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Posted: 5/22/2006 11:39 PM
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Kitsune
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
I was talking about the Published movie.
Posted: 5/22/2006 11:46 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
That's the latest published one. BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE IS TOO LAZY TO FINISH A NEW RUN
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 5/23/2006 4:25 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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If you want to see a finished run of a game that no one else feels like doing, then it will probably be done the fastest if you do it yourself. I admit I'm too lazy to use Tornado for 40 minutes frame-by-frame.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 5/23/2006 10:56 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
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Posts: 5712
Well you don't know that you'll need Tornado the WHOLE time! And see, that's the tricky part.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 5/24/2006 6:24 AM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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I'm also too lazy to figure that out. But I have a feeling that it's always faster to keep Tornado, except for Dedede.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 5/24/2006 5:29 PM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
Are you sure Tornado is definitely faster than never using it? Because I remember that the run using Tornado was losing a startling amount of time at boss fights compared to the one with the Hammer (or the weaponless one, I can't remember which).
Posted: 5/24/2006 6:00 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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I'm not positive in every case, that's why I said I had a feeling. But comparing your run to Baxter's run shows that although you do lose some time, Tornado is powerful enough against bosses to render that irrelevant. The most likely exceptions that could benefit from the Hammer would be when there are several bosses in a row (7-2? I believe) or close together, combined with good opportunities to get Tornado or Mix again afterwards, and also with Dedede since there is no need for Tornado after him.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 5/25/2006 11:46 AM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I just want to say that Tornado doesn't keep it max speed all the time as you need to gain acceleration first. It will depend on how long the traveling room will be. There will sure be cases where the wheel (which keeps max speed all the time till you stop it) is a faster alternative but of course you have to calculate in the changing-ability times and possibilities to see if it's worth the change. This exactly will be a pain to figure out when TASing this game. As for the Boss-Tower or King Dedede the Hammer would definitely be the best choice since it does the greatest damage (together with Stone) which I think will be worth the switch. I think a improved TAS of this game will be interesting to watch in any case.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 5/25/2006 5:11 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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I think the only places where wheel might be faster overall are the places where the level is designed specifically for it. Also, it's surprising how powerful Tornado is against bosses. Certainly weaker than Hammer, but so much that it's obvious to me which bosses would benefit from it. Anyway, get to it, Bag!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 6/2/2006 9:41 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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I'm still deciding whether to have my computer shipped here.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 7/23/2006 4:47 PM
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spockybiemmichab
Joined: 3/17/2006
Posts: 243
Location: Back to good old Germany
Just in case someone is willing to improve the extisting run: I was just skimming the SDA forums and found this topic which contained a very useful advice.
On level 6-2, there is a hidden door directly above the door on the first screen. This lets you skip the first three bosses, but the remaining bosses are harder (they move faster). Note that the TAS does not use this strategy.
If this is true, it will save a lot of time.
Posted: 8/7/2006 1:43 AM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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I'm enjoying making this, but I don't think it's too fun to watch. What does everyone else think? 205 frames faster than nitsuja's tornado test run, and uses (U) (PRG0).
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 8/7/2006 4:34 AM
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CoolBumpty
Joined: 12/12/2004
Posts: 158
I liked it, though I haven't seen anything of the game since Bisqwit's original publication. Only the framerate lag bothered me a bit, but there's nothing to be done about that.
Posted: 8/7/2006 5:44 AM
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spockybiemmichab
Joined: 3/17/2006
Posts: 243
Location: Back to good old Germany
I liked the (mid-)boss fights, but I think the wheel was more entertaining during the levels. But damn, if it's the fastest way, then do it the fastest way! How much faster is this compared to Bisqwit's run?
Posted: 8/7/2006 6:00 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Hooray! Keep going! I want to see you Kirbyize the whole place!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 8/7/2006 9:53 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
Why does everyone run at the very beginning? It's faster to walk to that door. Anyway, it's looking really nice, I hope you continue.
Posted: 8/7/2006 10:01 AM
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Sami
Former player
Joined: 8/20/2005
Posts: 643
Location: Mikkeli,Finland
Looks really great. Please continue this ;)
Current Projects: ???
