Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico
You cannot make it back to the castle w/o the owl in time before the bridge comes up. The owl saves us from Night/Day time transitions by taking us from LH --> HF(In front of the Castle) in 15 seconds of walking in LH. That leaves 30 seconds. to get to the moat and do whatever. I Honestly Truly do not want to do ALL of that over again. I am in Jabu right now and would be cutting out a lot of hard accomplished stuff so far.
Lets say I did do Jabu right after the bottle, we're talking about a gamble. My last try after Jabu, I got on the ledge of the boost maybe a second after the wolf howl. Time will be different at different frames you enter each place if you havent noticed. If you enter 60 frames later, it could make it A LOT shorter or just a little bit longer for the wolf to howl. Its a big gamble but if pulled off with a margin of a second, then I would be impressed.
Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.
1. Is the Well really faster than Bombchu Bowling?
Bombchu Bowling requires three goals, and each bombchu can be released before the previous wall has completely destructed. With any luck it can be done in under 1'30". Plus, the ground jump saves at least another 30". Having seen videos of the Cucco Dive on Youtube, I'd estimate that at least two minutes are needed for the diversion (begin with cornering the Cucco).
Don't forget, that in my route, going to the well is on the way to Kakiro, which is an added bonus. Well, you could say the same thing about Bombchu bowling (that it's on the way to ToT), except you are left with no bombchus before you bowl (in other words, bomb boosting owl dialogues are impossible due to limited capacity of bombchus). I know for certain that the owl in the river can be skipped (on a return trip).
mwl wrote:
2. How much time is wasted by going to Dodongo's the conventional way?
Going to Dodongo's through the village gate is much slower than going through the Lost Woods because of the 1-2' guard dialogue (none of which can be fast-forwarded) and the overviews of each area that you're forced to watch when you enter them for the first time through their main entrances.
Fine, then ammend my route to this:
Child Spirit - Death - Links House - Hyrule Field - bombchu boost past owl (if possible) -Lake Hylia - Fishing - Gold Scale - Bottle - Zora's Domain - Jabu Jabu - Warp to Lake Hylia (from the river outside ZD) - Hyrule Castle (through owl @ Lake Hylia) or if you have time, through the river, skipping the owl dialog - Zelda - Well (get bombchus), Death outside Well - Link's House - Lost Woods - Goron City, - Death Mountain - Dodongos - Great Fairy.
I can't see how that's faster, than my previous one. But if you say so :). I guess the keaton guard is a slowpoke. But just remember, I'm already in Kakiro Village to begin with...
We could skip the owl in the Lost Woods too if we use the ammended route (either way it's all good).
mwl wrote:
You'll want to do the seamwalk on DM Trail anyway, because climbing the skulltula wall takes quite some time.
Didnt' realize that. This only means more bombchus for us :). Using my route, we have 20 bombchus to use (well 19, since 1 bombchu is used to blow up another bombchu treasure chest). It would make a no bombs single segment speedrun feasible!!
I'm assuming we can kill KD w/bomb flowers since we have the silver gauntlets? Which doesn't make any sense to me, but oh well :) This is the whole reason why we did the spirit temple, right?
If not, don't we need to get Saria's song and the power bracelet? (that's not in the TAS route in your sig). If we do have to do this, having an extra bombchu for the forest meadow skip would be awesome! That's more than another minute saved! mwl wrote:
3. Can the Castle Courtyard be reached in time?
The biggest bet is the river and the trek across Hyrule Field. You don't know if the castle gates will be open when you make it there. Otherwise, Zora's River downstream (you can skip the owl) + the short trek to Hyrule Castle should be faster than backwalking all the way to Lake Hylia and to the owl.
You don't backwalk to Lake Hylia! ROFL, you take the warp from ZD to Lake Hylia!! Then take the owl to Hyrule Castle. Or am I missing something? This faster than the river route (maybe if we can't skip the river owl), and time doesn't advance at all (well it does for a few seconds). And since it will be Noon, when you exit Jabu Jabu, it will still be around Noon (my estimate is 12:30pm) when you get to Hyrule Castle because you didn't backwalk.
