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Posted: 3/11/2004 1:27 AM
Post subject: The Legend of Zelda
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Since The Legend of Zelda is much more complicated than Super Mario Bros., speed runs for this game are very hard to perfect, and my video still has a lot of room for improvement, so maybe there will be more to discuss about this game than Super Mario Bros. However before we start discussing strategies and routes for this game, I'd like to mention some things about the rules of the game. Twin Galaxies does allow the use of Up+A, which can be used to quickly get back to the start in the overworld or to the beginning of the level you're in. However, I didn't use Up+A in my video. I would estimate that with the route I used Up+A probably would have saved a total of about a minute. One example of a place where Up+A would have saved me a lot of time is after I finished level 8. Twin Galaxies does not allow the key glitch in level 1, but I did use it. Now it's time to discuss strategies and routes. The person who holds the world record for this game (something in the low 33s) watched my video, and he said I didn't use the fastest route. He tried using my route and got 36 minutes, which probably means that the route he uses is better (the only reason my video is faster than the world record is because of the near perfect fighting). He didn't want to give away to much of his route, but he did say that doesn't get the magic key, which is a major difference between his route and mine. He said that the time it takes to get the magic key is more than the time it would take to get the extra keys you would need. Since he doesn't get the magic key, I would assume he also does the levels in a different order that would make his route shorter. In my video, I had to go out of the way to go to level 8 early.
Posted: 3/24/2004 2:01 PM
Post subject: Re: The Legend of Zelda
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Michael Fried wrote:
The person who holds the world record for this game (something in the low 33s) watched my video, and he said I didn't use the fastest route. He tried using my route and got 36 minutes, which probably means that the route he uses is better (the only reason my video is faster than the world record is because of the near perfect fighting).
Are you planning to do a new version?
Posted: 3/24/2004 8:25 PM
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feitclub
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
I wouldn't worry about the "rules" over at Twin Galaxies. If it looks cool, and it saves time, everything is welcome here.
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Posted: 3/24/2004 8:34 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
feitclub wrote:
If it looks cool, and it saves time, everything is welcome here.
I agree.
Posted: 3/25/2004 7:48 PM
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josh_l.
Player (102)
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 189
Location: Austin
The problem with Up+A is that it wouldn't look as good in a speedrun video, IMO. I'm not sure how to put it. It'd make it look more like a bunch of seperate runs were linked together, as opposed to one constant, flowing quest from beginning to end. If that makes sense. ^^; I don't think the door-unlock trick for Level 1 should be illegal (I always thought it was a random secret the programmers put into the game, as opposed to a glitch), BUT I'm not sure if it actually saves any time, because it means having to add two extra "scene transition" animations, as well as animations of Link walking in/out of the dungeon, both of which are pretty slow. Factor all that in, and acquiring a key from the enemies anywhere on the path through Level 2 is probably faster. I'm actually surprised that getting the Magic Key in the beginning takes longer. It must be because you can get all the keys you need in a straight path through the game (I only had to go out of the way to get a key once in my run, IIRC... and it turned out to be because I accidentally opened a door without noticing. ^^;) Both Michael and I passed by Level 5 to get the White Sword, which is another thing I was wondering about. Would going to level 5 first (and subsequently getting the whistle early) save time? The problem, of course, is having to do Level 5 with the Wooden Sword, and that level is full of Darknuts. Anyway, those are my thoughts. I doubt I'll be making any more Zelda speedruns, but I can comment on the sideline. =D
http://girlyyy.com/ The El Viento TAS is the only decent thing I submitted here.
Posted: 3/25/2004 9:31 PM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
Thank the Lord. I had spent a few hours typing up a speed run strategy guide for the game the other day. I was planning on doing my own run that would beat your time. But if you're gonna go for another one, I'd prefer it. (Movies take a long time to make!) About the Magical Key... I too thought this would be the fastest route even before you made your video. And in all practicality, it is... For a human. But when you're doing a god-like video, perhaps it's not. It's an eight screen detour to get the key. I went through the levels and counting the number of keys and the number of doors that require keys. Using the door glitch in Level 1, there are enough keys on the optimal path, so you don't need to make any detours for other keys, or the Magical Key. (Although I think, for example, making a detour to kill the three keese in Level 1 for a key may be faster than killing a room full of difficult baddies in another place.) Still thinking about TSA's run, though. I wish he wasn't so secretive. I tried thinking of a faster route. Staring at the overworld map forever seemed to do little. I do think I have found one shortcut, though. If you make a one screen detour when you're up by Level 5 (after completing Level 2) you can pick up the power bracelet. Then, instead of walking all the way to Level 5 from Level 4, you can walk to a warp spot and warp there. I think this may shave significant time off the journey. Doing all of that, plus using Up+A, I think a sub-30 run is possible. Josh, I also considered doing Level 5 sooner, but you cannot complete it when you're up there getting the white sword. You need the ladder to cross lava moats. Keep thinking, though.
