So it's not an improvement because it only saves a few seconds in a community where previous runs are obsoleted by a matter of a few frames?
Sorry, I'm just feeling argumentative tonight... <_<
<Zurreco> if so called professional players cant adapt to every playing field, theyre obviously not that great
It's all relative to the overall length of the movie, and this is true for all speedruns. For a run that's over two hours long, a few seconds of improvement may not be enough to warrant restarting from that far back, if it weren't for the damn desynch. Now, this is not to say that high standards shouldn't be upheld throughout the production of the run (such as the use of frame advance for forwarding text and executing precise maneuvers), but 3-5 seconds of unoptimised play in a single spot is negligible when compared to the run's two-plus hours. If there were a reliable way to hex-edit Mupen64 files, then the run would need to be frame-perfect from start to finish. The obsoleted runs you are referring to are significantly shorter as well as hex-editable, so naturally the standards used to evaluate and compare them are much higher.
Joined: 8/1/2004
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Location: Seattle, WA
Remember how people threw a fit about the last version not using all of the known tricks, thereby leading to a less than perfect attempt?
Yeah, it might happen again.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
so a web skip that saves seconds will not be used because the seconds saved is trite, but backwalking with a foward camera angle, which improves the emtertainment/viewer experience, which will only lose a few seconds, will also not be not be used?
"foward" backwalking should be used because the 1-2 seconds it will lose is negligable over the 2 hour run, for the same reason that saving the few seconds of the web skip is not needed.
web skip should be used as it is quicker and adds to the entertainment/skill of the tas.
forward backwalking could be argued either way as it is a little slower but adds to the entertainment. The time difference/entertainment difference with it is about equal in my eyes so it would be fine either way to me.
EDIT: I actually don't mind if the web skip isn't done either if it means less frustration on guano's part - redoing a run on a game this tedious is, I'm sure, not much fun. With only a couple seconds of difference, I don't see the run not being published because the webskip wasn't done, although doing it would be better.
Make sure the desnycing problem is fixed this time.
I think there should be some more testing on the guards appearing. Like get sun's song and make it day time to see if they're not there just to check. Then try going in close to night time to see when they actually appear so you'll know for sure if you just need to make it faster and also you could tell exactly what time you have to make it in by.
There still needs to be more testing if you can do forest as child without the game getting stuck. If you could do this, would that make a different optimal route where you don't have to race from dondigo's to the castle?
Would a hard reset during the forest temple victory cinema allow you to avoid a freeze while still beating the temple? Just curious if an emulator improvement could lead to a huge path change...
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
only if a hard reset would, at the right time before the freeze give you credit for having beat it. I don't know how resets work in OoT and what gets saved, I know doing a segmented run of MM you have to save with the owl
Yeah, I guess you'd have to save. I wonder if saving before stepping into the portal would give you credit, or whether the items you are carrying would affect anything.
I don't see any value of completing or doing Forest as a child. You still need the arrows which is more awkward given the Temple was designed with Adult Link in mind.
I thought OoT was like banjo-kazooie in that every time a new area goes in or out of memory, items/stats are saved. I remember playing once and then there was a power outage, but when I turned the game back on I had the same stuff as before, minus a few ruppees or something. I could be thinking of a different game though so don't quote me on this.
You guys don't get it.
If a run isn't optimal because of a trick that was discovered after the run had already been completed, that's okay because it was out of the author's control. If someone were dedicated enough to do an improved run, the old run would be obsoleted by a new one that incorporates all tricks. The decision to remake a run would be based on the amount of time the new trick(s) would actually save relative to the length of the whole run and the time needed to produce it.
If a run isn't optimal because the author willingly chooses to waste frames, that's unacceptable because it was in his control.
I firmly believe that "entertainment" is a terrible criterion to be included within speedrunning guidelines. "Entertainment" is a very subjective evaluation, whereas speed isn't. I personally think that backwalking adds to the run's entertainment because of the unpredictability factor, but there are other people who may think otherwise.
I think I can speak for the other folks from the SDA OoT discussions when I say that we would all like to see an optimal run that's as close to the game's theoretical limit as possible--and if the run cannot be frame-perfect, then everything under the author's control should be as close to perfection as possible.
