Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Nitrodon wrote:
The glitched command is number 0x20 (F2 command script). It seems to load the value from $B8 (targets) into $11E0 (formation number) for some reason. It doesn't seem that you can get into formation 335, 514, or 463 this way, but you can reach a glitched weak formation 512 (tier 2). Alternatively, advancing to formation 8192 gives you just under 60k experience total.
Fantasic! I can't use the experience but it is the coolest way to safely end the sketch glitch. I did kill some of the other formations but none of them did anything useful. (I think one was Ifrit.) If only this glitched command could multitarget then I could access more formations.
Just for the sake of it, I tested the chance encounter of the three formations I mentioned. None of them do what I hoped they would do except for the Zone Eater, who works perfectly. If you encounter Kefka he appears, changes the music, boasts, dies (if you kill him), and returns you to the overworld map. Hillarious, but not useful. Doom Gaze is the same way. He sets the "Doom Gaze is dead" flag but doesn't do anything else. Both of those encounters require previous event code.
The Zone Eater however does not require setup to 'work'. Interestingly enough, if you use a Warp Stone inside of him you'll be transported to wherever you originally were. But if you step into the light you'll be transported to the Triangle Island, WOR. Now if your airship just happened to be parked there in the WOB it will be in the same place waiting for you in the WOR. If you enter it, it will be the Blackjack. (I also had the option of entering the FC!) You may change your party and buy items like before. When you resume flying you'll still be in the WOR and your airship will look like the Falcon.
I have escaped from the Intangir after a glitch before. Hopefully after enough successive castings of Imp/Slow (which is what brought this scenario about in the first place) I can cause another formation error on the Triangle Island where I can take advantage of the Zone Eater. Master Zed says not to use your lead party member for magic if you want the sketch glitch to work. I say "hillarity ensues!" :P
Erim wrote:
And Catastrophe, you could've encountered the Flan battle after Ifrit too, but you chose to encounter it before. Why, I don't know. It's not rigged. If you encounter 5 battles at Mt Koltz, and I encounter 4, I'm bound to encounter the fifth battle eventually on the way to te Hideout, if not, then during one of the scenarios.
So it is rigged. We agreed to that on AIM. If I have five encounters, and you have 4, then you're due for one really quick regardless of what your actions are. You can choose where you have it, which may alter who you fight, but the distances between each encounter are extremely predictable.
I didn't know at the time that encountering Ifrit wouldn't stop me from encountering the Flan. There are two formations of Flan and I originally wanted the 6 Flan special version to have fewer Flan attacking me. (They arrive 1, then 2, then 3 at a time.) I do know that Locke gets unequipped. I remember thinking that I was saving time back then when I did it but of course I'm not. I replied to Enhasa's comment off the top of my head. But thanks to the L and R buttons the cost of equipping a second relic is the length of half of one fade out. The "wasted" time is not that dramatic. I don't know why you'd praise me for days on AIM and then criticize me in public but I don't like it. To answer your demeaning question: "Why, I don't know" - there is a reason why my movie takes those 4 extra steps. It's a mistake. If I were doing my run to obsolete someone else's run then I wouldn't have done that either. I'm glad my strategy of stealing Magicite from Flan was useful to you too. :\ If I could incorporate your improvements into my run I would.
Mainly offtopic:
Trash those wmv videos, use something better like H.264. Thanks DeHackEd for providing the video, though I haven't watched it yet. Perhaps I'll download it in the evening.
Ontopic:
Great job Catastrophe (and Erim). Please do not stop writing those long descriptions, I'm really interested in the techical side of the run. Plus by reading them I don't necessarily have to watch the video, beacause I remember the game very well.
After tinkering with those Sketch Glitch smv's, my emulator went *boom* several times, and good times were had by all. Some unexpected results, too (at least for me).
I'd be interested in playing around with the Zone Eater formation and "warping" to the WoR, but have no way of manipulating such a thing.
-Oz.
If practice makes perfect, but nobody's perfect, why practice?
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
This isn't convenient, but this is my proceedure for testing the glitch:
1) Start the emulator
2) Load the ROM
3) Load an interesting save state
4) Take some interesting actions
5) Load the bad sprite data and perhaps try something dangerous afterwards (like executing Relm's unknown battle command)
If one of the following three things occur immediately kill the emulator without pressing another hotkey and go back to step 1.