Posted: 8/7/2006 4:44 PM
(Edited: 8/7/2006 4:49 PM)
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qFox
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
Well.. wow... you convinced me :) Anyways, I was secretly working (continueing) on an improvement on Baxter's run but, even though it was faster then baxter, its clearly not the fastest way. Anyways, this was my run. I did actually finish world 1, but then I wanted to record it to avi and discovered a massive desync in 1.3.4, and, even stranger, it suddenly started with a saved game (how the hell that happened I dont know, but I'm quite certain FCEU screwed up there). Anyways, I took the liberty of computing times (was using the table to compare to baxter anyways) : numbers are in frames levels are in world.level.sub format first number is the first non-pitch-black frame second number is the first pitch-black frame thusly is the framelength computed number between parentheses note difference with baxter 1.1.1 baxter: 579 - 1222 = 643 mine: 578 - 1217 = 639 (-4) jxq: 469 - 1459 = 990 (+347) 1.1.2 baxter: 1242 - 1755 = 513 mine: 1237 - 1737 = 500 (-13) jxq: 1479 - 1946 = 467 (-46) 1.1.3 baxter: 1774 - 2336 = 562 mine: 1756 - 2339 = 583 (+21) jxq: 1965 - 2453 = 492 (-70) 1.2.1 baxter: 3109 - 3722 = 613 mine: 3111 - 3720 = 609 (-4) jxq: 3223 - 3749 = 526 (-87) 1.2.2 baxter: 3925 - 4524 = 599 mine: 3919 - 4512 = 593 (-6) jxq: 3959 - 4599 = 640 (+41) 1.2.3 (mini-boss, bomb) baxter: 4544 - 5239 = 695 mine: 4533 - 5237 = 704 (+9) jxq: 4620 - 5181 = 561 (-134) 1.2.4 baxter: 5258 - 5629 = 371 mine: 5256 - 5622 = 366 (-5) jxq: 5200 - 5544 = 344 (-27) 1.3.1 baxter: 6403 - 7045 = 642 mine: 6395 - 7036 = 641 (-1) jxq: 6315 - 6833 = 518 (-144) 1.3.2 baxter: 7065 - 7754 = 689 mine: 7056 - 7739 = 683 (-6) jxq: 6853 - 7338 = 485 (-204) 1.3.3 baxter: 7773 - 8160 = 387 mine: 7759 - 8143 = 384 (-3) jxq: 7357 - 7694 = 337 (-50) 1.3.4 baxter: 8180 - 8773 = 593 mine: 8163 - 8747 = 584 (-9) jxq: 7714 - 8229 = 515 (-78) 1.4.1 (mini-boss, freeze) baxter: 9515 - 9770 = 255 mine: 9486 - 9739 = 253 (-2) jxq: 8973 - 9305 = 332 (+77) 1.4.2 baxter: 9789 - 10330 = 541 mine: 9758 - 10299 = 552 (0) jxq: 9325 - 9831 = 506 (-35) 1.4.3 baxter: 10350 - 10738 = 388 mine: 10318 - 10704 = 386 (-2) jxq: 9850 - 10245 = 395 (+7) 1.4.4 baxter: 10758 - 11421 = 663 mine: 10724 - 11384 = 660 (-3) jxq: 10265 - 10895 = 630 (-33) 1.5 (boss, the three) baxter: 12222 - 13312 = 1090 mine: 12186 - 13276 = 1090 (0) jxq: 11694 - 12879 = 1185 (+95) jxq may I suggest you get tornado in 1.3.1? Where we get the hammer. You're loosing massively in 1.1.1 to get mix there. Also, how the helll did you start so fast? Your start is 110 frames faster then ours, and I spent quite some time attempting to get the fastest start. Congrats on that one. Anyways, looking here saved me some time because I was going to create a quick global testrun with the tornado, to see whether the difference was noticable. With some tweaking, I now really do believe world 1 can be done under 210 seconds (12600 frames). I read your comments about the run being interesting. I agree that the run could be more interesting if you used all types of skills, but I don't agree that a pure speedrun would not be nice to see, even if it's mostly tornadospamming :) (Note for instance that the tornado screws you up in 2.5.something, where you have to go up) Bag, get on it! :)
qfox.nl
Posted: 8/7/2006 4:46 PM
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qFox
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
Oh right, forgot the movie
qfox.nl
Posted: 8/7/2006 5:11 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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I start faster by using a soft reset on Frame 5(?). This brings up the title screen faster. By your measurements, I am 93 (203 - 110 for soft reset) frames ahead after 1.3.1. If I got tornado in 1.3.2 instead, I would be tied with your run (at best), plus losing time here to mix, and I'd have the same power. So although it's slow looking to mix in 1.1.1, it is worth it over the next couple levels. I'm not sure what else to tweak. Walking to the first door is apparently faster (d'oh) and I also just found an example by Baxter that gets Tornado a bit faster than I do here. This game's optimization is not always very logical due to the lag, but I'm sure you know that. And I hope that other powers speed things up even if only for a few parts. Personally I think your run is more fun to watch, but I am enjoying making mine, so I think I will continue.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 8/7/2006 6:31 PM
