Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Before doing King Zing Sting I looked a lot at Arne's DCK runs, and noticed that my enguarde movement may not be optimal. So, I decided to create a V9 ( I AM NOT RESTARTING) and saved 10 frames on the first level, by managing to do better rolls, and a few frames saved here and there. I think that with the frames saved in the rolls I can improve it by even more frames, but here's the WIP for V9. V9 is officially going to be the run that I use to obsolete V8- I'm going to submit V8 because I am almost finished with World 4 anyways and some of the improvements will require mastery of the backwards switch, of which I'm waiting for Arne to release his run for; plus I want to submit V8 so I can compare my V9 with every level, and I'll know what I'm doing because I'll have beaten the game. I might work on King Zing tonight or maybe tomorrow; assume all progress from here on is V8.
Pirate Panic V9
Edit: saved another 28 frames, overall 38 frames saved
Pirate Panic V9B
It is now Flawless, IMO. It cannot be improved upon any better than this to my knowledge. Made a few tactical changes- some that look slower but isn't (getting to bonus #1, instead of rolling down, sliding down) but others are noticably faster- getting to bonus #2, bonus #2 itself, and the dismount at the end I tested 3 different ways of dismounting and this is fastest. I am now determined to A) finish the run with V8 and B) obsolete it with V9.
Joined: 3/17/2006
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Location: Back to good old Germany
comicalflop wrote:
I am now determined to A) finish the run with V8 and B) obsolete it with V9.
Don't get me wrong. I love your work (well, you should know that by now) and if you keep the quality I will definitely give my yes. But some people have problems to do the same if you already know how to obsolete your run...
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Part of obsoleting my run is that I know there are tiny things in world 1 that can be improved, honestly beyond that I don't know of any major ones, it also hinders on the ability to 100% be able to do a backwards switch whenever, for uses throughout levels with walls, which I doubt is possible. Also I saved 38 frames in this one level, but I doubt I can do the same for the other optimized ones in world 1 and 2. I'll attempt to improve it only when I am done, and no sooner. And that would be a big feat on it's own, it's already been 1 1/2 month since I started V8 and I used almost 400 rerecords just on Pirate Panic (normally for levels that easy it is 150-200ish). as I stated earlier, obsoleting it will be a future product, WAY down the road.
To summarize: V9 is not until a few months/year after V8 gets submitted. I will not let the fact that V8 can be improved beforehand deter me from finishing it.
if we're talking about earlier improvements, I always had the impression you waited too long to charge the first bonus room as enguarde in the level you ride him
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
For that section, that is the first possible frame to charge into the bonus based on the way I moved- what I could do is in Lockjaw's Locker, hold Y and use Turbo B to optimize enguarde's stab for the fastest horizontal movement when not charging- I could have gotten much closer to the bonus and still found the first possible frame to enter, because his vertical speed does not change (or does it when stabbing?). But like I said earlier- way down the road.
I'm just gonna say that your v8 run looks very good. And your v9 looks even better. just a reminder that if you can save this many frames on only one level you could save many seconds in a complete run. maybe even a half a minute. Do as you wish, but this run will be beaten if you use v8. don't know when or by who, but it will.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
The most frustrating part about restarting is Kreepy Krow. There is no knowing if improving the 5 levels will net you a perfect frame or not- I had to not visit Funky Kong in V8 to get to Kreepy Krow earlier, and if I restart there's a possibility that when I reach Kreepy Krow I'll have trouble finding the perfect frame- I can potentially skip every Kong in world 1, but I'd have to redo the levels many times to land Kreepy Krow with the perfect frame. When I'm done with V8 I will beat it with V9, but I'm more willing to finish the run first instead of restarting again.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
One tool that is very useful that I never had before- Hex editor. with SNES Move Splicer I have that feature, and it's set in a format that I actually understand. and I'm working a little bit on V9; I don't know what it is but already I've saved 106 frames in Topsail trouble, and I'm about 2/3 done. With luck and careful studying (plus a few new small techniques) I've found ways to do some things faster. I'll take this up to Kreepy Krow and see what happens. If enough frames are saved and I get to Kreepy Krow on a perfect frame, then V9 is going to be the one published. That will probably set me back a month, but if the work is that improvable and I continue on this awesome saving frame spree than I will. If I hit a roadblock then I will finish the run with V8 and get to V9 later like originally intended.
another side-note- I hear about this tool called memory watch. What is it and what does it do? I know it has something to do with delving into the secrets of the game but could it have usefulness in finding the perfect frame for Kreepy Krow? or does it not work like that?
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
As arne wonderfully found out, the egg drops in Kreepy Krow are luck manipulated, so you can enter on the perfect frame to make the eggs drop the way you want to. I'm wondering if it's possible to find every available frame where all eggs drop on the first one. This would be very helpful so that I'll know which Kongs to skip and when, since evry single Kong appears on the way in future worlds then it's probably doable.