6a) Emulator changes resolution rapidly. (Extremely unsafe.)
6b) The graphics go beyond a blackout or mangled sprites to the point where the screen is mostly blocks of solid color.
6c) The screen blacks out and the "cursor move" sound effect plays several times in a row before freezing. This one doesn't seem bad, but it is.
7) Otherwise if the result was a mere crash or infinite loop and holding turbo for 10 seconds doesn't fix the game then it is safe to reload. If Relm is stuck in an action pose then there is probably some animation that will never finish. (Back to step 3.)
8) If something interesting happens then take a save state or movie snapshot. (Back to step 3.)
I have two goals for the moment: to figure out which memory addresses I can corrupt with this glitch and to find more potential uses. I think the Zone Eater is the only formation I can benefit from encountering, if I can do it. However, I can only warp to the WOR if I encounter the Zone Eater on the Triangle Island. Since monster moulds 3, 4, and 12 are good for me to sketch against now I'd like to find a mould that gives me at least one Moogle Charm. But getting Mog just for the FC would not be worth it unless I also find that sequence breaker I've been dreaming about. I think Figaro Castle might be one way to do it. Theoretically, you could at any time walk into the basement, defeat the Tentacles, and warp to the WOR if only that pushy guy didn't physically stop you. Maybe with a camera glitch I can throw him off?
Catastrophe: That was a great explanation, thanks. Sounds good and I learned some things. ;) Erim does seem to pick up fewer chests and win fewer battles, I think. I could be wrong.
Erim: I made the same mistake as Catastrophe with the Sprint Shoes and the unequipping.
Speaking of sprint shoes and unequipping, I'm pretty sure even if you managed to glitch a pair onto Kutan, they'll be de-equipped at the start of the WoR (and likewise with a moogle charm onto someone).
Oh, and I think you may be able to try the IAF battles for a Zone Eater, as long as you land on the triangle island beforehand.
I really like how both runs are going. Even though the goal of this site is to have the fastest run ever, I'd still like to get finished runs from both Erim and Catastrophe in the end, regardless of whose is faster. Great to know that both of you are sharing your knowledge base on the game to generate a better run for everyone in the end.
Bisqwit, i agree with both, simply because there are differences in the runs and both are really good
i was kind of hoping that when both runs get done, they would make a final version together to simplify the "who gets published?", but if you agree to post both runs i think that solves this problem
So far, the only interesting effects from the sketch glitch that I have been able to obain (aside from sprite glitches):
Relm being level "1" (digit in the wrong spot, obviously a display error) with 16,773,565 exp to next level. 6 exp later, she hit level 10.
Some items were usable in battle (like a swordbreaker): Cursor roulette, no death/reaper animation, instant death for the one it picked.
-Other times it was an unreflectable fire spell.
Items as weapons: 4th character: Fenix Down
-2nd Character: Black Belt/Antidote/Super Ball.
Probably nothing new or interesting but hey. I've never documented anything like this before.
-Oz.
If practice makes perfect, but nobody's perfect, why practice?
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Both would be great! The real meat of a FF6 run is the WOB and Erim and I do that differently. Everyone's WOR is going to be fairly similar with minor deviations for their tier strategy (items/characters picked up.) But even then most characters, items, and spells are way too far out of the way to be considered. The only way Mog and his Moogle Charm could not pay off is if you do nothing else between getting the Falcon and Kefka's Tower. However, Mog knows Snare. I'm using Mog, Gogo, and Setzer as my three "Instant Death Captains." And that's basically it. On the console the WOB is mostly linear and the WOR opens the game up. But in a TAS the opposite happens. You spend all this time trying to reach the bosses in a winnable state during the WOB and then in the WOR you've got instant death attacks and a clear path to the end. Go figure. :P
If I were to give up on the sketch glitch right now this is how my run would play out:
- Blackjack and Terra obtained (where I'm at now, although I will rewind)
- Advance plot node in Narshe
- Go through the Cave to the Sealed Gate and take no treasures
- Score a Charm Bangle and rearrange my inventory during the banquet
- Locke steals a DragoonBoots while walking to Albrook with Terra
- Take the Warp Stone from the barrel that I have to walk past
- Sell everything (Atlas Armlet, 1 Earrings, Tempest) and buy 3 Ice Rods
- Fight nothing in the burning house and skip both treasures
- Everyone ST Ice Rod the Flame Eater to death
- Locke won't know Doom, so use Erim's secret Ultros 3/4 strategy
- Kill the Air Force with Joker Doom or a Flame Shld (yes! a Flame Shld)
- Joker Doom or 2xEarrings + 7-Flush the Floating Continent to death
- Saving Cid should be faster, sadly, although I will check
- (Take Sabin if the loss of Sprint Shoes + Charm Bangle is excruciating)
- Chocobo to Gerad and advance the plot
- Use the Chain Saw and Fire Shlds on the Tentacles (hopefully, 4 attacks)
- Walk to Setzer and advance the plot
- Joker Doom on Dullahan, earn the Falcon
- Hi Mog, use Warp Stone
- Hi Gogo, use Warp Stone
- Inflict no damage on anything in Kefka's Tower
- "Mimic Doom" the tiers and maybe Joker Doom Kefka with Gogo's slot
The only time anything could possibly go wrong is if I'm in Kefka's Tower and one party hits a formation that it cannot run from while the other two parties are unable to "take the battle" on another map. But even if that were to happen both Gogo and Setzer could Joker Doom the battle. And Mog can't be attacked. (Mog will be paired with Edgar, who will learn Vanish during the IAF, FC, and Dullahan.)