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qFox
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
Yeah I have a feeling lag is your greatest enemy here. One of the few games where the weapon of certain enemies are in fact hostile for speedrunners. I've discovered, creating this run, that the game is very unpredictable. I've found myself trying certain tricks and discovering different speeds on different locations. Very annoying. There were times where I was convinced my way _should_ be faster, but doing something "stupid" proved to be the faster way for that part (looking at Baxter's movie of course). I'll say one thing, it's easier to improve a great run, then to create a good one, for this game. Oh and what really gets me some times are enemies that don't use their powers one time, and when I finally manage to match and improve Baxter's speed, they use it to nullifiy my improvement (happened three times!). That really gets me some times. Anyways, I was thinking of a double challenge... One run where anything goes, a pure speedrun One run where nothing goes, you're not allowed to take any weapon (except for boss 6 and staff of power obviously) I was thinking of a run which had to show every weapon at least once, but that may have to be extended to "for at least one complete level" because otherwise you'll just get them quickly, take your loss and tornado the rest (where-as it's kinda hard to "fix" the time lost on an entire level). I also didnt write down the times in between levels, but on all occasions I match baxter or beat it by one frame. Dunno how precise you were on this tornado run... How long did it take you to create it anyways?
qfox.nl
Posted: 8/7/2006 6:47 PM
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qFox
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
Actually, for that "nude" run, allow it to accept the use of "throw", or perhaps some other skills that dont give you any speed (so sword and hammer are out as well). I'm voting Throw in because it's very powerfull but still requires you to wait at (mini)bosses, other then that its not much different from being nude (suck and blow). Oh yeah that tornado speedup in the water trick looks great! As for 2.5, the last part almost demands you use hi-jump. For starters, you will loose a massive amount of frames. Secondly, theres a bomb at the top that will drop unless you're fast enough. Not killing it means taking damage. I asume you want to prevent this, and there's no such thing as a shield in kirby :p (unless, perhaps, stone, but thats a different skill anyways). And there was another point i wanted to make, but i forgot :p
qfox.nl
Posted: 8/8/2006 9:41 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
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qFox wrote:
Dunno how precise you were on this tornado run... How long did it take you to create it anyways?
Well I did lots of planning for about a week a long time ago, which I still had. I spent about 3 days on the first world. I would guess it's not quite as precise as yours, but I also think using Tornado is easier to optimize than normal running, jumping, etc. And yes I think 2.5 will benefit more from the Hi-Jump than Tornado. The testing will begin soon!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 8/8/2006 11:21 PM
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qFox
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
I agree, the jump/slide/running is a tedious job to optimize, especially for kirby (with lag and all). Also, since there's only so much control to the tornado, I expect the margin for loosing frames becomes looser... right? Good luck on it. I'm afraid my runs would more be a copycatkindofrun. If you look at my run and baxter's run they look very alike (even though I really did try out alternative ways, most of the time he simply had the fastest way, walking that is).
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Posted: 8/9/2006 7:55 AM
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Xkeeper
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LOSE / LOSING NOT "LOOSE", "LOOSING" Sorry, but that is the #1 way to make me go ballistic. I hate it when people mangle that.
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