Although...
With my discovery of SNES Movie Splicer, I came to the obvious conclusion that I can take parts of V8 and add it to V9. I can do V9 all the way up to Kreepy Krow, test frames, and if it doesn't work hex edit in one kong and try again, and keep editing in Kongs until I get a perfect frame. So, I am going to work on V9, finish world 1 and try to get Kreepy Krow to work, and from there on I can splice levels that don't need improvement into V9 so that I don't have to redo them again. And I'll be making backups up the wazoo to test all sorts of different ways to do things faster, which I can edit into the movie. For instance, I can make one bonus in a level different, but kepe the rest of the level the same as in V8.
I know most other games that hex edit have to change the whole level, but since I'm doing bonuses I have more oppurtunities to edit portions in between bonuses, since a bonus is like the end of the level and you're position does not matter.
do you know whether it generates the result when you enter the level? if so, you could check that to see whether it's agreeable, otherwise you'd have to look at the frame counter the game uses and calculate to see whether it gives a good result. either way, you're going to have to find a memory address, which is something I don't know how to do.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Bob A wrote:
do you know whether it generates the result when you enter the level? if so, you could check that to see whether it's agreeable, otherwise you'd have to look at the frame counter the game uses and calculate to see whether it gives a good result. either way, you're going to have to find a memory address, which is something I don't know how to do.
I think I'm just going to play all the way to Kreepy krow, and do what I did last time was visit all Kongs (sans Cranky) and test the frames then, and if I get no good ones go back and take out Funky, and if that doesn't work I can copy the input for Topsail Trouble and edit out Swanky Kong as well.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Hm this splicing stuff os hard. when splicing It says for source movie what frame to start on and for target movie what frame to insert... assuming I have the exact frame that both movies are in the exact same position (like entering a bonus barrel) what do I enter for the frame start/ frame insert? I tried the frame number that they get there in the movie but I'm getting desynchs
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
It is off by one- usually when Diddy/Dixie barely hits an edge, I've tried two spots in Gangplank Galley and Lockjaw's Locker and that's where the desynchs usually occur. But I tried to alternate when making the splice to account for that, and still got nothing.
Gangplank Galley +Lockjaw's Locker V9
Gangplank Galley: 16 frames saved
Lockjaw's Locker: 9 frames saved
These levels were expectedly harder to improve. I'm pretty sure that Topsail Trouble is not improvable at all (except for bonus #1, but that's it), I might try to splice all of it onto V9. And once I get to Kreepy Krow I'll start testing frames.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I've found a pattern in that any move where Diddy lands on an edge and rolls right after, it makes desynchs occur. Why am I even bothering with this since that happens so many times in the movie in V8? I'm sure that I'm splicing the frame correctly; but still, I'd like it to not be doing this...
Plan: Get V9 (playing it, no using splicing) up to and beating Kleaver's Kiln, then splice it into V8 so that world 1-2 in V8 is improved. feasible? I'd really just like to leave it until months from now and continue with King Zing Sting where I left off, and finish V9 when I'm done with V8 (ensuring that it will be obsoletable, but not by anyone else.)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
World 4 done
Sorry this took so long, what with V9 getting in the way (not in a bad way) and getting caught up in the argument over at the Zelda 64 thread, I put off this boss fight. I'd say he was the easiest boss to TAS- Kreepy Krow was frustrating finding the right frame, Kleaver's Kiln took forever to mimic Arne's style, Kudgel was entertaining but extremely long. This one is fun, entertaining, and I believe hits King Zing Sting on the first (or firstest, pretty close sometimes) frame possible. Again, tried to be entertaining, so tried to get as close to him (not as lazy a hit detection as with kudgel) and nearly avoid death, as well as better placement of squawk's at the end to make the coin fall in less time. On to Gloomy Culch! looking foward to: Ghostly Grove, Gusty Glade, Fiery Furnace. Not looking foward to: Parrot chute Panic and Web Woods. Onwards and upwards! (because really the map does go up)
Quick Q: in Parrot Chute Panic there is a warp (has the same in warp banana setup.) Is this a bonus, does it count for 102% or is it just there? It's in the SDA run so I ask for clarity
If memory serves me correct, this warp barrel, like all warp barrels, don't attribute to 102%. Only the kremcoins and the DK coins attribute within a level.
Just watched this, and was thoroughly entertained. I'm most surprised by how fast these animal pals can move, with the exception of that retarded Snake. I also really liked the way you played with the barrels in the third level that requires 15 Kremcoins.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Joe wrote:
If memory serves me correct, this warp barrel, like all warp barrels, don't attribute to 102%. Only the kremcoins and the DK coins attribute within a level.
