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Posted: 6/1/2006 2:34 PM
Post subject: A possible solution about the so-called TAS problem.
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Qlex
He/Him
Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 193
Location: Available
A friendly debate occured at metroid2002 in order to solve a problem nate figured, here. Everybody wrote lots of good observations towards the fact that people might not understand what a TAS is. Propositions such as putting the word "cheated" were presented, but were disapproved by some users, and now we have been considering the problem solver as something that the TAS community would accept. I proposed something else than a splash screen at the beggining of a movie, a video that shows how a TAS works, according to my theory that people don't guess what can a TAS be, since they don't have another picture in mind different to "the player has a controller and is playing on real-time conditions in front of her (his) TV." Actually that also generated a lot of controversy, but could actually have your approval. So, feel free to say what you think about it, how you would like it, and, if you can, record, animate, orchestrate something that shows a tool-assisted emulator system, such as slowdowns, savestates, frame-by-frame processing etc... Just in order to get things straight : I want, as for the m2k2 topic, the topic to be a friendly debate about the question. Please, let this conversation be ordered : I made this for TASers and for real-time players, I love TAS and I love real-time speedruns, and I want no hatred against anyone, for I made that topic in order to help TASvideos and Speed Demos Archive about that problem. Thanks in advance, I'm counting on you.
Posted: 6/1/2006 2:37 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Well it makes sense to have a video explaining the site, with some cool clips. But putting a whole explanation at the beginning of every video is annoying, and adds unneeded bloat.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 6/1/2006 2:38 PM
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Vatchern
Player (87)
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 973
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
some of us are both TASers and Speed-Runners. so they cant hate all of us.
http://tasvideos.org/Vatchern.html
Posted: 6/1/2006 2:39 PM
(Edited: 6/1/2006 2:41 PM)
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Qlex
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Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 193
Location: Available
To Nach : That's why my proposition was said to be imperfect, but I think we need to put it. I know it's annoying, but I think warning unaware people is worth showing in fifteen secs something boring.
Posted: 6/1/2006 2:41 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
15 second clips is quite annoying, and we'd have to generate such a clip for every size video we have. Being that I encode gameboy movies, that's my main concern, I really don't see how descriptive you can get in such a small resolution.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 6/1/2006 2:44 PM
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Qlex
He/Him
Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 193
Location: Available
Well somebody may have a try. I approve the fact that it's going to be difficult anyway, but I might see if that seems to be clearer when I see a 15 secs movie.
Posted: 6/1/2006 2:45 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Qlex: effort would be best directed at making one preview movie, and we put it on the frontpage.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 6/1/2006 2:48 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
I see no problem. I am not going to change anything.
Posted: 6/1/2006 2:48 PM
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Qlex
He/Him
Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 193
Location: Available
I considered using a camera, but I don't even have one, I don't know how to use softwares including Flash and I'm busy with high school. That's why I asked other people to think about it, and I'm truly sorry I can't provide a movie right now.
Posted: 6/1/2006 2:48 PM
(Edited: 6/1/2006 11:19 PM)
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AngerFist
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
First edition TAS of 2015 Innovative TAS of 2007
You know, I dont know what bothers me more, the fact that M2K2 AGAIN suggests to change things around here or the fact that we've done so much to increase the common confusion what a TAS is. Good intentions yes thank you but please stop it, I hope you'll understand why Im acting like this.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Posted: 6/1/2006 2:54 PM
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nesrocks
He/Him
Player (247)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
Qlex: i have a better proposition: why don't you put at the beggining of your videos an explanation that it was made without tools and using a trained, skillful player? that way you'll be hapy to also add a seal of quality to the video that proves it was checked and is legitimate. don't bother us, we already provide enough information on the videos and everywhere, it's not our fault if people don't like to read. This way, both types of videos would be clearly differentiated. I'm sure "TAS" is not the only problem speedrunners run into. What about cheated runs, edited roms and video edits? the difference is that all of those try to pass as legitimate speedruns. Our videos don't. If you want the legitimate speedruns to stand out, i really think the best solution is to add info on speedrun videos. Not on all other videos.
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 6/1/2006 3:11 PM
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Qlex
He/Him
Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 193
Location: Available
FODA wrote:
Qlex: i have a better proposition: why don't you put at the beggining of your videos an explanation that it was made without tools and using a trained, skillful player? that way you'll be hapy to also add a seal of quality to the video that proves it was checked and is legitimate. don't bother us, we already provide enough information on the videos and everywhere, it's not our fault if people don't like to read.
