rolling has a speed cap (which running does not).
  • I briefly pause the game before the fight with Metal Sonic in order to manipulate his random attack pattern into something better (the same one SprintGod had).
  • When Tails is uncontrollable, he can be tricked into landing early by jumping at the right height near him. But it is difficult to make him actually arrive anywhere earlier; the game will take away his control and teleport him to a predefined nearby spawn point when he has spent too much time offscreen, giving player 2 typically less than a second of control over when he starts flying (very slowly in the vertical direction) to reach you. He only arrives quickly at boss fights because the edge of forced screen boundaries will push him there.
  • The start of Mushroom Hill 2 (while offscreen) progresses more slowly than normal because all of the loops are broken (they are impenetrable walls that must be jumped on top of) and the springs and other objects are not there.
  • In Sandopolis 1, I don't use Tails to bypass the red spring under the sand river because it's not enough faster to avoid the next wait for a timed object.
  • I found a way to skip the midboss of Launch Base 2 that would save time, except it causes the timer to not stop for the extremely long cutscene.
  • The Launch Base 1 boss is "afraid" of Sonic and moves up when Sonic is in the air nearby it, so it's faster to kill it with Tails alone and keep Sonic always under it.
  • Sonic can't touch any of those moving platforms in Flying Battery without losing the glitch.
  • It's possible to zip further into the level in Launch Base 1, but doing so would skip the speed shoes and ultimately be slightly slower.
  • No death
  • Aims for fastest (primarily in-level) time
  • Ignores delays caused by bonus effects
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Abuses programming errors in the game (a lot)
  • Manipulates luck (a little)
  • One player controls two characters
  • Emulator used: Gens Movie Test 9j (works with 9f, etc.)

DeHackEd: Claim!
Bisqwit: Already done!


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Senior Moderator
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Well, we had "master ninja" Finalfighter who achieved his rank for continually breaking the NES Mega Man series masterfully. Now we also have Nitsuja breaking Genesis and GBA Sonic games just the same (not to mention the time saved in result). :)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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comicalflop wrote:
I asked not long ago if you were interested in doing this, you said maybe and BAM we get another run. I have no idea how you come out with such amazingly great movies, IN SUCH A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME.
It was already well nearing completion when you asked that question. It wasn't done that quickly.
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You worked on it for not more than 1.5 months, probably less (judging from the time of your previous submission), and that's still a VERY SHORT amount of time for a run that complex (almost 200 thousands of rerecords, for god's sake). Nearly the same for Sonic 2. Nearly the same for Sonic Advance 3. You submitted more than 10 runs since the beginning of this year alone, all of them of great quality, accepted and/or published. Dude, you're the fastest working TASer at the moment, and I mean it.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Sir_VG
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Question: With 57 "YES" votes and 0 "NO" or "MEH" votes, WHY IS THIS NOT ACCEPTED YET?!?!?! Also, why isn't nitsuja running this site yet? I think we should change the name from TASVideos to "nitsujaDestroysSonicVideos".
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
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Sir VG wrote:
Also, why isn't nitsuja running this site yet?
Running this site? Yeah, right… ;D
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Mitjitsu
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Sir VG wrote:
Question: Also, why isn't nitsuja running this site yet? I think we should change the name from TASVideos to "nitsujaDestroysSonicVideos".
Well he doesn't have the record for Sonic 1 and 10 bucks says that even if he attempted to obselte the previous run he wouldn't be able to beat it by >3 seconds.
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AKA wrote:
Well he doesn't have the record for Sonic 1 and 10 bucks says that even if he attempted to obselte the previous run he wouldn't be able to beat it by >3 seconds.
Why did I see this coming?
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Wouldn't that still be obsoleting it? Despite that he does have a monopoly on totally owning all the sonic games. Just fully watched it today, and, just, wow.
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Gah, i voted meh by accident. Count this meh vote as a Yes. I'll do not waste space talking about this video. It's awesome. Period.
Not more working on: DKC3 105% < Needs modified Nitsuja Snes9x+9, with reset recording.
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I wonder if it's possible to create a dual movie, with one showing all of tail's movements, that'd be very entertaining to see
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AKA wrote:
Well he doesn't have the record for Sonic 1 and 10 bucks says that even if he attempted to obselte the previous run he wouldn't be able to beat it by >3 seconds.