Posted: 3/26/2004 12:18 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Since I made my video, I've also been trying to think of a better route. I came up with a pretty good route and posted it on the Mario Kart message board, which is in maintenance mode now, so I can't access my post. When the Mario Kart message board goes back up I'll copy my new route and post it here. I haven't decided yet if I'll ever make a new Zelda speed run video. If I do, I probably will use Up+A in it. By the way, you said getting the magic key would be the fastest route for a human. TSA, who's best time is in the low 33s, said he doesn't get the magic key (or maybe he just isn't a human, after seeing his video for A Link to the Past I wouldn't doubt it, maybe TSA is really just a machine). Edit: Actually, even though I would need to wait for the Mario Kart message board to go back up to post all the details, I still remember the level order. The order I came up with is 3, 4, 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 6, 9.
Posted: 3/26/2004 1:49 AM
(Edited: 3/26/2004 2:24 AM)
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
That's brilliant! A good way to get money would be to do Level 3 first, get some bombs from moblins, then instead of going directly to Level 4, go to the gambling underneath it. After gambling, get the blue candle from right above. Then, after beating Level 1, go to the store where the blue spider guys are by going the top route (through the desert.) Then, go the bottom route from the store to Level 2, rather than the top. I *think* that's the shortest way. Check for yourself just to make sure. Your new route seems very efficient. It eliminates the long walk from Level 8 to Level 3, and then the other long walk from Level 4 to Level 5. (By the way, I just realized that the power bracelet isn't near Level 5, so nevermind what I said in my previous post.)
Posted: 3/26/2004 2:13 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I don't have time now because I'm really tired and I'm gonna go to bed soon, but I'll post more details about my new route tomorrow. Everything works out fine, and you don't need to go out of the way at all to get to the gambling game.
Posted: 3/26/2004 2:29 AM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
I was editing my previous post when you responded. Look at it again.
Posted: 3/26/2004 8:15 PM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
The Mario Kart message board is back up now so I'll post more details on the route I came up with by spending way too much time staring at the overworld map. The only thing left to do is to decide which keys to get in the levels. By the way, in addition to the places that I mention using Up+A in the overworld, there are also a few places you can use Up+A in the levels. You'll see that I have some pretty clever ideas of when and where to get items, and my route may be even more efficient than you thought. The only thing about this route that I don't like is that you have to do four levels with the first sword, but maybe that could be fixed by making good use of bombs to help the fights go faster. By the way, do you plan on making a new Zelda speed run using this or a similar route? I might eventually, but if I ever do it won't be for awhile. If you do make a Zelda speed run, be prepared to spend a lot of time optimizing all the fights. The fights in my video are very good, so even with a faster route, it might still be hard to beat it. First sword Level 3, raft Up+A 100 rubies from gambling game Blue candle Level 4, ladder Heart Container Level 1, bow Heart Container Level 2 White sword Level 5, whistle Whistle to level 3 100 rubies from tree Level 7 Arrows Bait Whistle to level 2 Level 8 Whistle to level 3 Magical sword Level 6 Whistle to level 1 Level 9, silver arrows
Posted: 3/27/2004 12:20 AM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
No, I don't think I'll be doing a speed run of it. I'll just help thinking of optimizations. You've clearly spent more time thinking about this than I have. Instead of making that big detour after Level 7 to get the arrows and bait... Why not get the arrows on the way from Level 1 to Level 2? There's a store that sells bait in a bush buy Level 2. It's a bit more expensive, but maybe it would save time. Just something to consider.
Posted: 3/28/2004 12:08 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Actually, I just realized that my route won't work because you need the bait for level 7. I'll see if I can find some way to fix that. I'm not sure if what you suggested would be faster, so I'll have to think about also. Once I figure something out, I'll post a new route here.
Posted: 3/28/2004 2:14 AM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
>> Actually, I just realized that my route won't >> work because you need the bait for level 7. Maybe you misread my post or skimmed it or something, but you can get the bait right by Level 2. Since Level 2 comes before Level 7 on your route, there's no problem.
Posted: 3/28/2004 2:20 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Then you would have to play the gambling game another two times. That might be the fastest solution, but I'll probably still end up staring at the map for awhile trying to figure out something faster.
