I think the movie description is just fine as it is now. It is long enough to notice and if people will care to read it carefully they will simply pause the video (it shouldn't be that difficult). I'm against the increasing of the description length in the movies because of the known reasons (larger file size, bittorrent etc.) and Gigafrosts good points about it.
Warp wrote:
I believe that it would be a rather illuminating experience for these people to try to make a TAS of some existing run in this site to see if they can make it even close. For example megaman1 would be a rather illustrative example. Perhaps then they could see that it's not as easy as they think but requires tons of work (in some cases it might even require more work than an acceptable unassisted run, at least for an experienced runner).
Very true. Some people will never realize this until they try high quality TASing themself.
Well I'm no leader of the unassisted speedrunning community, but I have a couple of runs on SDA and I figured I should throw my opinion in, even if it isn't well-written.
Like Kennyman666 said, please don't view Nate's opinion as representation of the speedrunning community as a whole. He never really consulted with anyone when making his TAS solution post.
I do agree with adding a little more text to the description of every TAS video, like Boco's example. I know there are people who won't read anyways, but there are probably a couple of people who will read the disclaimer, yet wouldn't bother checking out the link provided with each video. Yes, it would add a little more space to the video, but is 1-3 seconds really going to make much of a difference in the filesize?
Omega: I noticed you said something about Radix and his view towards TASes. Though Radix dislikes TAS, he spends all of his time working on SDA. He doesn't focus on trying to "fix" or destroy TASes, he is simply trying to run SDA. The last anti-TAS remark he made before that MTV news article was around 6 months ago. Just want you to know that Nate doesn't speak for Radix and vice versa.
The people who are making these requests are to realize what they are asking us to do and think about whether it would be fair to us. This is not fair. It will not be fair until the unassisted community ceases to act as though we are stealing their prominence.
I agree 100% with this, many speedrunners don't treat the TAS community with respect and think they are trying to steal the spotlight. There are also speedrunners who have respect for TASes, but they don't post too often about how much they respect TASes (like me, I hardly post). This is one of the reasons why Nate's proposals stick out so much (besides the fact they are ridiculous), none of the speedrunners who like TAS really say much . I don't know why so many speedrunners think TAS runs try to steal the spotlight.
I guess what I'm trying to say is we should start being more accepting of TASes and less condescending. You guys have done a lot of work into separating TAS from speedruns, and the unassisted speedrun disclaimer isn't a bad idea if we want to make the distinction clearer.
Well I'm no leader of the unassisted speedrunning community, but I have a couple of runs on SDA and I figured I should throw my opinion in, even if it isn't well-written.
Ditto (I didn't feel like writing the same disclaimer).
I think this debate is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe a year or two ago, this controversy might have been valid, but now there's so many disclaimers all over this site, and all over most .avis that this debate is completely trivial. Making a short video universally explaining how these movies are made is redundant. Saying "tool-assisted" somewhere with a link to the FAQ or whatever is completely sufficient. Demanding anything else is a bit arrogant and excessive. Any average person who watches one of these movies with no prior knowledge of this controversy has the information to find out more readily available to him. Spoon-feeding 3-4 years of history of altercations between the two communities and how they're disparate is unnecessary.
That said, there will always be people who don't bother looking up how these are made. But no amount of words and/or pictures is going to change self-imposed ignorance. You can't fix one person's stupidity by demanding a change on someone else. As long NES/TASVideos makes the information on how these are made available somewhere and makes the link known, there's really nothing more they can do, aside from calling them at home and reading the Why and How page to them.
I don't know why so many speedrunners think TAS runs try to steal the spotlight.
I agree with this, too. Anyone who cares about spotlight is playing video games for the wrong reasons.
I guess what I'm trying to say is we should start being more accepting of TASes and less condescending. You guys have done a lot of work into separating TAS from speedruns
I was about to quote everything but now I can't do it.
Foda wrote:
Qlex, instead of finding my post offensive at you, try to comment on what i said. Are they willing to change things on their side instead of trying to tell us what to do?
No they don't seem to be and are not likely to change that way, but I thought some of them would, just as some advice. Now I'm afraid people are not about to modify things in a way that may put down their videos if not everybody wants to do that. I understand that logic.
IdeaMagnate wrote:
Qlex, I appreciate your efforts to make peace, but I don't think the people who still want more from us will ever change their minds. Feel free to keep trying, but the Bisqwit is pretty clear that we don't need to change and Nate is pretty clear that we do. I don't see you getting anywhere with this, other than getting on some people's bad sides.
Very well found out =/ I'm afraid you're completely right.
FractalFusion wrote:
I noticed how the subtitles were consistently being ripped from the .avi.
We should start putting subtitles in the middle of the movie, like in Tetrisphere.
