I own this game and did some speedrunning with it on a console, but I was curious and decided to find out how much (theoretically) each level could be done faster.
So I started with Level 1 and ran each level just to see how low I could get the times. After escaping each level, I use the console's "9th button".
My run is NOT completely optimized at this point (2 levels for certain could be done a little faster). I mainly have been doing this as an experiment, not as a "super serious" TAS. The biggest problem is manipulating Black to go (or do) what you want him to.
Things about running the game to know:
1) All items and starting positions in each level are always the same.
2) You can NOT run through a room with Black in it while holding a single item. If you have a suitcase, it's "invisible" but when you leave the room you will have it.
3) Items that leave your hand will appear in the same room, if it has an empty holding spot (cabinet, picture frame, etc). This is most important for Level 5.
4) Time Bombs can be cleared by leaving the room (yourself or Black). However you can get through the room the following ways:
a) North-South
b) Any Right Angle
c) You can not make it through a time bomb room going down stairs, up stairs, or going West-East.
5) Everytime somebody changes rooms, the game pauses for a moment to change the opponent's room. This however doesn't happen if you enter a room with Black in it (or black enters your room) as you just switch screens.
6) If a trap is disabled or Black falls for a trap, you stop to laugh. However if you're on the stairs, you will NOT stop.
7) Dagger (Black weapon) > Club (White weapon). However stopping to fight generally isn't worth it, except in one level where I do it to get rid of black so I get get what he had in his hand.
8) However hitting Black instead of just walking past him does seem to cause his actions to change. I used this in Level 7 to keep him from following me.
9) You can NOT exit the level if Black is in the exit room (hence my problem with Level 1).
My run is not quite completely done. The movie is through Level 7 and prepared to start Level 8.
Uses Spy Vs Spy (U).
Present times (Console on the left, TAS on the right):
Lv 1 - 00:16 vs 00:17 (TAS -1 sec)
Lv 2 - 00:40 vs 00:36 (TAS +4 sec)
Lv 3 - 00:47 vs 00:43 (TAS +4 sec)
Lv 4 - 00:57 vs 00:50 (TAS +7 sec)
Lv 5 - 02:19 vs 02:09 (TAS +10 sec)
Lv 6 - 01:11 vs 01:14 (TAS -3 sec)
Lv 7 - 01:38 vs 01:32 (TAS +6 sec)
Lv 8 - 01:17 vs ??:??
Overall I'm presently 27 sec faster than my speedrun of this for times in all levels combined.
http://www.imamyth.com/temphost/SpyVsSpy_U.zip
Didn't Bisqwit make a TAS himself on Spy vs Spy? I think you can find it alongside other rejected time-attacks.
If you haven't watched it, it might interest you.
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
I doubt a death will be allowed for this game. The resets are kinda annoying, but having never played teh game I don't know how long those cutscenes last.
Run doesn't seem very attractive to people who never played it. Don't get me wrong here, but there's not a whole lot of room for improvement in matters of speed if you never fight (are you ever forced to?) and take the optimal route (is the route static, like, do you have to pick up the items in order etc?).
Anyways, any game deserves a speedrun, so go for it. But please, no dying :)
Since you don't have a level 8 movie yet...
Here's a comparison between my and Sig VG's level 1.
Sir VG is on the right.
http://bisqwit.iki.fi/kala/spyvsspycomp.avi (800 kB)
Difficult: Level 8 (max).
Completion time: 6163 frames (ingame time: 02:03)
Bisqwit: It didn't gain enough interest.
No wonder. This one is quite slow >_>;;
Funny though, I never remember seeing his submissions.
Views:
Level 1 was interesting.
Level 8 was certainly not optimal, death or not. Wise move to have cancelled it, honstly.
Best route for Level 8:
Grab tickets, W, N, S, N, upstairs, S, S, W, W (suitcase), E, E, N, W, (papers), N, downstairs (hopefully black has removed the bomb below), S, S, W, S, W, (key), E, N, W, N, E, (money), E, N, upstairs, S, E, N, downstairs, S, S, E, N, N, N, W, W, W, S, W, N, exit.
(This assumes black removes the timebomb in one room and doesn't move the money.)
I do have videos of my console runs posted on filefront: http://hosted.filefront.com/SirVG/1697242
Anyways, any game deserves a speedrun, so go for it. But please, no dying :)
Death will be required in Level 5. There is absolutely NO WAY around that time bomb.
