Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
Sparing details makes it look as if there is something to hide. It's important to label these runs properly so that they are distinguished from legit world record attempts. This is the main reason I'm supporting a disclaimer.
you start metioning slowing the game down, rerecords, auto fire buttons and people lose interest as they immedeatly think "hey i could do that if i tried"
but they could do it if they tried. It's much more difficult to replicate a legit run than a time attack. Besides, skill isn't what these runs are demonstrating.
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 191
Deviance wrote:
but they could do it if they tried. It's much more difficult to replicate a legit run than a time attack. Besides, skill isn't what these runs are demonstrating.
i agree and disagree. yes, it is MUCH harder to replicate a "true" speed run as it is to do an emulated one. when you say skill is'nt what these runs are demonstrating, to a degree you are wrong. while your meaning in a whole, skill is'nt the main factor in these runs you are totaly right. however it does take a LOT, and i mean a LOT of skill to make a speed run worthy to be posted here on the main site. i have tried 2 runs and they were incredibly hard to do, boosting me into many many rerecords. it takes a lot of skill to do a run on a game with low rerecords, even at a slower pace things still are difficult. however i still believe that putting disclamers at the begining of every movie is wrong. the people who download these movies obviously come to this site, or others and there is a disclamer/faq on how these movies were made there. and also there is no where on any site i have EVER seen, that claimed these movies were proof of world records. only the runs on SDA are official records (there may be another site that has official runs but i dont know of any other) other sites are simply there to show the "perfect run" through the games. on these faqs there is all the information any would need to make one of these runs. IMO disclaimers are better left to the websites these movies are hosted on.
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 155
Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
Is the problem here that people don't bother to read the disclaimer at the beginning of the video? Why don't we just make it so that the disclaimer is impossible to miss? You would need that on the screen for only a second.
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 191
lol i dont see how anyone could miss that, however i still remain firm on belief that no one should have to have such a disclaimer to please sceptics. screw them.
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (980)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Dark Mana wrote: >however i still believe that putting disclamers at the begining of every movie is wrong. the people who download these movies obviously come to this site, or others and there is a disclamer/faq on how these movies were made there. This is an erroneous assumption on your part. Not everyone who downloads these movies obviously come here and sees the why-how pages, I have seen these videos being swapped on DC++ too. This is why we need a disclaimer.
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
if you want an example of how time attacks are misrepresented, go to http://www.retrojunk.com/articles/nes-time-attacks.html . They're making false statements like
It is pretty clear that these people have an unhealthy knowledge of the games they are playing. They know exactly where the bad guys are going to appear, exactly when they need to jump, and precisely where they need to go and the fastest way to get there.
Apart from not crediting who made the runs, they posted incorrect times and labeled Arc's legit Manic Mansion run as a time attack. Heh, the even have my now obsolete smb time attack on there. Both Arc and myself had posted comments about this on that page only to have them deleted shortly after; at least they throw in a subtle link to Bisqwit's site near the end. And yes, the disclaimers at the beginning of the videos have all been removed.
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
blah blah blah It's me and Bisqwit who are encoding those movies and I think what is at the beginning is ok.And nothing will change my mind. Is there a problem with that? Then stop whining and bye that's all. For Michael: It's not a question of arrogance.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 64
Location: Finland
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
HA...thank you Kilu. That's exactly how I feel.
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Joined: 3/29/2004
Posts: 224
"Not a legitimate speed record" I think replacing "legitimate" with "official" would be more accurate. "legitimate" can be subjective since it depends who's rules we're following. non-legitimate on this site could mean it was manually edited or done with cheats/game genie.
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 191
yes. perfect. if people insist on having a disclaimer, then "Not an official speed run" would be spot on. nothing else needs to be said.
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Dark Mana wrote:
lol i dont see how anyone could miss that, however i still remain firm on belief that no one should have to have such a disclaimer to please sceptics. screw them.