Even if you don't go to the well, this should still be used (unless taking the river is possible, faster, and we have enough bombchus).
The only flaw that might occur is that the owl never appears. I hope that doesn't happen :(.
All in all,
Big advantages (independent of going to the well): We could get the gold scale/bottle, and then directly go to ZD/Jabu Jabu. Then go to Hyrule Castle via Lake Hylia warp/owl. We save at least 1 traversal of Hyrule field. It SHOULD be done regardless if you go to the well or not, unless you want to take the risky Zora River to Hyrule Field to Hyrule Castle route, which caused us MAJOR problems a few weeks ago.
Big advantages (if you go to the well): You have more places to skip dialogues due to a greater capacity of bombchus.
Disadvantages: We don't know if the owl appears. We don't know if it's really faster, although on paper it looks faster. I'm a dumbass, and missing something obvious.
Irrespective of going to the well or not, I feel that we are going across Hyrule too many times.... And my route saves us 1 trip.
The only major problem that we might face (if my route is 100% correct and that's a big IF) is dying because of lack of health. So we might want to pick up a heart or 2 along the way.
Big advantages (independent of going to the well): We could get the gold scale/bottle, and then directly go to ZD/Jabu Jabu. Then go to Hyrule Castle via Lake Hylia warp/owl. We save at least 1 traversal of Hyrule field. It SHOULD be done regardless if you go to the well or not, unless you want to take the risky Zora River to Hyrule Field to Hyrule Castle route, which caused us MAJOR problems a few weeks ago.
No, J-J -> ZD -> LH -> Owl warp -> HC is what caused major problems.
J-J -> ZD -> ZR -> HF -> HC was never tested and may cause problems too. As Guano said, it's a gamble either way.
Big advantages (if you go to the well): You have more places to skip dialogues due to a greater capacity of bombchus.
What makes you think that having bombchus implies that you can skip owl dialogues? Most of them aren't triggered off of floors.
Here are all the owl dialogues in the current route, in order of appearance:
1. Hyrule Field from forest. Cannot skip.
2. Spirit - Silver Gauntlets. Cannot skip.
3. Lake Hylia - Warp to castle
4. Hyrule Castle grounds - Cannot skip.
5. Lost Woods - in front of Goron City warp - Can fast-forward with B.
6. DM Trail - Warp to village
What makes you think that having bombchus implies that you can skip owl dialogues? Most of them aren't triggered off of floors.
Did I say owl dialogues? I just said "dialogues". This could mean Navi dialogues too...
I don't understand:
No, J-J -> ZD -> LH -> Owl warp -> HC is what caused major problems.
Did you take the warp from ZD to LH in this route?
How should it cause problems if you take the warp? Do we really need around 12 hours (game time) to get into Hyrule Castle? Time doesn't flow in ZD and LH (well it does, but you are talking to the owl). That leaves us from a bit past Noon to midnight (or does the sun not set at midnight) from the HC to the princess courtyard.
Maybe the sun does set at 6pm? I dunno.
I'm just throwing around ideas.
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 317
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
where is the link for the AVI?
Every time the owl appears I got scared, it had already desynched at the owl after getting the silver gauntlets, now it have desynched after the owl in hyrule castle =/
Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico
Now, let discuss heart pieces.
Will my heart pieces fill back up to 3 when I enter the ToT?
And about the boss in DC, am I going to attack him with bombs or stick and sword?
Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.
Such as...? There aren't any Navi texts in the current route that could be skipped using ground jumps or explosive boosts as far as I know.
How should it cause problems if you take the warp?
It becomes sunset shortly after entering the castle grounds. It takes a bit of time to travel to the owl from the LH-ZD warp.
Will my heart pieces fill back up to 3 when I enter the ToT?
I don't believe so, but you'll get a refill from the Great Fairy.
And about the boss in DC, am I going to attack him with bombs or stick and sword?
You have to grab the bomb flowers on the four corners and toss them into his mouth. After a few seconds he will be stunned. At this point you can jumpslash him with your last Deku Stick. (Or, if you can fit one in without losing time, do a "missed jumpslash" with the stick and crouch stab him when he's vulnerable.) He will now roll around the room and try to flatten you--just get out of the way. When he opens his mouth again, repeat all of the above, except this time around you will need to do a crouch stab. He should be dead after two attacks in total. Don't pick up the heart container and enter the blue portal as early as you can.