If I were to use the sketch glitch, I might do this:
- Go through the Cave to the Sealed Gate and earn 30 AP (double check)
- Earn 13 AP while on Thamasa Island (double check)
- Earn 4 AP from the Flame Eater (double check)
- Locke can cast Doom on Ultros 3 (and 4)
- Earn 8 total AP from the IAF sequence, Terra learns her last spell
- Use the Sketch Glitch on the Air Force and hit it with a Flame Shld
- Use Paladin Shlds and easy luck manipulation to become invincible
- Embarass the bosses like before
The thing about the sketch glitch is that the 306 Paladin Shlds, 200+ Smoke Bombs, 200+ Echo Screens, 16 Illuminas, 256 Magicite items, and 60+ Flame Shlds will help, but perhaps not to save time. With all that crap I'm guarunteed not to be stuck. However, it might be a waste of time. For example, I might be able to obtain a Flame Shld (and 4 AP!) by using Metamorph on a Chimera while I'm on Thamasa Island. If not a Chimera then a Bomb/Balloon.
Which is why I need to figure out what the sketch glitch is going to do for me right now. If I'm going to get glitched Flame Shlds in the future then I don't need the Flan's magicite and I should rewind that. If I get Moogle Charms then I'll need to test if bringing Mog on the FC for no encounters is worth it. (Remember, I have to enter Narshe to advance the plot anyway.) And if I totally break the game then... I don't know. If I can get myself inside the Zone Eater by glitching the Engulf spell into my spell list (which is possible! I got Wild Bear once!) and I can get a glitched Moogle Charm from another/same formation then I can skip all the encounters inside the Zone Eater, too.
Catastrophe, it seems one delima of using the sketch bug is that you have to learn spells first, such as Mute. I'm working on a fun run where my goal is to minimize steps and I also want to use the sketch bug (for items only, warping seems way to complicated for me), but to get Mute requires Siren which requires 10 extra steps.
I think it is possible to do the sketch bug with other spells in place of Mute, but only if the spell list is 'compressed' in certain ways so that a spell like it is in the 28th spot like MasterZed's guide says. I know there are other ways to do it because like 10 years ago when I first played the game I accidently did the sketch bug, and I know for a fact that magic order was set to 1 (because I still have the save file on the cartridge).
I will be experimenting how the spell list compression works and hopefully any faster ways to get the sketch bug to work. Also if you know anything that might help me do it without Mute I'd like to know too.
Edit: It's looking like the compression causes you to need at least 14 spells to get down to the 28th spot so I guess this will be of no help to you, which you probably already knew, sorry.
Edit2: Good news is the spell list locations are shared for each character in your party, so instead of 1 character having to have 14 spells its the whole party combined needs 14 spells total, which makes it much faster. In reality you might need a little more than 14 to get one that works on the 28th spot because sometimes two spells are in the same row, and also there might not be a way to arrange it so the last spell is the one that works.