In any case, this is a moot point because Guano is going to redo the run from the web skip, and his work will include all tricks known up to this point. Quite frankly, I don't see the point of arguing over a matter that isn't even relevant right now.
If a run isn't optimal because of a trick that was discovered after the run had already been completed, that's okay because it was out of the author's control. If someone were dedicated enough to do an improved run, the old run would be obsoleted by a new one that incorporates all tricks. The decision to remake a run would be based on the amount of time the new trick(s) would actually save relative to the length of the whole run and the time needed to produce it.
The web skip has been discovered before this run has been completed, should it be redone then so that it is included?
mwl wrote:
I firmly believe that "entertainment" is a terrible criterion to be included within speedrunning guidelines. "Entertainment" is a very subjective evaluation, whereas speed isn't. I personally think that backwalking adds to the run's entertainment because of the unpredictability factor, but there are other people who may think otherwise.
This site's published movies do, IMO, need to be entertaining - most poeple would rather watch a 10 minute entertaining run through a game showcasing a lot of neat glitches and mindboggling skill than watch a 2 minute run that uses a glitch to skip immediately to the final boss and finish with 30s of credits. That 2 minute run can be submitted on this site and is still completely accessible for everyone to download and view in the emulator, but hiding the entertaining run behind the crazy shortcut run on the site would be a poor choice - the published run would be ranked lower than the rejected/obsoleted 10 minute run could have had. That being said, I still think forward backwalking is okay to do or not do - entertainment value goes up, but speed goes down when it doesn't have to. I'm sure that decision won't affect this particular movie getting published with either decision.
Just my 2 cents. And guano, you have done a terriffic job with this movie and the last - amazing dedication to perfection. Good job! And same goes to everyone else finding glitches and planning routes.
By "completed," I meant the portion of the run that's been done up to the end of the latest WIP.
You can't hex-edit Mupen files, so to correct a previous mistake, you have to restart from the mistake and lose all progress that's been made since that point in the run.
This site's published movies do, IMO, need to be entertaining - most poeple would rather watch a 10 minute entertaining run through a game showcasing a lot of neat glitches and mindboggling skill than watch a 2 minute run that uses a glitch to skip immediately to the final boss and finish with 30s of credits.
"Entertainment" shouldn't be included in the criteria for the simple reason that it is a subjective evaluation.
None of you have obviously even tried the forwards backwalking. Let me end this very stupid argument already.
Forward-Backwalking is slower. Not just a few frames slower, but when you go around a corner or near a wall, the Forward-Backwalk ends. What I mean by ends is that it goes to a normal backwalk. Try it for yourself and you'll see what I mean.
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
fluffy kitten wrote:
None of you have obviously even tried the forwards backwalking.
I've 'forward backwalked', but I didn't apply it to rooms that don't even seem like they would need it.
When you say it's slower, do you mean by the rate of speed, or just in the case of bumping in to walls?
mwl, it's you who doesn't get it.
This isn't SDA + tools. This is a completely different website. I know all these new people popped up from SDA once your precious Zelda started getting worked on, everyone offering their mighty opinions and ideas. But you should really check out the purpose of this site, specifically the Why and How page.
Your type of complaints belong on SDA, not here. Arguing to take the less entertaining route at the cost of a negligible amount of time would normally bring you very few backers. This case is an exception because, well, this thread is pretty much isolated from the rest of the site. I'm curious as to how many frames are lost each time this new technique is used.
I think what bugs me the most is the attitude that most people on the thread seem to have - just because it's a Zelda game, it's automatically entertaining!! How DARE anyone say otherwise!
You know what I'd really like? I'd like to hear Guano's opinion on these various issues. He isn't required to give them, as we can see what he does by watching the run progress. But we certainly don't need you talking for him. If you do the TAS, then you choose how to do it, and then you can do it for "the other folks from the SDA OoT discussions".
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I'm with JXQ personally.
I think the forwards backwalk should be used for very long walking segments, not in cases where you'd hit walls or backwalk for like 2-3 seconds. Plus the alteration of both would keep it interesting. Neither should be used exclusively- use the normal backwalk where it's best and the forward backwalk in long, straight segments.