I bet he couldn't beat SMB3 by more than 3 seconds either WHAT A LAMER.
Nielbung wrote:
Gah, i voted meh by accident. Count this meh vote as a Yes.
If only this were a Mega Man run, it could be fixed! Lament.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Sir_VG
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AKA wrote:
Well he doesn't have the record for Sonic 1 and 10 bucks says that even if he attempted to obselte the previous run he wouldn't be able to beat it by >3 seconds.
Come on, this is nitsuja we're talking about here. He completely erased levels here. I'm hoping he actually skips the Genesis version and does a speedrun for the GBA version on arranged mode so we can see how bad Sonic 1 can be broken.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
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What is added/changed in GBA version?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Sir_VG
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There's two modes: 1) Original. Same game, though the display is tweaked because of the different resolution. 2) Arranged. Spin dash added. That's what I know at the moment.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
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Hmm, the spindash-enabled Sonic 1 could indeed be pretty interesting to watch. Thanks for the tip.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
upthorn
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There's more difference than that. Most of the differences can be summed up with the statement "Sonic: Genesis" appears to suck; very, very badly... This page has a video which demonstrates.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Mitjitsu
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Well, I have SJ on the Saturn which has Spin dash featute and the Scrap Brain glitch doesn't work on it, it also has different spike physics so you don't intantly die if you bounce of it again as soon as you lose your rings. The one quirk I've found is , if you spin dash against a wall and move in the oposite direction then you get the eternal pushing animation until you jump or hit a wall, it can be done normally if you hit the end stage 3 button and land on the left side of the animal pod. The Green Hill 2 glitch still exists, but going underneath the stage using spin sash still doesn't prevent you from dieing. EDIT: Unless there was something wrong with the capture then the GBA version plays very badly.
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upthorn wrote:
"Sonic: Genesis" appears to suck; very, very badly...
AKA wrote:
Unless there was something wrong with the capture then the GBA version plays very badly.
I wouldn't say anything about how bad it is when they haven't even finished it yet. EDIT: Now that they have released it, criticize away. Looks like they never finished it. It lags all the time and has completely different physics.
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AKA wrote:
Well he doesn't have the record for Sonic 1 and 10 bucks says that even if he attempted to obselte the previous run he wouldn't be able to beat it by >3 seconds.
$10,000 says there is a single level that proves you wrong. Seriously, though, if you cough up $10,000 I'd be happy to show it to you.
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Simply amazing! You seriously raped this game. I'd vote yes if I could, but I'm still new and don't know everything about these boards. I don't see anywhere I can vote, and the FAQ said something about if you can't see it, then you might not have the privilege yet. Either way, you have a thumbs up from me, good sir.
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nitsuja wrote:
upthorn wrote:
Are you going to incorporate either of these tricks into your run?
Probably, but not immediately. See my edited post at the end of page 2. There's a chance I'll get it done in a few days though, if it turns out to be easier than I think it will. (Does anyone know of any other possible improvements?)
One thing occured to me. In Hidden Palace, with Super Sonic it's possible to just stand on Knuckles and he'll take eight hits before he even gets off the ground. Would something similar be possible by abusing Sonic/Tails' invincibility time after a hit?
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probably not with the invincibility after being hit, since that's used against main bosses without getting the desired affect that you're suggesting against Knuckles.
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mike89 wrote:
Would something similar be possible by abusing Sonic/Tails' invincibility time after a hit?
It's a special case for when Sonic is Super or has an invincibility monitor (which is a little too far out of the way to get without losing more time than it gains, even with the speed shoes next to it). Knuckles won't take damage then otherwise. You can easily test this even with Sonic alone, it simply doesn't work. comicalflop: That fight completely ignores the normal rules of hit detection that apply everywhere else.
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I see... would mike89's suggestion work then?
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Sir VG wrote:
Question: With 57 "YES" votes and 0 "NO" or "MEH" votes, WHY IS THIS NOT ACCEPTED YET?!?!?!.
Simple: Because the sheer "wtf" of the TAS keeps breaking the encoding process. It's that insane. (Oh, and everyone's mind. They're too stunned to type out coherent sentences right now.) Btw, you also managed to break my friend's mind as well. I hope you're happy without yourself ninja man. :[
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