Edit3:
The algorithm used to compress is this:
break all the spells up into groups of three
{
if learned any spells in current group of three
draw this group (blank spots for place holders of unlearned spells)
} loop if groups left
so theoretically you only need 10 spells spread through your whole party to get a spell in the 28th spot, this shouldn't take long at all
for reference here is the list of spells in the order that is relevant:
fire ice bolt
poison drain fire 2
ice 2 bolt 2 bio
fire 3 ice 3 bolt 3
break doom pearl
flare demi quartr
x-zone meteor ultima
quake w wind merton
____________
scan slow rasp
mute safe sleep
muddle haste stop
bserk float imp
rflect shell vanish
haste2 slow 2 osmose
warp quick dispel
___________
cure cure 2 cure 3
life life 2 antdot
remedy regen life 3
So I *think* the following spells could work for sketch bug (and only these):
poison, break, flare, mute, muddle
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Ok, I finally got around to watching Erim's WIP and of course it was even more amazing than I had thought. I do have one idea to avoid extra steps before you fight the rhodox. You could get off of a chocobo earlier to add steps without having to add extra pacing steps. You'd have to plan pretty far ahead and it could get complicated. The veldt is different so I'm not sure if there's any way you could get to the rhodox leap fight. Otherwise this looks totally sweet and I can't wait to see this finished no matter who finishes first.
TheAxeMan: I understand what you're saying. It was a huge gamble for me to get the Rhodox Rage, because I wasn't sure just how many battles it would take to make the Rhodox to show up on the Veldt. I was extremely lucky to get it to show up in that many battles. It could've ended up much worse and may have lost time overall to get Rhodox. It can obviously be improved, but like I said, I'm extremely lucky to get what I got. Maybe I'll try to optimize that in a future run should I decide to.
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
A fewest number of steps run is a great idea! But make it a fewest steps + LLG so that you can't just level up to 99 on the Lete River without taking a step. Actually, use Erim's strategy to manipulate the river into giving you as few battles as possible. You might set a new record for least XP gained during any run! Erim and I are just trying to be fast but we do take a little time to power ourselves up. Earlier I said that a lvl 6 party cannot defeat number 128. :) Feel free to prive me wrong because I know it is technically possible but very difficult. Maybe you could actually use Cyan and a trio of desperation moves? Retort is magical so it can be boosted. And a level 6 Cyan who survives one hit could then use a boosted desperation move!
flagitious wrote:
I think it is possible to do the sketch bug with other spells in place of Mute, but only if the spell list is 'compressed' in certain ways so that a spell like it is in the 28th spot like MasterZed's guide says. I know there are other ways to do it because like 10 years ago when I first played the game I accidently did the sketch bug, and I know for a fact that magic order was set to 1 (because I still have the save file on the cartridge).
On page five Nitrodon figured out how the spell list arrangement works. I also looked at the subroutine myself couldn't find anything exploitable. However, I assumed that $11A0 contained the individual's list of known spells. That would be fantastic if instead this memory address was the start of Gogo's list of known spells. If this is indeed true (I'll test it tonight!) then that might save me some AP. So thank you very much for finding that!
However in order to use it I'd need to take Locke, Terra, and Relm to the FC. Relm only joins my party right before the FC and I can only take 3 people to the FC. The only mould 7 monsters available to me are the Air Force and the Dragon, so I need the magic probably prior to the FC as well. (Although I can get tons of AP on the floating continent.)
Terra's natural magic provides either 3 or 4 spells. If you take her she'll most likely reach level 12 and learn Drain. I worked it out earlier in this thread, but the fastest 10 spells, without or without Terra, always involves Mute and Break, and Break works. So although many spells can trigger the sketch glitch there is no better way to do it in the WOB than with Break. It's just a matter of wasting as little time as possible while learning the needed 6 or 10 spells.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Say, has anyone tried avoiding fights on the outer world with save-reset-load? Seems to me that it would be faster than running. Does the SMV format allow recording reset or power switch?
It wouldn't be quicker.
If you even could hard-reset and still continue recording, you'd have to wait past the Final Fantasy III logo and then load your game, definitely not a quicker alternative.
As for the Lete River and Low-Level-Game, you can just run from the battles.
I personally believe that the levels that we have gained are essential. I'm sure you know that even we are cut for time while doing boss battles like Ifrit, Number 024(in your case), and Number 128. Being at LV6, our Desperation Attacks won't do the amount we desire in order to defeat the bosses, let alone the attacks we do in preperation for the Desperation Attack will be weaker. And also in my case, the Tentacle battle!!! I say the levels are necessary, but only to the point we've got to(LV10 is fine for the rest of the entire run).