First : I'm a TASer, I'm playing Dick Tracy, and although I seem to be dead about my project, it's still alive : I'm working in order to finish stage 1. So I understand how it feels when I have a message like "cheated". I'm also planning to do some real-time speedrunning but not right now. I think I know how you people may feel (I understand Angerfist by the way), and how m2k2sda may feel about the events. Wanted to clear things again. Second : These are not my videos : I don't represent m2k2sda, I want to find a compromise without making people angry or bothering them, but I think my ideas will disappear in a short time (I'm writing for 5 mins, but I think 4 new messages were posted here). If not it's okay, do whatever you want to do. Hate people that hate TAS, they will hate you. Third : That's some excuse for me, but there shouldn't be that kind of video about real-time speedruns because everybody knows that the player is playing with his (her) controller etc... I said about it in my first post. I'm not bound to order you to change all of your videos, but I would be ready to warn people while not taking benefit at all for it. If you don't want to do that about your videos, I would for mine. By that way I don't clearly understand, and am a bit frustrated, when I see nice players like you saying that it's not your problem : Some also say that around m2k2sda. Please get in mind that your videos are particular and that I want to differenciate them, not segregate them. But well seeing that the topic doesn't look friendly anymore I may get out of that topic. I don't want to insult or make you people hate some other people here. Sorry if it wasn't that confortable for a solution, I didn't want this to happen.
Posted: 6/1/2006 3:14 PM
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nesrocks
He/Him
Player (247)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
It's just that this has been talked about over and over. The videos already have information. Only some speedruns videos don't. Also, saying that TASes are a problem wasn't nice in the first place, was it... If it's a problem for speedrunners they can find their own solutions on their own environment. Not here.
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 6/1/2006 4:39 PM
(Edited: 6/1/2006 4:42 PM)
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Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
Red Scarlet there had another good suggestion. "Optimal Gameplay Demo" or "Optimal Play Demo", as in, "This Optimal Gameplay Demo was created using tool-assistance. See Why&How for details." Edit: or even "This Optimal Gameplay Demo was not made in real-time. See Why&How for details."
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Posted: 6/1/2006 4:41 PM
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Atma
Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Vatchern wrote:
some of us are both TASers and Speed-Runners. so they cant hate all of us.
Quite the contrary, they probably hate you even more.
Posted: 6/1/2006 5:00 PM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Bisqwit wrote:
I see no problem. I am not going to change anything.
I totally agree. The only "problem" is that a minority of speedrunners feel that people are "cheating" and taking away their achievements. They either are really prejudiced or they just don't know what they are talking about. Why don't we reverse this petition? I want a 1 minute introduction to every (non-assisted) speedrun explaining how it was done. How about that? After all, some people might confuse them with tool-assisted speedruns and they are way too sloppy and could hurt our reputation for achieving perfection.
Posted: 6/1/2006 5:04 PM
(Edited: 6/1/2006 5:14 PM)
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Qlex
He/Him
Joined: 2/25/2006
Posts: 193
Location: Available
FODA wrote:
Also, saying that TASes are a problem wasn't nice in the first place, was it... If it's a problem for speedrunners they can find their own solutions on their own environment. Not here.
Where did I say that? I said it was a "so-called" TAS problem, meaning that TASes generated a problem, not that they were a problem. I just thought that people wouldn't feel bad about it. I did want to be nice. Please, stop saying that I haven't been nice ok? Sorry it could've been taken as something insulting though. And no, they didn't find their solution on their own environment, that's why I asked for free help. If you didn't want to be disturbed, okay, no problem. But, to everyone else : don't say that this is about someone's fault : It's not your fault, it's not m2k2sda's fault, and I just thought about some collab. Any help could have been greatly appreciated. So, by the way, thanks to Bisqwit who said what was needed to be said here. Follow his example please, thank you. To Boco : I would be saying "This Optimal Gameplay Demo was not made on real-time conditions. See Why&How for details.", but yeah nice sentence. About hatred : hatred have no reason to exist IMO. Someone hated another one, and that another one hated that someone back. If these two persons don't want to try being good friends, which is painful, nothing will change, and they will still hate each other, which is painful too. But don't compare this to that situation please, just keep in mind that you shouldn't be hating someone. EDIT : To Warp that simuposted : Well, I know people are confused, so I wouldn't give excuses : If I were asked to fix that by making a one minute long introduction on my real-time run, I would accept. But well, guess there's a minority of people that would accept that. Now I'm out for some moment, got to work for high school. I might be here in around 20 hours. Bye
Posted: 6/1/2006 5:09 PM
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JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
If anyone is curious as to my opinion, I posted on M2K2's thread. Boco: Some of the movies here use different wording. I've seen "tool-assisted recording" a few times. But overall, I don't think that choosing a different name will help the problem. Some people just don't want to read.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Posted: 6/1/2006 5:11 PM
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Walker_Boh
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Bisqwit wrote:
I see no problem. I am not going to change anything.