If I had to ask you to make more efforts, I'd write about that one. Yes, the Tetrisphere one is incredibly well put. But now asking for efforts is pointless if I don't do efforts myself -_-' . I was about to say something like "As if she (he) had the power of a god, the player can use everything on computer that helps making the walkthrough of an official game technically perfect." and had a lot of ideas, but now it's just really too complicated, I cannot be subjective, I cannot say I don't want to make TAS movies boring when I ask for 15 secs of movie, because when it asks for every viewer to understand it, no matter how much it's beautiful, it's boring. So I give up.
I think I'm about to repeat thing on and on, thanks Tub for caring about venting, and everyone else here said some really interesting things, as for the m2k2 topic.
It seems the topic on m2k2 has had some positive results:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/TAS.html
A few things are worded a little questionably, but I think it's a good start.
No unassisted speedrunner has responded to my post yet.
I wonder what they will say when they do. They can't possibly disagree with the fact that speedrunners just want to get people to watch their runs rather than ours for the sake of their renown.
I'll respond then.
Yes, I can. I can only speak for myself, but I can still disagree with that.
If people like TASs better, they will naturally come here. If people like unassisted runs better, they will naturally go to SDA. Wherever they go will likely end up being justified by 'well, i just like this type of run better' or some such. It's a choice made by the viewer according to his personal preferences, with there being no 'right' or 'wrong' answer.
For me to consciously obfuscate that would be wrong. For me to consciously hurt the other community for no reason (which is what this cheated disclaimer amounts to) would be wrong.
I only hope to succeed within the subset of people who truly like what I do in the first place. If they like TASing better, well, sure. If they don't like unassisted runs at all... well, ok? So what? I won't (try to) stop them, and I won't look down on them. And in the meantime, I'll help out with strategies over here where I can so we approach the absolute best - both here and at SDA.
We're not all out to get you, Omega. Whatever you may think about past conduct, and whatever you may think about nate, please realize that. :/
It's funny that they argument that they do not allow runs made with an emulator for legal reasons (even though distributing a video is not the same as distributing a ROM). However, they do not seem to care about the blatant copyright violation of distributing the music of the games with their videos.
Not that we are innocent in this matter either, but it feels like a bit of dishonest hypocrisy. The *real* reason why they don't allow emulated runs has nothing to do with legality.
Let's see. Unless a tas'er is holding a gun to someone's head and ordering them to watch a tas, I don't see the problem. Furthermore, I find Nate's argumentum ad democratiam bordering on threatening.
He's armed with a taser!!
I suppose that this is as good of a time as any to inform you all that at long last, I have invented the 'at' sign. A demonstration is to come, in due time.
Qlex, I appreciate your efforts to make peace, but I don't think the people who still want more from us will ever change their minds. Feel free to keep trying, but the Bisqwit is pretty clear that we don't need to change and Nate is pretty clear that we do. I don't see you getting anywhere with this, other than getting on some people's bad sides.
Very well found out =/ I'm afraid you're completely right.
Technically yes, but not like I thought I was. I thought that most of the unassisted community hated us, but it turns out that it's a small noisy minority consisting mostly of Nate. Most people seem to agree that we have a place, that we do enough to differentiate ourselves, etc. In this case, I think it's quite safe to ignore the minority's rants and get on with life.
On the positive side, I'm very happy with the TAS page on SDA. It's a little biased, but minimally considering what some elements of the community would have posted.
The Fabian, I think there aren't enough articles in the world, and I'm glad you're willing to help pick up the slack. Between you and The Cheat, I think there's potential for a dramatic improvement in the situation.
It's funny that they argument that they do not allow runs made with an emulator for legal reasons
IANAL, but buying & dumping the rom should be legal, and won't add more costs than video capturing equipment. It also leads to higher video quality.
Checking for the legality of the used roms isn't their job, they don't check the used games for pirated copys now, do they?
Of course, the real reasons are obvious and understandable - makes me wonder why he argumented this way.
It's funny that they argument that they do not allow runs made with an emulator for legal reasons
IANAL, but buying & dumping the rom should be legal, and won't add more costs than video capturing equipment. It also leads to higher video quality.
Checking for the legality of the used roms isn't their job, they don't check the used games for pirated copys now, do they?
Of course, the real reasons are obvious and understandable - makes me wonder why he argumented this way.
actually, pirated copies are easily distinguisheable from original ones at first glance...
actually, pirated copies are easily distinguisheable from original ones at first glance...
Gameplay is usually identical, so if all the maintainer has is a submitted video it's near impossible. But yes if you can see the physical game it's incredibly easy to identify it as pirated.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
actually, pirated copies are easily distinguisheable from original ones at first glance...
Gameplay is usually identical, so if all the maintainer has is a submitted video it's near impossible. But yes if you can see the physical game it's incredibly easy to identify it as pirated.
Nay, it's not "quite" simple. It's a bit difficult, but not too hard.
Since SDA accepts videos recorded from a VCR, capture card, or DVD recroder, the color/frames are going to be different.
I tried looking for MetalSmasher86's TAS submission that got him in troube (he submitted it as a legit SDA run). Strangeness posted a comparisons of a real and TAS run, and the differences were pretty obvious.
