Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
NrgSpoon wrote:
This I won't be doing though, because OoT uses 60fps for more than just the parts you mentioned. For example, I believe all the fadeouts to white and other full screen effects still run at 60.
What? OoT runs at 20 fps!
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Bisqwit wrote:
This I won't be doing though, because OoT uses 60fps for more than just the parts you mentioned. For example, I believe all the fadeouts to white and other full screen effects still run at 60.
What? OoT runs at 20 fps!
Actually, I just checked. the subscreen pause menu is 30fps and will look jerky at 20fps (though, he moves around in the pause screen maybe a total of 30 seconds throughout the entire run so far?) I'm trying to make a video of just the spirit temple. I'll try 40fps so that normal 20fps movement is fluid and every subscreen frame is visible.
Edit: it's done and it looks and sounds quite perfect. I'll put it on yousendit later.
I don't see the interest in decimating frames ; if the encoding codec is good enough, the compression between two consecutive equal frames will be perfect, ie the codec will compress the video at its maximum, whatever the framerate is... decimating frames will reduce size, but the gain would be minimal and the quality, inferior.
on a side note : ok it's the fastest, but the backwards movement gets old quickly for me. I belong to the majority of players who never played this game, thus can't guess where Link is heading, and it's annoying.
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
the backwards movement gets old quickly for me. I belong to the majority of players who never played this game, thus can't guess where Link is heading, and it's annoying.
on a side note : ok it's the fastest, but the backwards movement gets old quickly for me. I belong to the majority of players who never played this game, thus can't guess where Link is heading, and it's annoying.
Well, that's just too darn bad, in certain areas, such as going from korkiri to hyrule, is can save 30 seconds to a minute, and overall in the run it may have already saved a half hour off of rolling with the korkiri boots.
This is just one of those things that's not too major, and it makes it faster so we'll keep backwalking.
on a side note : ok it's the fastest, but the backwards movement gets old quickly for me. I belong to the majority of players who never played this game, thus can't guess where Link is heading, and it's annoying.
Seriously, quit complaining, n00bs.
And why the heck would you be watching a run of a game you haven't even played?
I guess opinions don't count unless they coincide with the masses. My bad.
The point of the video is to go as fast as possible. not backwalking would make the run 25% longer. Also on a forum like this, and with a game like ocarina of time, I'm afraid "people who have not played it" is a minority. And even people who have played it wouldn't know where he's going since it's done COMPLETELY out of order. Did people complain that the zelda 2 tas was hilariously incomprehensible with its glitching?
Anyway here's the spirit temple vid. My first time doing this, and I only picked up x264 last week but it came out ok I think. 13 minutes long, 40fps, 512x384 (shrunk from captured 640x480 with antialiasing 2x), white pause replaced using freezeframe() like I mentioned a page or two ago. I also tried to make the file as small as possible without looking ugly.
http://rapidshare.de/files/27362583/spirit-tas.mkv.html
Feedback would be nice :)
I thought the [Zelda 2] run was a lot funnier than if it hadn't been glitched to death.
You say this, but then come down on those who say that they'd like the Ocarina of Time video better without the backwards walking.
Whoops, read your quote wrong. Sorry, please disregard.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Nah, sorry, I never played OoT (never owned a Nintendo console later than the NES), and I don't think it's the bees' knees either. It probably is a really good game if you've only played other Zelda games.
On a slightly less flammable note, would it be possible to do some kind of camera hack to show the 'correct' direction? I know something like this is being done for a different game. I don't know if it would be possible, or if it would throw off timing.
It'd probably be really hard, considering cameras in 2d (just an x and y coordinate) are a lot easier to manipulate than cameras in 3d (x, y and z and also a direction vector)
My only point is that people are allowed to not like the video. It's not a personal attack on anyone (I'm not calling anyone a "n00b"). I noticed that Guanobowl never gets pissy when people express these kind of opinions.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
on a side note : ok it's the fastest, but the backwards movement gets old quickly for me. I belong to the majority of players who never played this game, thus can't guess where Link is heading, and it's annoying.
Seriously, quit complaining, n00bs.
And why the heck would you be watching a run of a game you haven't even played?
I may be a total oot (or even n64) noob, but I'm not full of myself. looking at other people from above, as if you were superior, doesn't make you any better than me or anyone.
you might have lost of sight the purpose of this site.
a lot of people, like me, enjoy watching games done a way they could never achieve in real life (and this is true for both assisted and not). movie makers, speedrunners are, at least in my conception, kind people ready to offer a show normal people couldn't do by themselves, not for themselves.
please show more respect to the audience, as without audience, the site wouldn't exist, except for the ego of the players, which I hope, and sincerly think, is not the case.
I never owned any of the consoles (except GB) on this site, it does not make me less interested in watching movies, in fact I'm always thankful to the players who show me games I never played or even heard about, in a funny or spectacular way. if it surprises you that much, I suggest you try watching games you don't know, it's pretty amazing.
as for oot : I don't see why I would not have the right to post my opinion, and we may discuss in a more civilized manner. I totally respect that, since a faster movie would obsolete this one, it HAS to be done as fast as possible, even if it has drawbacks, like killing the entertainment, and I even admits that it "adds" to the wtf factor. I was just complaining that some parts were boring, not that it had to be redone, sorry if it was misunderstood.
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Well, if you haven't played the game before, this run won't help you out very much in understanding the game. So many things are skipped (mainly 2 and a half dungeons plus two mini dungeons) and things are done so out of order that you can't really get a sense of the game from it. Being able to see in front of you wouldn't help out too much in getting more from the video if you haven't played the game.