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Yup, it does use the combined spell list. Now the fewest AP that I need is technically 20, but it isn't faster to do so. I could give Terra Muddle+Imp for 20, Locke Bio+Break for 20, and Relm Slow+Mute for 15. However, Relm will still have to get her 15 AP after she joins. I also don't like that plan because Edgar won't finish learning Vanish from the required battles on the FC. I won't have Setzer to use JD, either. If I take Terra, Edgar, and Relm on the FC then I have to score all of my points during the Cave to the Sealed gate. I think I'll test the Dragon to see if using the glitch on him instead of the Air Force works just as well. If so, I'll score all of my AP on the FC with a Relm, Edgar, Setzer party. Because it's not actually the AP that needs to be saved, it's the time I take to learn it. The battles on the FC are worth 3-5 each and Setzer can JD them all. That's the fastest way to learn any amount of AP...
Hello.I see youw wrote ALOT of thing about ff6 but unfortunately i don't have time to read them today.I want to ask one thing :
SPOILER How can you return to world of balance when you go to world of ruin?END OF SPOILER
Normally, you can't, but it isn't impossible.
It involves doing the FC bug, skip talking to Leo at Albrook, getting Terra and Locke in the WOR, and talking to Leo in Albrook, WOR.
Wow.I read somewhere that you have to do something in the battle with ultros in the opera....And it is an early-release cartrage bug...
And here is exactly what i found
Early versions of the cartridges for this game featured a bug by which it was possible to return to the world of balance from the world of ruin. In the walkway above the Opera House, where Ultros pushed off the 4 ton weight there are a number of rats running around the scaffolding. If the party lost to them in the world of ruin they would be returned to the Opera House in the world of balance just as if they had failed to prevent Ultros from dropping the weight. After performing this glitch however, the only way to return to the World of Ruin was to ride Figaro Castle underground, and there would be no airship in the World of Ruin.
Say, has anyone tried avoiding fights on the outer world with save-reset-load? Seems to me that it would be faster than running. Does the SMV format allow recording reset or power switch?
Ha, I was just thinking about the implications of power cycling for FF4-6. In 6 it takes far too long after reseting to be able to load your game to save any time I think. In 5, it would be worth it, except that the place you'd use it the most would be the overworld, and just bringing up the menu resets the step counter in FF5's overworld. It still might be useful for certain save points, but I figure only if they're directly in the path and if there's a boss coming up, you can't just walk to the boss without incident. Whoever's running should test, since it might be a close call. In FF4, it would help a lot on the overworld. I might be doing this one myself, and if so, I was fully planning on using it.
Catastrophe:
On page five Nitrodon figured out how the spell list arrangement works.
Aw man I can't believe I did all that work to figure something out when all I had to do was click page 5 doh!
Yup, it does use the combined spell list.
I didn't mention this, but I think it uses combined list of all characters that you have (they don't have to be in your current group of 4), this could make it slightly more convenient you.
I think I'll test the Dragon to see if using the
It works, I was only able to do the version where I go into the battle with the spell disabled (went in with 0 mp) and get away. There were no side effects besides the items that I was aware of. I used this in my min step run, which I have completed now, in 5006 steps. I went through at lvl 99, I like your idea of also low level, but in order to achieve this I think I would have to sacrifice steps to be able to still win, or a ridiculous amount of luck manipulation (which I'm not about to try), and my number one priority was just to see how few of steps I needed.
BTW are you still trying to use airforce to warp with zone eaters or something? That would be pretty cool.
Erim:
It involves doing the FC bug, skip talking to Leo at Albrook, getting Terra and Locke in the WOR, and talking to Leo in Albrook, WOR.
Hey you say that like its a widely known bug, but as far as I know it had never been done before.
The combined spell list only applies to your current group of four. The loop that populates this list is at C2/5589-55B0, followed by a loop at C2/55BA-55E1 which puts the spells in the order chosen. My trace was done at the very beginning of the game when only Terra knew magic, so I didn't notice the loop combined all four lists into one.
If you actually decide to follow this disassembly, note that there is a slight error with SEP/REP following at C2/5598. The command there should be ADC #$1A6E, and there should not be an INC at C2/559A.