Posted: 3/31/2004 10:38 PM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
Lordy Lordy Lordy. Micheal Fried, I need your screenname. I read TSA's comment on the Mario Kart board about how we cheaters will never know the fastest route. How TSA discovered this fastest route is beyond me. I am willing to bet it's not the fastest route, unless he did the same thing I did, and he probably didn't. If you did every combination of 123, you'd have 123 132 213 231 312 321 That's a lot. Now, think of how many combinations there are for 9 levels of Zelda 1. That's 9 factorial. I didn't bother with 9 factorial since I knew 9 must be the final level completed. So it's 8 factorial, which is 40,320 different combinations. But there are some rules you must follow. For example, 4 cannot come before 3, because it's impossible to do in the game. A friend wrote a program to eliminate all of the combinations that broke my rules. Here are the rules I came up with: 3 has to be before 4 4 has to be before 5 4 has to be before 6 4 has to be before 7 5 has to be before 7 9 has to be last I don't think I'm missing any rules, but if I am, tell me. I could run them through to eliminate other bad combinations. After eliminating every combination which broke the rules listed above, I'm left with 1008 different level combinations for Zelda 1. See all of them here: http://www.geocities.com/its_ramzi/DATA.html Now, I did not include other things, like heart pieces, bombs, bait, arrows, or candle. I imagine those will be determined based upon how convenient they are on the route. The only levels you can start off with are 1, 2, 3, and 8. I don't think it would be necessary to check all 1008 to find the shortest, since some would be obviously be too long, but I'm certain that THE fastest level combo is in one of those 1008. I'm sure that did a whole lot of good narrowing it down, eh?
Posted: 4/1/2004 12:41 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
You forgot that 1 has to be before 6. My screenname is mjf345.
Posted: 4/1/2004 1:52 AM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
Okay. I updated the file. There are only 672 combinations now.
Posted: 4/7/2004 2:00 AM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
I have spent wayyyy too much time thinking about this. I'm going to stop now unless people volunteer to help me. It seems like there is very little interest in this game, or at least very few who are knowledgable on it. I think it's save to say that the fastest route is narrowed down to these two: 34165287 34125876 We will know the faster of the two until once we know whether getting the third sword is faster or not. I watched a video that's not yet posted of someone beating it 30 seconds faster than your last movie. He picks up all the hearts around the east coast (which takes a lot of walking time) to get the third sword very early in the game. The only reason why he's 30 seconds faster is your last route was particularly horrendous, no offense. The route we came to would be a lot faster than his, but it would require getting the third sword a lot later in the game. In short, IF the game is fastest without getting ANY sword upgrades, the *new* fastest route I found is 34165287. If the game is fastest with the third sword, our old route of 34125876 is fastest. The old route would be fastest because the third sword is more on path, and therefore requires a less of a detour than my new route. (By warping to 6 and go to the sword after completing level 7.) Look at the map to see what I mean. TSA posted on the ZHQ boards about doing all of those levels with the first sword. My timing estimates show that doing the levels (particularly 5 and 8 because of the blue darknuts) with the first sword is still faster than making the detours for the other swords (and heart containers.) However, I do not know whether or not the third sword is a speed requirement for the last level.
Posted: 4/8/2004 12:17 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
How good was the fighting in the new movie that you saw?
Posted: 4/8/2004 12:23 AM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
Pretty shitty. A really good example is in that rooms where the hands come from the walls, he waits 'till they're visible before he kills them. When doing my "tests" to see if getting sword upgrades would be faster or slower, I timed his against yours. The two darknut rooms in Level 8 took you 7 and 8 seconds with the second sword. The same rooms took him 5 and 6 seconds with the third. I think this is just because he didn't fight as well as you did. What did you think of my new route?
Posted: 4/8/2004 12:31 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
34165287 isn't good because after 5 you can't go through the lost hills to get to 2 and would have to make a long trip to 2 from the start after doing Up+A. Speaking of Up+A, was Up+A used in the video you saw?
Posted: 4/8/2004 12:37 AM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
After completing Level 5, you whistle to 6, and then take the warp to the stone a couple screens above Level 2. I also think whistling to Level 1 and then walking to 2 would be faster than using Up+A, but whistling to 6 then warping would be fastest. No, Up+A was not used in the video I saw. Sign on and I'll send it to you.
Posted: 4/8/2004 12:42 AM
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Therealssjlink
Former player
Joined: 3/23/2004
Posts: 95
What is the Up+A cheat?
Posted: 4/8/2004 2:20 AM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
It's not a cheat. If you push Up+A on the second controller, you're allowed to save and quit. When you do this, it places you at the initial starting screen of the game. Using this cuts travel time in some places.
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