That is a good thought right there. But if you people still need a good disclaimer, here is one that I thought up: "Check it out y'all! Not only was this movie not made on the real console it's for, but it used cheaty emulator tactics to perfect it, like the super magical programming trick technique cheat where the player can save a state in the middle of a movie and load it later, and the emulator will edit out the part of the movie after that state! Hooray! It probably also used cheat trick moves like futzing with the speed of the game and stuff to make it easier to play. So see, this movie makes a hard game look easy, but it's frustrating to make 'cause you have to get it perfect with all the tools (not wrenches and pliers or anything, but the special magical emulator, dummy)!" Now you just need to cram all that into a couple of seconds on a 256x240 window screen deal thingy.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
ugh...alright, here goes: a) Tool-Assisted Run b) Not a legitimate record It can't get any simpler than that. Mister DAN, I don't see why you despise time attacks so much when they can be such a useful tool in legit speedrunning. Have a nice day. -Deviance
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 191
Tool-Assisted Run. personaly i think Emulater Assisted run sounds better. tool assisted makes things sound like we have a game-genie program running or something like that. anyways, the only "tool" being used is the emulator, so saying emulater assisted sounds less "cheaty"
Joined: 3/29/2004
Posts: 224
"b) Not a legitamate record" I still think "Not an official record" sounds way better.
Former player
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375
"Not an official record" sounds like it's a "legit" time attack but it's in the process of being evaluated by TG or whoever makes it an "official" record. Just my two cents.
Post subject: This space used to note that, in the end, 's not up to us
Joined: 5/17/2004
Posts: 106
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Instead on stating what the videos are not, which includes a great deal more than simply 'legit record' ("Not a tasty pastry, fresh from the oven"), I suggest sticking to stating what they are. Such as, say, tool-assisted.
Joined: 6/28/2004
Posts: 3
I am wholly embarrased that I didn't notice "illegitimate hoax" was infact a double negative, technically stating the opposite of what I wanted to imply. However, I still have an agenda, and I will hold fast to my vigil. If I had my way, these videos and the methods used in their production wouldn't exist. All speedruns would be produced by unaided hand, separating the strong players from the weak. But people will continue to make these videos and I'll be damned if anything I say or do can change that. I just have difficulty comprehending how someone can call themselves a gamer when they deliberately break the written rules of a game by repeating sequences add infinitum, slowing down the game speed to a crawl, and coming out with a video that shows no obvious evidence of said techniques. The fact is that there are still people who can't tell the difference between legitimate and illegitimate speedruns. The best way I can think of solving this problem is to use a disclaimer that people will be able to understand. When I say people I'm specifcally referring to the 1000s of 14 year olds who receive these videos over peer to peer connections, links posted in ignorant forums, and AIM conversations daily. They are the ones spreading the lies and misinformation, certainly not myself. 'blip' suggested a disclaimer that appears to have a semblence of merit. The problem I have with it is that the term "Tool-Assissted" is too politically correct and/or esoteric. I know people who have attained legitimate records on emulators like zsnes. According to the popular logic exhibited on this forum, the legitimate runs I am referring to are technically "Tool-Assissted" as well. Therein lies the confusion. Before you explain to me how the "Tool" being reffered to in blip's disclaimer is pertaining to techniques like save-stating and/or in game slow-down, there exists a more fitting definition for said techniques known popularily as 'cheating'. Instead of pulling out your dictionaries, come to terms with the fact that these games do not feature a built-in save-state mode, (at best they have periodic checkpoints that the player will return to should he/she screw up) or slow-down mode. Please spare me the 'save-staters mantra' of "They are exactly what they claim to be" as I've been pelted with that sentence so many times that it now holds less than negative meaning. By saying you cheated, I am not attacking your right or resolve to continue to produce these videos, and I hope you people can crawl out of your tortoise shells and debate intelligently rather than immediately going on the defensive. But honestly, anyone with the logical capacity about equal to that of a bowl of cereal can tell that the methods used to produce these videos embody the notion of cheating. Inserting 'cheated' or 'cheat' into a disclaimer is a perfectly reasonable request. But I already know you people would sooner receive a ground-glass enema than delegitimize your art with the matter-of-fact truth that I am proposing; the truth that would eliminate all confusion and doubt among the ignorant masses. In the long run however, even said disclaimer won't stop little Billy from submitting save-stated recordings as legitimate runs, and for that I can offer no solution. A legitimate-looking run would be very easy to concoct, just think about the variables. You can edit in 5 seconds of black easily, you can put the run on a VHS cassette easily and you can make deliberate slip-ups in the run to feign legitimacy if need be. Not to mention that the emulators being used already look exactly like the real thing. It would be THAT simple, and that is the main reason I feel the way I do. You people keep misinterpretting my motive as narcissism or arrogance when all I am doing is looking out for the legitimate community that I have been a part of for so long, that same community that provided the stepping stones for this one. But ultimately, I'm just some guy with an opinion and of course I have come off as rash, because gaming is a part of my life as it is for all of you. I didn't nessassarily intend for my first post in that zelda topic to be a war cry, and I didn't nessassarily intend for the wild fire that ensued because of it. And if banning me, or locking my threads is your strategy for meeting a mutually beneficial agenda then so be it. I couldn't care less.