Gameplay is usually identical, so if all the maintainer has is a submitted video it's near impossible. But yes if you can see the physical game it's incredibly easy to identify it as pirated.
s/game/game media
If the game itself is a bit-by-bit copy taken off the official medium, you have absolutely no chance of identifying it without looking at the medium used by pirates.* It's very different to say, distinguishing an emulator-captured video to TV-captured video, as Tub has just pointed out. However, no speedrun video features showing the official media as a proof of their legitimacy, so that is really not a case here. Though, I can understand the reluctancy of messing with the further legality issues no matter how bad they are.
* — May not apply to your country if its pirates are really bad with their job (ie. modifying the game content in some way).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I suppose that this is as good of a time as any to inform you all that at long last, I have invented the 'at' sign. A demonstration is to come, in due time.
Ooh, you should try putting it into an e-mail address to show how somebody's account is "at" some site.
Tub wrote:
IANAL
ha ha you said anal
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
mikwuyma wrote:
Omega: I noticed you said something about Radix and his view towards TASes. Though Radix dislikes TAS, he spends all of his time working on SDA. He doesn't focus on trying to "fix" or destroy TASes, he is simply trying to run SDA. The last anti-TAS remark he made before that MTV news article was around 6 months ago. Just want you to know that Nate doesn't speak for Radix and vice versa.
That's true, and he has every right to not bother TAS movies at all. The complaint I'm making about him when I mention this, however, is the fact that his every mentioning of TAS movies seems to be with negative connotation. Even if he doesn't explicitly say that he doesn't like them, he always makes it seem like he does. It may be very unfair of me to (rebuttably) presume all of this, I'll admit that, but I really have never seen him say anything positive about TASs, not even about the fact effort has been exerted to try and educate people about what these videos are all about.
However...
primorial#soup wrote:
It seems the topic on m2k2 has had some positive results:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/TAS.html
A few things are worded a little questionably, but I think it's a good start.
This is a very nice page. It's not as informative as I'd personally have liked, but it's a good and concise description of what these runs are about and why they're different from unassisted speedruns. It also does not call them "cheated" runs but instead mentions how they are only "cheating" if they're submitted as normal runs.
I'd ask for links to both the speedrun and tool-assisted speedrun articles on Wikipedia, but I'll refrain from doing that for now since the former doesn't contain a contrasting explanation regarding tool-assisted speedruns yet, and the latter is very underdeveloped.
Maur wrote:
We're not all out to get you, Omega. Whatever you may think about past conduct, and whatever you may think about nate, please realize that. :/
I know that, and I know that a lot of people are also very friendly about this subject and willing to accept different viewpoints. It's just unfortunate that people such as Nate tend to speak for a lot of people whenever they say something that I disagree with. As such, I'll respond to "those people", but there are of course a lot of people who I am not talking to. I still think that it's a minority, however, but again, I'm just guessing when I say that. There's still a lot of animosity towards the tool-assisted community, and I feel that unfair suggestions (such as renaming our runs to "cyborg runs" or "cheated runs") are the result of an improper way of thinking in the unassisted community.
A lot of things that Nate and Radix say also seem to fit this description, which is why I addressed my long post to "the unassisted community" rather than what I believe is a minority that disagrees with them.
It's a shame that Nate is simply not willing to accept different viewpoints.
Since SDA accepts videos recorded from a VCR, capture card, or DVD recroder, the color/frames are going to be different.
At least for NES games, that's not so certain. There is at least one NES emulator that actually emulates the composite signal, and I've done direct comparisons with captured NES video - it is almost impossible to tell which one is real and which one is emulated. I guarantee that you're going to start seeing emulated realtime NES runs showing up at some point.
Besides, the whole thing about not accepting emulated runs is purportedly to ensure that the game being played hasn't been hacked - although this is sort of misguided, given that they accept direct video output of the console, and it would be fairly simple to use a Game Genie but edit out the part where you enter the codes. I think it's about time that emulators are legitimized for realtime runs as well - perhaps one might want a checksom of the ROM used for comparison to known-clean dumps.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
LocalH wrote:
DK64_MASTER wrote:
Since SDA accepts videos recorded from a VCR, capture card, or DVD recroder, the color/frames are going to be different.
At least for NES games, that's not so certain. There is at least one NES emulator that actually emulates the composite signal, and I've done direct comparisons with captured NES video - it is almost impossible to tell which one is real and which one is emulated. I guarantee that you're going to start seeing emulated realtime NES runs showing up at some point.
I think you're referring to BMF's palette? It's very nice and indeed emulates the original colors really well. I'm not sure if it's fully accurate, but that doesn't really matter due to the loss of quality when recording a run on VHS.
LocalH wrote:
I think it's about time that emulators are legitimized for realtime runs as well - perhaps one might want a checksom of the ROM used for comparison to known-clean dumps.
I don't agree with that. It's too easy to make cheated speedruns with emulators.