Thanks that will help. That level I'm really trying to figure out which Kong to use for that level and the next, web woods. I need to end web woods with Dixie, Diddy not nescessary, and I need to end Parrot Chute Panic with both kongs to utilize a skip over a hill before the Squitetr section. I'm thinking play as Diddy, with his rolling I think I can avoid one spot where Sami let's Diddy take a hit, or start as Dixie and play since her slowness is not affected when falling and can avoid death altogether. I'm thinking Dixie.. we'll see, 3 levels down the road, and Fiery Furnace is in between with Diddy needed so that'll complicate things.
JXQ wrote:
Just watched this, and was thoroughly entertained. I'm most surprised by how fast these animal pals can move, with the exception of that retarded Snake. I also really liked the way you played with the barrels in the third level that requires 15 Kremcoins.
I find your runs, specifically your SMW 11 exit one to be really entertaining and elite, so you complimenting my work on being fast and entertaining feels real nice (that plus all the other positive feedback I get.)
Those animals can move really fast- I wish though that Squitter could jump on enemies like in DCK3, that Rattler was actually useful/faster, and that sqauwk's hit detection wouldn't be so bad (the bottom of it is really nice to work with when he's holding kongs and floating above danegrous objects- see Bramble Scramble for extreme uses of this.) Toxic Tower and Animal Antics are going to be showing the animals to the extremes :P (hopefully in Animal Antics there might be a huge time saver by not changing back to Squitter in the bonus... I'll have to test that, if it works it'll save a lot of time when normally you'd have to be squitter.
Sorry for the really long post, it's late at night, I just finished World 4 so I'm all pumped, normally I'd rush ahead and complete two levels before sunrise but I'm starting to learn to take things slower, and sleep biology is important. Starting world 5 tomorrow, in between homework and family visiting.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Ghostly Grove
At the very beginning of the level, when I switch from Dixie to Diddy there is a Kloak barely visible above. It just sits there and does nothing- doesn't throw anything, and disappears after 15 seconds or so. weird.
Just like in Black Ice battle, the krocs can be rolled on if you land on them from above, and I utilize that to gain speed.
One thing I have noticed is that if you jump anywhere between 1/3 or 1/2 of your roll and by making a hard jump i.e. holding B, in midair you will accelerate to compensate for the speed you would have gained by rolling. I don't know if this is CPU related or not, but it's happened a few times so I think it's part of the physics engine, in the same way that the barrel boost is for DKC1.
The background of this level is amazing- if you look closely it has filtered sunrays penetrating through the branches, that move corresponding to your movement. As I've stated in the DKC3 105%, I'd love to get the chance to explore the awesome backgrounds of the DKC games.
finally got around to watching your progress since last weekend. Great work, but if we're talking about entertainment, why do you ignore that poor last banana in the first haunted hall bonus, and you could have gotten one minus barrel before the third bonus :P
Ok and v9 is insanely fast but I have a few questions:
1) why don't you roll at the start of the first bonus
2) rambi seems faster at killing enemies when he's on the ground so why do you jump BEFORE that crok, right before you continue without rambi.
3) in topsail trouble would you fall faster if you grab the DK koin later but didn't land after the jump (i.e. you go down from the jump so you don't have to gain downward speed from plain falling)
4) after the warp with dixie to the end of the level, I thought you used the hooks because they boosted you, but here you just glide. that's faster?
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
I'll probably redo the end of Haunted Hall, in the first bonus I wasn't aiming for getting all the bananas. I'll probably get the minus barrel before the third bonus. But not for a little while, I have a major headache and can't find any advil anywhere.
V9:
1) jumping at the first possible moment is faster, because I'm not trying to go horizontally but up those barrels, which are pretty close together. I roll for each barrel for bonus #1 in Rattle Battle, but here they are too close together
2) I jump right before that kroc to land the exact moment right before the barrel kroc so I can jump again. there is a 2 frame oppurtunity where jumping right before that kroc will let me land on that short amount of platform to jump again. anytime I'd hit the barrel kroc, I'd jump higher placing me very high when I dismount. I do it the way I do to land as close to the ground near the sign when I dismount. What you suggest is correct- when in the air, there is a small frame delay when he hits enemies, and there is no delay when hitting enemies on the ground. However, by running through the kroc I cant dismount the way I want to.
3) No I don't think so. the few frames it takes to hit the ground and slide down is faster than the extra frames it takes to set up what you're describing.
4) aesthetically it looks the same- I think that Arne, in his boss fight with Kleaver hovered, and since he pays close attention to such small frames saved that I did it too. I remember testing both, and for that particular stretch in Gangplank Galley I remember saving 2 frames by hovering instead of grabbing the hooks. Also, Sami avoided jumping on multiple enemies alot, because it works the same as grabbing the hooks- it slows you down by very small increments.