Joined: 4/11/2004
Posts: 155
Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
Mister DAN wrote:
there exists a more fitting definition for said techniques known popularily as 'cheating'.
Wrong. That is misinformation. Cheating is making the player character invincible or granting infinite ammo. These runs absolutely do *not* cheat.
Mister DAN wrote:
The fact is that there are still people who can't tell the difference between legitimate and illegitimate speedruns.
And that is why my disclaimer said "not legitimate". If people are still confused even after that, then there's nothing more that can be done for them.
Mister DAN wrote:
I know people who have attained legitimate records on emulators like zsnes.
Prevailing opinion holds that the only legitimate runs are recorded with the actual console. And yes, you're right: a "pure" run recorded with an emulator such as zsnes is in fact tool-assisted.
Mister DAN wrote:
But honestly, anyone with the logical capacity about equal to that of a bowl of cereal can tell that the methods used to produce these videos embody the notion of cheating.
Pure rhetoric. The points you make are not self-evident no matter how you phrase them.
Mister DAN wrote:
In the long run however, even said disclaimer won't stop little Billy from submitting save-stated recordings as legitimate runs, and for that I can offer no solution.
Why is this pertinent?
Mister DAN wrote:
If I had my way, these videos and the methods used in their production wouldn't exist. All speedruns would be produced by unaided hand, separating the strong players from the weak.
Again, not pertinent to your point.
Mister DAN wrote:
And if banning me, or locking my threads is your strategy for meeting a mutually beneficial agenda then so be it. I couldn't care less.
Yeah, you "hold fast to your vigil," there.
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 191
Mister DAN, you are one of the people who i have been talking about. people who think these runs are being made to hold records and such. these are made ONLY for the enjoyment of others to show how fast these games CAN be done if done "perfectly". no one claims that these are ligitimate runs done to prove they are the best at any said game. these are simply for others to watch and enjoy. if you fail to see this i'm sorry, there is'nt much that we can do to help. cheating is making yourself invincible, giving yourself infinate ammo, giving yourself all weapons/items from the start of a level and so on. these movies may seem like they cheat, but that is only because they are done extremely well (such as the new rockman run by bisqwit, bravo on that ^^) at slower speeds, so when sped up it does seem like they are cheating. you say "I just have difficulty comprehending how someone can call themselves a gamer when they deliberately break the written rules of a game by repeating sequences add infinitum, slowing down the game speed to a crawl, and coming out with a video that shows no obvious evidence of said techniques" but lets think about this for a moment. would someone take the time to slow down a game, spend hours and hours perfecting their run, possibly do an entirely NEW run if they were'nt gamers or loved the game? why would someone spend hours doing something they hated if they did'nt have to? and if I had MY way, people like you would be prevented from posting stupid comments like this on threads that serve a ligitimate purpose.
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
Mister DAN wrote:
I just have difficulty comprehending how someone can call themselves a gamer when they deliberately break the written rules of a game by repeating sequences add infinitum, slowing down the game speed to a crawl, and coming out with a video that shows no obvious evidence of said techniques.