I totally agree too. I haven't followed this discussion much lately, but this thread is certainly enough. Why should TAS-ers change everything for _one_ community? I fail to understand that logic.
/Walker Boh
Posted: 6/1/2006 5:40 PM
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nesrocks
He/Him
Player (247)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
Qlex, instead of finding my post offensive at you, try to comment on what i said. Are they willing to change things on their side instead of trying to tell us what to do?
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
Posted: 6/1/2006 5:40 PM
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IdeaMagnate
Player (81)
Joined: 3/11/2005
Posts: 352
Location: Oregon
Warp beat me to the punch. I was thinking about posting something about how speedruns are a subset of TAS movies and how they need to be differentiated, but I can't picture it doing anything more than blowing off steam. Qlex, I appreciate your efforts to make peace, but I don't think the people who still want more from us will ever change their minds. Feel free to keep trying, but the Bisqwit is pretty clear that we don't need to change and Nate is pretty clear that we do. I don't see you getting anywhere with this, other than getting on some people's bad sides.
ideamagnate| .seen aqfaq <nothing happens> DK64_MASTER| .seen nesvideoagent * DK64_MASTER slaps forehead
Posted: 6/1/2006 5:41 PM
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Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
..anyway, the name isn't going to change, espeically now that we have the domain tasvideos.org. But I'm still a big proponent of using the word "demo" or "demonstration" somewhere in the name, were it ever to be changed.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Posted: 6/1/2006 5:43 PM
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Fabian
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
IdeaMagnate wrote:
Warp beat me to the punch. I was thinking about posting something about how speedruns are a subset of TAS movies and how they need to be differentiated, but I can't picture it doing anything more than blowing off steam. Qlex, I appreciate your efforts to make peace, but I don't think the people who still want more from us will ever change their minds. Feel free to keep trying, but the Bisqwit is pretty clear that we don't need to change and Nate is pretty clear that we do. I don't see you getting anywhere with this, other than getting on some people's bad sides.
I like that name, the Bisqwit. From now on, anyone who wants to call me the Fabian, please feel free to.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Posted: 6/1/2006 6:44 PM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Qlex wrote:
I said it was a "so-called" TAS problem, meaning that TASes generated a problem, not that they were a problem.
What exactly is this problem, and is this problem real or just perceived (by prejudiced speedrunners)? Perhaps the problem is in attitude and thus the solution would be a change of it. The attitude is certainly not in our side. We like regular speedruns at least as much as tool-assisted ones (or at least I do). I personally am a big fan of the QdQ speedruns and I regularly watch others too (the HL2 speedrun is also one of my favorites). I don't remember anyone here having a condescending attitude towards regular speedruns (even though theoretically there could be arguments for that). On the other hand, a minority of regular speedrunners do have a grudge against the tool-assisted community, a basically unfounded one. So I would see this as an attitude problem, nothing else, and the ones with the wrong attitude are the ones who have the grudge. It is of my understanding that the speedrunning community accepted the tool-assisted Doom speedruns as a curiosity, not something hateful and "fake". There was no hatred nor grudge there. Why are tool-assisted speedruns of other games and platforms so different?
Posted: 6/1/2006 6:47 PM
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nesrocks
He/Him
Player (247)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
Warp: because we're gaining a lot of ground and threatening nate's supremacy
aka Nesrocks http://www.youtube.com/user/UoBtExFODA https://nesrocks.com https://twitter.com/bitinkstudios
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