I doubt a death will be allowed for this game. The resets are kinda annoying, but having never played teh game I don't know how long those cutscenes last.
Some like 30-40 seconds. And you'd have to see it after EVERY level.
I used to love the Commodore 64 version of this game. I'm not sure why (censorship?) but the NES version removes one of the best items/traps. A gun with a trip wire. You plant the gun in a normal hidable area (like under a TV, in a shelf, or behind a painting) and then place the trip wire on a doorknob. The enemy opens the door and it pulls the trigger.
The bucket of acid is still available. Only difference I guess is that the gun takes longer to plant, and you need a wire cutter instead of an umbrella to disarm it. But I still found it more fun. The C64 version had better music too :p
Oh, well. Since a C64 emulator with re-recording support won't be around any time soon, I guess this is the best option. The gun would probably be infeasible in a TAS because it takes longer than acid, anyway.
Either way, Spy Vs. Spy was always an awesome game. I always felt so evil when I'd leave the last item rigged with a spring trap right by the airport door. The black spy would try to grab it, get launched across the room, then I'd just walk up, take all his stuff and walk out the airport door.
Hmm.
The first four levels looked pretty optimal (although I noticed you use the old "press start every second frame" trick to start each level, rather than finding the exact first frame to start)
Level five seemed far from it. Dying seems like a huge waste of time in the long run, and actually fighting the black spy seems unnecessary too. Was that unavoidable? Luck manipulating the CPU spy into pouring a bucket of acid on his own head is priceless though :p.
Level five seemed far from it. Dying seems like a huge waste of time in the long run, and actually fighting the black spy seems unnecessary too. Was that unavoidable? Luck manipulating the CPU spy into pouring a bucket of acid on his own head is priceless though :p.
There is absolutely no way to get out of that room before the time bomb goes off, and you can't get black up there.
Also, that fight HAD to be done. While you can carry a suitcase of items through, carrying a single item is not possible. Granted the one item respawns on the route (the one black gets at the start and then loses respawns in the upper left, 2nd floor), maybe I should find out where the other one does. I see how you could say it was not optimal, but I'll experiment later.
The first four levels looked pretty optimal (although I noticed you use the old "press start every second frame" trick to start each level, rather than finding the exact first frame to start)
Like I said from the start, I wasn't going for ultra l33tness TASing. I'm a console player screwing around at this point.
Items always start in the same place. I've got it all mapped out, all 8 levels.
Items when "dropped" in a level with no storage place (like black's starting spot in Level 5) seem to have a definate pattern, but I haven't figured it all out yet.
I gave level 1 another go. For not knowing anything about TASing, I wound up within ONE frame of Bisqwit's Level 1 run when the level blacked out. Could have been faster if I could get Black out of the room faster as well as not bringing up the map. I'll have to keep playing with it.
Bisqwit Level 1 - 1401
Sir VG Level 1 - 1402
(Yes, I figured out how to use frame count and input display on my own. And frame advance. I'm learning a lot.)
I restarted again and this time I beat Bisqwit by 5 frames on Level 1. Too bad I still can't get Black to move faster out of the room :(
I'm through level 8 now, though certainly this thing is far from optimized.
Present times (Console on the left, TAS on the right):
Lv 1 - 00:16 vs 00:17 (TAS -1 sec)
Lv 2 - 00:40 vs 00:36 (TAS +4 sec)
Lv 3 - 00:47 vs 00:42 (TAS +5 sec)
Lv 4 - 00:57 vs 00:51 (TAS +6 sec)
Lv 5 - 02:19 vs 02:06 (TAS +13 sec)
Lv 6 - 01:11 vs 01:16 (TAS -5 sec)
Lv 7 - 01:38 vs 01:31 (TAS +7 sec)
Lv 8 - 01:17 vs 02:08 (TAS -51 sec...OUCH)
And frame counts through each level:
New vs Old
Level 1 - 1396 vs 1406 (New +10 frames)
Level 2 - 3980 vs 4013 (New +33 frames)
Level 3 - 6950 vs 7022 (New +72 frames)
Level 4 - 10336 vs 10446 (New +110 frames)
Level 5 - 16486 vs 16893 (New +407 frames)
Level 6 - 21545 vs 21827 (New +282 frames)
Level 7 - 27545 vs 27873 (New +328 frames)
Level 8 - 33694
And in regards to Level 5:
Level five seemed far from it. Dying seems like a huge waste of time in the long run, and actually fighting the black spy seems unnecessary too. Was that unavoidable?
