Is there no damage storage with crouch stabs in MM?
I believe crouch stab damage storing was removed in MM; i certainly don't remember seeing any in the SDA run, nor in Petrie's descriptions of his TAS test runs
I don't how that was removed, because power crouching wasn't discovered till years after MM was released.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I agree that it probably wasn't noticed until afterwards, crouch stabbing is not an intuitive part of the game. Everyone knows a jumpslash does double damage, but in typical game-wise fashion at the cost of speed; but nobody could of guessed that double damage could be stored and applied quickly with crouch stabs.
And a few physics of MM were changed, most likely the MM programmers changed the damage storing capabilities without knowing it existed in the first place.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I didn't understand that post... the changes made the physics more abusable? I know bomb hovering is superior in MM, but I don't see any other improvements of the glitches in MM compared to OoT... and I really don't seem to recall crouch stabs being used in MM
A quick test could sort this all out.
I really do not want this run to be abandoned
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
The goron bomb jumps alone make MM's physics set up for abusable. We were skipping Epona and half of Ikana Fortress before anyone even got close to skipping the Gerudo Gates.
What run? For all the pages in this topic, I see no one who has committed to TASing this game.
I did at the start but the desyncs pushed me over the edge. I experienced 28 before playing the SoT in the clock tower. Plus no one other than me has ever got it to fully run. I'd wait until there is improvements in emulation first before starting again, becuase I must have rechecked the entire movie hundreds of times becuase thats the only way you trully know if you have avoided desyncs. Its a weird kind of TASing becuase its more of a "do it till it looks acceptable and doesn't desync"
I ran into some similar problem when I was doing it and when I was doing the GBT TAS.
And the things that make the physics so abusable are that the shield blocks bomb blasts and that there are no hover boots.
The OoT programmers had to protect against hover boot skips, so things have gaps with that in mind. MM has no hover boots, meaning gaps are generally shorter, rooms more intricate, and the hover glitch is much more abusable. The shield blocking bombs makes the glitch go so much faster and easier.
Oh, and Goron Link jumping on command and the changed jump physics also add to the abusability, I suppose.
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
I agree. I was considering looking at it purely for that reason after finishing my Gex run (I'm reasonably confident with the Mupen now).
I do really love this game and someone needs to bite the bullet for a few months to just get it done. I'm not commiting myself to anything but it would be feasible for me as i have a lot of spare time between now and next September.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Spare time and Patience I have, but I sorta realized I have no idea how to TAS it. I realized that after 2 minutes of trying backwalking, I came to the conclusion I have no idea where shit is, and thus would be walking "blind"
I'd love to help out if in fact you do try it.
And I sort of got it to work- it had to run in full screen mode and had a few problems by the time Link fell into the room where he changes into a deu scrub but I think with some noodling around I could've fixed that.
there's a route all planned out, a previous Zelda TAS to compare with, and very abusable glitches- I say it cannot go to waste.
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
I agree entirely.
I've played this game normally about 4 or 5 times so i have a good idea of where everything is.
Someone needs to just do it and your help would be much appreciated. Whether you want to do a combined run or just assist here and there either would be great.
I don't think this even needs tested, like you said the route is there and there are plenty of very knowledgable people on the forums to keep us right.
I wouldn't bother with a test run other than just going just getting started right away. You have to remember that the game runs at 20 fps so you have to hold the inputs for three frames until it updates the graphics. I've requested that that all games should update the graphics everytime the frame advane button is pressed and Nitsuja said is should be relativley easy to implement. There really isn't anything to discover, other than maybe getting Deku Link into the clock tower early and being able to store the endless sword technique as a Goron, but both are pretty unlikely. It might be worth doing the beaver races to get the bottlle as the flying glitch could be used to get there quicly, but certainly all the dungeons don't have much else that could be abused.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
And of course, the bomb hovering should be abused like no tomorrow, as well as the shield sliding (I forget the nickname of it)
it is unfortunate that not as much can be skipped as OoT, but still a projected 3ish hours won't be too bad.
and as long as tiny sections are TASed and reviewed at a time at a time then desynchs should be minimal. Either that or do everything on the second available frame, or wait to see if Mupen can be upgraded to handle it.
And of course, practice to get good at the game, but that's a given lol
And lastly, the knowledgable posters in this thread will have plenty of weight, I feel that outside input has made the improvement of OoT as good as it is right now, and this game should be no different.
I wouldn't bother with a test run other than just going just getting started right away. You have to remember that the game runs at 20 fps so you have to hold the inputs for three frames until it updates the graphics. I've requested that that all games should update the graphics everytime the frame advane button is pressed and Nitsuja said is should be relativley easy to implement.
You actually don't have to hold them down for that long, depending on the game or how much lag is occurring. 1 frame is enough for some situations - I did 1 frame input in Perfect Dark menu (when that was all that was needed) and it all entered fine, although in game it would never fly.
easy to implement? Wouldn't that be a video plugin thing and not an emulator thing? Banjo Kazooie's framerate is different depending on the plugin used, (though graphics are almost always updated 3 to 4 frames after first frame of input and input needs to be at least 2 frames long, sometimes three to be detected). Another interesting thing about BK is that everything done using d3d will work in sync when played back using opengl, but some things can be done in opengl easier but desync when played back with d3d.... but opengl renders the game like shit (messy hud, black screen when underwater, etc)
easy to implement? Wouldn't that be a video plugin thing and not an emulator thing?
The emulator has to updates the counter of rendered frames somewhere, so it knows when a new frame is being drawn. It's possible that the easy implementation will cause you to miss a frame or two whenever the framerate increases, and of course you will miss any single-VI opportunities that don't correspond with a new frame being rendered, but in practice I don't know if either of those will be a problem. N64 games almost always make you wait for some menu animation before you can use menus, and every game I've tried that runs below 60 FPS either queues up or ignores your input until the next visible frame anyway.
Fixing synchronization issues, of course, is quite difficult. Especially in a relatively slow emulator that lacks debugging features.
This is so fucking annoying knowing its virtually impossible to Tas Majoras Mask (desynch issues) when you see Petries911's clip. That was amazing how fast you utilized that bomb trick. Curse Mupen!!
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
The biggest reason I'm not doing it is the desync problem. This game desyncs like there's no tomorrow. If there weren't that, then I would probably do it. Especially now that I've got super sliding down.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
You could always try my method, to painstakingly do 1-2 minute sections and reviewing the movie file constantly...
but you have your reasons, I might be giving up Rayman 2 for similar (plus it might be an uninteresting game) issues.