So unfortunately this is a game where, when taking the path that has been chosen, won't give a real sense of how the game is supposed to go to those who haven't played it before (like Shiek teaching Young Link a song), so I think that for this type of run it's best to just go all the way and go for all the techniques that save the most time.
If you'd like to get an idea of how the game goes, it would be good to see TSA's run on SDA. It does a pretty good job of following the plot. The only main skip is the Lens of Truth being skipped, along with that mini dungeon, but that's not a big deal. http://speeddemosarchive.com/OcarinaOfTime.html
Edit: And believe me, seeing Hyrule Field with Link rolling forwards isn't much more entertaining. Even for someone who hasn't played the game before, it's probably more entertaining for Link to backwalk instead, especially since it saves a lot of time, and since there isn't the rolling yell that gets about as annoying as the one heart left noise can get. So don't worry, it's not forcing you to miss out on much.
I don't see the interest in decimating frames ; if the encoding codec is good enough, the compression between two consecutive equal frames will be perfect, ie the codec will compress the video at its maximum, whatever the framerate is... decimating frames will reduce size, but the gain would be minimal and the quality, inferior.
Have you (or any other encoder) actually tried to encode the same sequence at 20 fps and at 60 fps with the same quality, and compared the sizes? That'd give good numbers for proper judgement of the issue.
AzHP wrote:
It'd probably be really hard, considering cameras in 2d (just an x and y coordinate) are a lot easier to manipulate than cameras in 3d (x, y and z and also a direction vector)
the sonic camhack had one flaw: it required every frame to be calculated twice, and it required to save and load one savestate each frame.
try that with mupen, and the result will crawl slower than the guy who had his wheelchair stolen. There's also the bug with savestates sometimes causing desyncs, so having a lot of them won't do any good. Last but not least, the logic for this cam-hack would be more complex than the one for sonic: this one should change the camera only when backwalking. How should the hack decide whether the player is backwalking for a long way or just backing out of a battle for a couple of frames? sorry, but it's technically not feasible at the moment.
like CoolBumpty said: If you want an OoT-movie where you see what's going on, try one of TSA's older speedruns, they're good.
Joined: 12/2/2005
Posts: 139
Location: New York, United States
As far as techniques to save time go, back-walking in my opinion is a hell of a lot less disorienting than some of the stuff people do to those poor old NES games.
What's a man like me supposed to do with all this extra savoir-faire?
How about this...
if you hate the run and think it's boring because it backwalks, just vote no on should it be published when the final run comes out, and down't watch the WIPs, because if you dislike backwalking you aren't going to like the WIPs very much.
on an unrelated note: I am going on a 20 hour car trip to yellowstone today, I'll be back in two weeks, good luck with the run, I can't wait to see the progress once I get back.
I'll have to admit, on a personal level, I'm not a huge fan of the backwalking either (even though I've played the game and know exactly where Link is going).
But it's faster. And it is no more annoying than walking/rolling FORWARD the entire time; and doing it forward would be slower. What's wrong with seeing LESS transportation time between point A and B?
Doesn't the backwalking give some new perspective on things too? Everyone usually plays games forward, and playing them moving backwards is a slight change of pace, is it not? You may be seeing the same things as you did moving forward, but you see them from a different point of view, so to speak.
Besides, if you've never seen/played the game before, you wouldn't really know where Link was going even if he moved forward, wouldn't you?
Disliking the backwalking is a matter of opinion; no one HAS to like it. But don't judge the run based on one thing you don't like about the run, when all the other tricks used are 10x cooler and more than make up for the "boring" backwalking.
One of the goals for like every run on this site involves completing the game as fast as possible. Seeing how even WITH all these time saving glicthes, this game is still a bit long; so the backwads walking VS normal walking saves a SIGNIFICANT amount of time.
So if you guys don't like the backwalking that much, then don't watch the run. You may not like it, but it is NOT going to make this or any future run omit the use of it.
But don't judge the run based on one thing you don't like about the run, when all the other tricks used are 10x cooler and more than make up for the "boring" backwalking.
But see, backwalking is present throughout the run in large quantities. The other tricks are sprinkled in small doses throughout, and some are not as noticeable (if you haven't played through the game). On the other hand, everyone can see that Link is walking backwards. So I don't think this is a fair comparison.
Takarifreak wrote:
So if you guys don't like the backwalking that much, then don't watch the run. You may not like it, but it is NOT going to make this or any future run omit the use of it.
I'm not saying backwalking should be omitted, and even if I was, that would be a laughable "request". There is no solution for me. But I still will watch the entire run when it is submitted and vote my opinion. If people only watched runs in the submission queue they knew they would like, then why have the submission process in the first place?
notBowen wrote:
As far as techniques to save time go, back-walking in my opinion is a hell of a lot less disorienting than some of the stuff people do to those poor old NES games.
I disagree with this statement in the general case. While there are specific examples of some very game-breaking movement (Zelda 2, Mega Man), most games with different ways of movement to save time are affecting the visuals of the main character sprite and nothing more. In a 3D game, a different style of movement is more prone to affect the visuals of everything because of a different camera angle (see Goldeneye). Backwalking in Aria of Sorrow may be somewhat annoying, but it doesn't block out the half of the viewing area that most would consider more interesting.
I should point out that I wouldn't enjoy the run much more with forward walking / rolling. (I guess I should also point out that I've played through this game before, although it was years ago.) To me, the hugeness of the main field is anti-conducive to a speedrun, tool-assisted or not, of this game.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