It's like playing Monopoly with the parking bonus, some people like it and some people don't like this way of playing it.But both of them have fun to play.The main purpose of a game is to have fun playing it.Well that's the case for both of us.So what's the problem then??
Mister DAN wrote:
The fact is that there are still people who can't tell the difference between legitimate and illegitimate speedruns. The best way I can think of solving this problem is to use a disclaimer that people will be able to understand. When I say people I'm specifcally referring to the 1000s of 14 year olds who receive these videos over peer to peer connections, links posted in ignorant forums, and AIM conversations daily. They are the ones spreading the lies and misinformation, certainly not myself.
There's already a disclaimer
Mister DAN wrote:
'blip' suggested a disclaimer that appears to have a semblence of merit. The problem I have with it is that the term "Tool-Assissted" is too politically correct and/or esoteric. I know people who have attained legitimate records on emulators like zsnes. According to the popular logic exhibited on this forum, the legitimate runs I am referring to are technically "Tool-Assissted" as well. Therein lies the confusion. Before you explain to me how the "Tool" being reffered to in blip's disclaimer is pertaining to techniques like save-stating and/or in game slow-down, there exists a more fitting definition for said techniques known popularily as 'cheating'. Instead of pulling out your dictionaries, come to terms with the fact that these games do not feature a built-in save-state mode, (at best they have periodic checkpoints that the player will return to should he/she screw up) or slow-down mode. Please spare me the 'save-staters mantra' of "They are exactly what they claim to be" as I've been pelted with that sentence so many times that it now holds less than negative meaning. By saying you cheated, I am not attacking your right or resolve to continue to produce these videos, and I hope you people can crawl out of your tortoise shells and debate intelligently rather than immediately going on the defensive. But honestly, anyone with the logical capacity about equal to that of a bowl of cereal can tell that the methods used to produce these videos embody the notion of cheating. Inserting 'cheated' or 'cheat' into a disclaimer is a perfectly reasonable request.
The term cheat is a pure lie.Like playing Monopoly with the parking bonus, we do the same here.
Mister DAN wrote:
In the long run however, even said disclaimer won't stop little Billy from submitting save-stated recordings as legitimate runs, and for that I can offer no solution. A legitimate-looking run would be very easy to concoct, just think about the variables. You can edit in 5 seconds of black easily, you can put the run on a VHS cassette easily and you can make deliberate slip-ups in the run to feign legitimacy if need be. Not to mention that the emulators being used already look exactly like the real thing. It would be THAT simple, and that is the main reason I feel the way I do. You people keep misinterpretting my motive as narcissism or arrogance when all I am doing is looking out for the legitimate community that I have been a part of for so long, that same community that provided the stepping stones for this one.
All you want is fame otherwise why you're against this then?It's not our fault if our videos are better to watch than yours.
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
deliberately break the written rules of a game
maybe you can show us where these rules are written?
The fact is that there are still people who can't tell the difference between legitimate and illegitimate speedruns. The best way I can think of solving this problem is to use a disclaimer that people will be able to understand. When I say people I'm specifcally referring to the 1000s of 14 year olds who receive these videos over peer to peer connections, links posted in ignorant forums, and AIM conversations daily. They are the ones spreading the lies and misinformation, certainly not myself.
I agree with you here. This is the same reason why I would like to see a disclaimer. However, in your argument you are only representing the cons of emulated runs, that is, their threat to legitimate run submissions. Emulators are not the source of cheating, as you can cheat very easily on the original console: record yourself playing each level of a game separately and save the best times, next, append all of those recordings of the separate levels all together in one VHS and call it a continuous run of the whole game. It can be done. Emulator runs are useful because they demonstrate to the legitimate player near perfect play which in turn gives the legit player something to practise toward.