As previously stated, that death is unavoidable due to the time bomb. As for fighting Black, it is ALSO unavoidable. I can not carry that item through, as it simply respawns in the room I leave, and in this case simply respawns back where it came from. Hence why I grab the club before the first death.
Level 6 is a bit of a problem with Black setting up a booby trap that just gets in my way. I got him to set if off himself, but it cost me some frames.
Level 8 I was having problems with. Black didn't remove the Time Bomb in the one necessary room, moved an item to an odd spot, then set a trap on a door in a goofy spot so I had to get him to remove it. Yet despite a slower time that Bisqwit's Level 8 run (his 2:03 to my 2:08) I'm still faster framewise (his 6163 vs my 6149).
This game is making less sense the more I play it.
http://www.imamyth.com/temphost/SpyVsSpy_U.zip
Present run.
Taking another fresh crack at this game from scratch.
I FINALLY GOT 00:16 on Level 1! I swear I didn't think I was ever gonna replicate my console feat again. ^^;;
Frame counts through each level:
v3 vs v2
Level 1 - 1314 vs 1396 (v3 +82) IGT - 00:16
Level 2 - 3813 vs 3980 (v3 +167) IGT - 00:35
Level 3 - 6755 vs 6950 (v3 +195) IGT - 00:42
Level 4 - 9931 vs 10336 (v3 +405) IGT - 00:46
Level 5 - 16185 vs 16486 (v3 +301) IGT - 02:05
Level 6 - 20993 vs 21545 (v3 +552) IGT - 01:12
Level 7 - 26986 vs 27545 (v3 +559) IGT - 01:31
Level 8 - 31644 vs 33694 (v3 +2050) IGT - 01:10
Level Notations:
Level 1 - A small stall is necessary in the top middle room, allowing black to spring the door. This allows me to then exit the level.
Level 2 - I need to drop the suitcase so I can get the dagger. I need the dagger to fight black as then I can get his item and the other item that's in the room we fight in.
Level 3 - Pretty much smooth as silk.
Level 4 - For some reason, Black did almost exactly as I wanted him to: He didn't pick up the papers or money bag. He did get the club leading to a few frames to have to maneuver around him at one point, but a lot of time was saved by not having to get the dagger and fight him.
Level 5 - Death, good fight. However Black set off a trap at a bad time, causing me to have to stop and laugh. *sigh*
Level 6 - Black had to set up a trap in the way (go figure) but with some manipulation I got him to set it off AND get on the ladder before I could laugh (with just frames to spare!).
Level 7 - Black was really stupid and fell for his own Time Bomb trap TWICE. IN THE SAME ROOM. The first time I was able to pause slightly so I would be on the ladder when he died (and thus not laugh). Second time was unavoidable laughter though.
Level 8 - I got Black to do what I wanted him to do...take out the one Time Bomb! This level went great.
Total Length: 08:47
Total IGT: 08:17
I just tested the game and I remembered that doing something like A followed by B should make a little jump in a fight... I think there were even a way to do a backflip too.
Anyway, I would love that someone try this game again.
I made some experience with left+right.. and this give some weird result and sometime getting stuck in a wall.
I'm sure that this game have even more potential, but I'm working with an another TAS now...
Yeah, we know about the L+R side effects - Bisqwit did that in his attempts a few years back.
The problem with this game was that my run wasn't rejected for being slow, but boring.
Is there a different port of this game that would make for a better TAS?
I know in the Commodore version there was an additional weapon. It was a gun that you would hide in a room and attach a trip wire to a doorknob. When the other spy would open the door, it would blast him. Sort of an alternative to the bucket. It doesn't really have any speed value, but it might make for a more entertaining run since you'd have one more alternative to the same few weapons.
I wonder if it would be more entertaining to do a silly 2P run, with well conceived traps, both foiling and falling for them. It could be kinda humerous.
*snicker*
Is there a different port of this game that would make for a better TAS?
There is ONE on sms and it seem to work fine on dega
But at this point I feel like the sir VG idea is very appropriate
edith: as long as black spy win this time!!!
