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Religion will never go away in the sense of people 'forgetting' about it. Sure in 75 years entire mankind may be gone. Does that count? I guess not. Religion is in a constant change. Religion is there to explain things for people so they feel better about themselves and gives them a greater purpose than what they really have. So in order for the religion to keep their grip on people, the religion has to change and encompass the evolving values. Personally I'm not a religious person in the way most people expect from a religious person. I reject religion in the sense of explaining things in a way that defies logic, but I accept religion in the defining of ethics and judging of morality. Unfortunately, most of the world is too dumb to switch to my view.
adelikat
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I think Fabian's prediction is completely off base. 1) One positive aspect of humanity (no one ever seems to talk about positive elements of society especially on a global scale) is the tendency to ask question that can not be answered. No matter how much man can answer there will still be some things that can not. For this man will look to faith, or some sort of belief system to satisfy (at least temporarily) that which can not be answered. 2) Whether there is a higher power or not, you can not argue that man has a need for something higher than himself (herself). Religion quenches this thirst for many. 3) The prediction fails to take into account that the above mentioned organized religions are themselves evolving and changing allowing them to stay at least somewhat relevant in the current society. While this doesn't guarantee there indefinite survival, it does at least push that time scale to far longer than 75 years. In all likelihood, there will be some form of these religions in the distant future; they just may look different than they do today. 4) The premise behind the statement is that disappearance of these religions will make the world better. Those who believe this believe that they will disappear. Those who believe religion makes the world a better place disagree with the prediction. Those who are neutral probably care nothing of this discussion. As a result, this question like any other one where religion is concerned will comes down to religious and non-religious people arguing who is right.
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Bob A wrote:
That's not faith at all. Faith is a process of non-thinking whereby one accepts beliefs passed down through tradition with no evidence, or even against the evidence. None of those things require faith; they can demonstrated scientifically (through inductive reasoning), not to mention that they're all glaringly obvious. Also, in my view it's futile to speculate about whether reality "really" exists; we can perceive it, and that's all that matters.
I think he means the fact that any science relies on a system of assumptions (axioms) which are not (and can't be) necessary right or wrong by their nature, but still define the validity of all the consequent results. That said, to make a theory about something, we must rely on a given axiom, and that means we essentially must believe that the axiom is right.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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adelikat, most of the stuff you write is opinion stuff so there's nothing to argue about there (although I've covered the first two points in my earlier posts, so you know I don't necessarily agree too much about them), however: 4) No.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
adelikat
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I fail to see how 1), 2), and 3) are opinions. Especially 3). To try to say that religions haven't evolved over time only shows ingornance of said religions.
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Here's what I mean. I said (paraphrasing) "there's no longer a need for religion to explain the unexplainable" while you say "there is". Which is fine, we disagree slightly on that point is all. The fact that religions have evolved is of course not a matter of opinion. The effect of this upcoming evolving we can expect in the next 75 (or whatever) years, however, is. Or speculation or whatever, you know what I mean.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
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Then in your opinion fabian, how is the unexplainable explained?
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You didn't read what I've posted in this thread, did you? I quote: "As time has progressed since the time of jesus, people (I mean both every individual and, more importantly, society as a whole) has gradually become more well educated in all areas of life (scientific discoveries, better understanding of pretty much everything, etc). This development has been most significant in the past maybe 200 years, since the industralization. I think it's safe to say that in this period of time mankind has taken some pretty huge steps forward in terms of development. Arguably, 2000 years ago the primary reason for religion was the need to have something (a being, an entity, a force, or whatever) to explain all things which were unexplainable by contemporary science, everything ranging from death to lightning. Since then, religion has been extremely valuable for the people in power to scare people into obedience and keeping them in check. In the past maybe 150 years, the general education and understanding of things have increased, to a point where these reasons for religion does no longer exist to the same extent as they did 2000 years ago. There's no longer a need for an explanation of the unexplainable, and with Joe Everyman's education and understanding of the world now (compared to maybe 1000 years ago), there's no need to believe in something superhuman to explain our existence."
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
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It's true that religions evolve, but they only evolve to come closer in line with secular culture. The more this happens, the more religion loses importance, and the easier it is for people to deconvert. Evangelical christians, for example, sometimes wonder what the point of christianity is if significant chunks of it are thrown out, and I'm inclined to agree.
adelikat
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Fabian, the fact that religions evolve increases their "chance of survival". I think it is reasonable to think that will also increase their chance of survival in the future. My point is that this makes your prediction "weaker" in that it is much harder to reliably make such a prediction. also, Science will never obsolete religion but on the contrary it encourages it. Science relies on asking the unexplainable then attempting to explain it. As a result there will always be something left unexplained (unless you believe that perfect knowledge it obtainable). Religion in some form will always be there to deal with the unexplained.