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
I applaud "Mister DAN" for sticking to his guns and continuing to make points. Normally trolls just make inflammatory statements and silently watch the chaos. He seems driven to keep this "discussion" going. In reality there is nothing to discuss. We've been over (and over and over and OVER) how to make the opening disclaimer best explain how and why these movies are made. The point I made in the past is still evident in this thread; no amount of disclaimer will ever satisfy people. Someone will invariably accuse of cheating which could not be further from the truth. I think it is Mister DAN who should be "checking his dictionary" to realize that cheating and deception go hand-in-hand. They cannot be separated. And we cannot be "cheating" if we clearly define what we do. In short, I again urge someone in charge to lock this topic. It cannot go anywhere and this matter is always being discussed in civil tones elsewhere.
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I just have difficulty comprehending how someone can call themselves a gamer when they deliberately break the written rules of a game by repeating sequences add infinitum, slowing down the game speed to a crawl, and coming out with a video that shows no obvious evidence of said techniques. We don't claim to be gamers because we play the games like that, but it just so happens that most of us also play the games the normal way, and that's what makes us gamers, but it has nothing to do with the fact that we make the Famtasia movies. What annoys me is when people say that we're not gamers because we make the Famtasia movies. Even though making them doesn't prove that we are gamers, it doesn't prove that we're not gamers either. Before you explain to me how the "Tool" being reffered to in blip's disclaimer is pertaining to techniques like save-stating and/or in game slow-down, there exists a more fitting definition for said techniques known popularily as 'cheating'. The main problem with the words "cheat" or "hoax" is that they must involve deception, and using these words would cause misconceptions about the purpose of the movies. These movies are made for entertainment, and we don't want people to think that we're claiming them as records. If you can think of any terms that would let people know that these non-standard techniques are being used that you think would be better understandable than "tool-assisted", and that don't imply that the movies are meant to fool people, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. So far, the most understandable term I've seen is tool-assisted. A legitimate-looking run would be very easy to concoct, just think about the variables. You can edit in 5 seconds of black easily, you can put the run on a VHS cassette easily and you can make deliberate slip-ups in the run to feign legitimacy if need be. Not to mention that the emulators being used already look exactly like the real thing. It would be THAT simple, and that is the main reason I feel the way I do. Emulators don't look exactly like the real thing. Some of the differences include color, quality of the picture, sound, and lag. It would really be a huge task to make a video that looks legit, and using a movie that was made with Famtasia wouldn't make it any easier since you would basically have to go through the whole movie editting it frame by frame to make the graphics look like a real NES. Even if some guy with way too much spare time decides to devote his life to this and somehow manages to pull it off, he still has to worry about the sound and getting it to sound like a real NES and be in sync with the movie, and I have no idea how you would even start to go about doing that. If you want more information about how to detect emulator usage, you should contact Twin Galaxies. maybe you can show us where these rules are written? The rules are written in the instruction manual, and any rules a website has for competition are written on the website. However, since according to Mister Dan we're not gaming when we make the movies, and we're not competing on any of those sites, we don't have to follow the same rules.
Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
I think the current disclaimers are sufficient enough, but here's another idea for a disclaimer: "The gameplay seen in this video was done using the Famtasia NES emulator. Reduced speeds, save states, and re-records were used in its creation, thus, this video is not to be viewed as any kind of official legitimate record or display of human gaming skill. It is made for entertainment purposes only." Something along those lines. You can change some of the wordings, maybe instead of "human gaming skill" you can have "real-time playing ability", etc. This disclaimer is more detailed; it tells exactly how the run was made and that it is not a legitimate record or show of skill. There should be no confusion with this. That should get rid of a lot of the complaints. I think a longer disclaimer shown for a second or two might be good, since it would do a better job at catching people's attention. Most people can't read that fast, so naturally they would want to go back, pause the video and read what it says. Of course, its up to them if they want to read it or not, and if its shown only for a second or two, it won't get in the way of the actual video. Since its on its own screen and not subtitled, you don't have to worry about the disclaimer being longer. It might be even better if it took up the whole screen during the time its shown. Just an idea. Btw, Mister DAN, even with all the emulator movies out now, I would still be interested in watching your speed runs. Which games did you speed run? Is there a site where I can download them from?