Summary
Attack cycle 1 (4 dmg):
Toss bomb - stun
(Missed jumpslash/crouch-stab if you can do without losing time)
Otherwise do stick jumpslash
Attack cycle 2 (4 dmg):
Toss bomb - stun
Crouch-stab
This shouldn't be a difficult concept to understand...
How to do "missed jumpslashes"
1. Z-target the foe
2. Whip out your stick
3. Put a bit of distance between you and your enemy
4. Press A to do a jumpslash
Since you're too far away, you'll perform the attack but it will miss. However, the attack power of the jumping stick attack (4 dmg) is still preserved when you do a crouching stab.
See this video for a demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zYbaVb31co
Notice how I missed Ganondorf on the initial jumpslash, but was still able to take him out with a sufficient number of low stabs.
The optimal time to do the "missed jumpslash" on King Dodongo will be between the time when he swallows the bomb and the time when the bomb explodes and he becomes vulnerable.
It's just that if you have time you can do a jumpslash with a deku stick that doesn't hit anything, then afterwards do a crouch stab. That should do as much damage as hitting him with a deku jumpslash, and it has the benefit of not wasting a deku stick, though I don't think it'll matter at that point, so it doesn't really matter. You can just hit him with the deku stick on the first go around just for show. =P
Well, Guano, if you don't plan to do the stick/sword alternating trick during any of your backruns, you might as well forget about the "missed jumpslash" thing and just use your last stick on King Dodongo.
You're not going to need sticks again in the child portion, and you can't use them in the adult portion.
Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico
Is there no way to get past the owl dialogue in the Lost Woods? I CAN fast forward through his dialogue though. Once I get to Goron City or maybe Dodongo's Cavern, Ill post the WIP. I beat Barinade with 3 minutes left under an hour, I did the missed jumpslash and now know what you mean. It took me a while to figure out(I know, I'm retarded)
Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.
Is there no way to get past the owl dialogue in the Lost Woods? I CAN fast forward through his dialogue though. Once I get to Goron City or maybe Dodongo's Cavern, Ill post the WIP. I beat Barinade with 3 minutes left under an hour, I did the missed jumpslash and now know what you mean. It took me a while to figure out(I know, I'm retarded)
Nice progress :). You beat that dungeon in 2 days! Looking forward to seeing it!
Now a bit of bad news. It turns out it's faster to break the deku tree up into segments. You save-warp right when you get the slingshot. But your deku tree run was a bit rough (no offense), so this is just info for future runners :).
I credit Yautja and TSA for finding this out (and mayocheese for testing this on a console).
Yes, I said mayocheese ;).
Even if savewarping at the slingshot is faster, there isn't a way to record it given the current limitations in Mupen64. Thus, whoever makes the successor to Guano's run should wait until Mupen64 (or another emulator with re-recording functionality) can record resets and load the subscreens without five-second delays. Hopefully, many new timesavers will have been discovered by then...
I haven't heard of a way to skip the owl dialogue from that side. (It is possible to skip him entering from the forest, though.)
So 57 minutes after Barinade...do you think you can pull the Master Sword before the time exceeds 75 minutes?
Joined: 7/4/2005
Posts: 714
Location: Albuqueruqe, New Mexico
Possibly.
Tested and worked perfecto. Im left with 1/4 heart this will mean I will have 3 when becoming an Adult, correct?
I didnt include a savestate, Im very very sorry, I will next time.
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=316C310021F3E47F
Up to Dodongo's Cavern. Check out my Re-records :)
Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.
Possibly.
Tested and worked perfecto. Im left with 1/4 heart this will mean I will have 3 when becoming an Adult, correct?
I didnt include a savestate, Im very very sorry, I will next time.
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=316C310021F3E47F
Up to Dodongo's Cavern. Check out my Re-records :)
Looks good. I didn't play it from the beginning (yet), as I played it from a previous save state I had (I attached it in a previous post).
It didn't desynch from there.