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There are still many, many unexplainable things. Besides, people WANT to believe that there is something controlling the world, because if not, the world is running itself. People don't want to believe that they are living in anarchy.
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Main difference between a scientific theory and a religious theory is the fact that a scientific theory can be proven wrong, and a scientist will accept this. This is also why I think 75 years from now, or a lot longer from now the vast majority of organized religion in Europe and North America will still be there.
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DeFender1031 wrote:
Besides, people WANT to believe that there is something controlling the world, because if not, the world is running itself. People don't want to believe that they are living in anarchy.
This is subject to a paradigm shift. And there surely be many of those in this century. That's one of the reasons I partly agree with Fabian. Something will definitely change in the next 75 years, be it the organized religions themselves, their hosts or the mankind mentality in general.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
adelikat
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Bob A wrote:
It's true that religions evolve, but they only evolve to come closer in line with secular culture. The more this happens, the more religion loses importance, and the easier it is for people to deconvert. Evangelical christians, for example, sometimes wonder what the point of christianity is if significant chunks of it are thrown out, and I'm inclined to agree.
Interesting but I must disagree. For christianity at least, the belief that Jesus is the messiah and died for everyones since would be the main point. As long as that is the basis of a religion, it will be a form of christianity. The rest is far less relevant. This point in itself will prevent it from being watered down to the point of being indistinguishable from secular culture.
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adelikat wrote:
Fabian, the fact that religions evolve increases their "chance of survival". I think it is reasonable to think that will also increase their chance of survival in the future. My point is that this makes your prediction "weaker" in that it is much harder to reliably make such a prediction. also, Science will never obsolete religion but on the contrary it encourages it. Science relies on asking the unexplainable then attempting to explain it. As a result there will always be something left unexplained (unless you believe that perfect knowledge it obtainable). Religion in some form will always be there to deal with the unexplained.
Yeah, I don't disagree with anything here. I agree that it's tough to make this kind of prediction with any sort of accuracy, and accuracy is not something I'm claiming. I also agree that there will always be things that are unexplainable. However, I question that these unanswered issues/questions will be significant enough to people in general to warrant a religion like the big ones (christianity, judaism, islam, etc) we have now and have had for the past few thousand years, eventually.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
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i agree, religions do change subtly all the time. but for them to just disappear...they don't chang drastically enough to do that.
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People will eventually realise that some things are unknown, and the fakey religious explanations are unsatisfactory. I'm pretty sure that (organised) religion will die out eventually, though superstition and charlantry will probably live on forever in some degree. Prediction: Islam will be the last religion to die out, perhaps in a spectacular manner.
adelikat
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Why are we here? I doubt that will be explained anytime soon. And for most, that is a pretty significant question. More so, we want the answer to that to be important. This makes organized religions even more appealing.
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adelikat
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Question for those who think religions will die out. Are there any major religions that have ever died out in the past? and why did they? Answers to those question would certainly help make better predicitons in the future.
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yes of course... and all those that died out were polytheistic
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adelikat wrote:
Question for those who think religions will die out. Are there any major religions that have ever died out in the past? and why did they? Answers to those question would certainly help make better predicitons in the future.
I am of the opinion that history teaches us very little on this, since (I've said this before, just restating) it's in the past few hundred years people in general have started to become well-educated enough to not need superhuman explanations (etc, everything we've discussed in this thread).
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
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Islam is growing average 2,14% every year. Still no proves.
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adelikat wrote:
Interesting but I must disagree. For christianity at least, the belief that Jesus is the messiah and died for everyones since would be the main point. As long as that is the basis of a religion, it will be a form of christianity. The rest is far less relevant. This point in itself will prevent it from being watered down to the point of being indistinguishable from secular culture.
Even that doctrine is being watered down. Witness the growth of the idea of universal salvation.
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adelikat wrote:
Question for those who think religions will die out. Are there any major religions that have ever died out in the past? and why did they?
They did. It was either because their hosts died or because they were overtaken by another religion (usually monotheistic as DeFender pointed out). However, as most of the stuff happened very long ago, it may not seem as "major" by today's ranks.
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Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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Bob A wrote:
People will eventually realise that some things are unknown, and the fakey religious explanations are unsatisfactory. I'm pretty sure that (organised) religion will die out eventually, though superstition and charlantry will probably live on forever in some degree. Prediction: Islam will be the last religion to die out, perhaps in a spectacular manner.
I probably agree with this prediction by the way. The level of education/welfare/other fancy words in some islamic countries are lagging behind significantly compared to North America and Europe.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
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