Post subject: Rockin' Kats
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 64
Location: Finland
Wasn't it Rockin' Kats instead of Rocking Cats? That's how I remember it atleast :)
Post subject: Re: Now wait just a minute...
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Kilu wrote:
Wasn't it Rockin' Kats instead of Rocking Cats? That's how I remember it atleast :)
Yes, that's it, but who cares... Ps: I recommend learning how to write better and more descriptive "topic"s.. The topic will appear in the topic list of the forum and it should explain what the discussion is about.
Post subject: Rockin' Kats
Player (58)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 312
Location: Sweden
Anyone interested to TAS a Rockin' Kats movie with me?
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
Are there any spots in particular where you need a partner? What I'm asking is, why do you need someone else to do it with you?
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
The progress you posted (here) is very much improved from your previous published run. As long as you take your time and check out the feedback you get here, I think this run could turn out to be really great.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Player (58)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 312
Location: Sweden
Are there any spots in particular where you need a partner?
No, not really just wanted to try it out. By the way I'm not knowing if I got the stamina to fix it myself. I'm a lazy bast*rd!
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
Very nice work Diman! I'm really looking forward to it. I'm sorry, but I don't think I can be your partner for this run. I'm very busy at the moment and I am currently working on another tas. I do want to help you with giving tips and feedback. The wip you posted looked very good. I did some testing on the menu, and I think you could have saved 2 frames. If I were you I would also do some testing if slinging around the buildings is faster than using the barrels to boost. If you grab the buildings very rapidly after another you also have great speed. This could be faster than the strategy you used. Hope this helps you a little, keep up the good work!
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
How's this run progressing, Diman?
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Player (58)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 312
Location: Sweden
Thanks for asking! I don't know it goes slow but I think I'm going to be done if I work hard on it. Hope someone doesn't TAS this game before me! : ^ ( Here is a preview! http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1045/Rockin%27%20Kats%20run%20by%20D.fcm
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Comments: Around frame 340, you grapple 2 times, which looks optimal. But around frame 700, you grapple 3 times, when it looks like you could do it one more time afterwards. Did you test this out to see if it's faster? Same with around frame 900. Don't worry about someone else TASing this game, just take the time to do it well :)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Player (58)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 312
Location: Sweden
JXQ, Do you want to be my sidekick in this TAS? I don't know if I got the stamina to do the entire movie by my self....
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Diman, I'm working on a different project currently. I'll have to see how things are going once I'm done with that. (Also I just now noticed this post, sorry for the late reply) Follow your signature :)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Player (58)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 312
Location: Sweden
JXQ wrote:
(Also I just now noticed this post, sorry for the late reply)
No need to be sorry. Its cool = ). I knew all the time you had your reason to not reply at once. It would be very cool if you want to do this run with me. (When you have much time over of course). By the way congratulations to your Super Metroid TAS! It was really nice!
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3576)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Diman wrote:
Hope someone doesn't TAS this game before me! : ^ (
Don't worry, that is one of the advantages of posting wips in the forum. People are respectful around here, nobody is going to go behind your back and complete the run before you. Just take your time and make sure it is perfect. Don't rush through it just get it done at the expense of quality. If you don't think you have the stamina then pace yourself. Take a break from it. Most runs on this site take months to complete. Most importantly, ENJOY what you are doing :) and good luck :) Here is a preview! http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1045/Rockin%27%20Kats%20run%20by%20D.fcm[/quote]
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Player (58)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 312
Location: Sweden
nobody is going to go behind your back and complete the run before you.
(Pwew)! That was really a relief! Ok, I will stop worry about that from now on! Thanks for your nice advice, adelikat!
Player (88)
Joined: 1/15/2006
Posts: 333
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
adelikat wrote:
nobody is going to go behind your back and complete the run before you.
...but even if someone were to, the better (primarily faster, and more entertaining) of the two runs would be the one that was published. That's why, as adelikat stated, it is important to take your time, and to produce the best run you are capable of producing.
print reduce(lambda x,p:p/2*x/p+2*10**1000,range(6643,1,-2))
AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (728)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
No, no, that's not it, Diman! You still play like you don't have enough time and tools for your assistance. I can understand losing some frames during the level, but why did you wastefully jump at the end of this level? Normal walking from this point ends level 16 frames earlier. You could try this as one of several possible ways to reach point B (all sprites are gone - frame 1365 in your FCM). To achieve fastest completion you should try many different ways (and maybe not-so-different - even 1 frame difference sequence should be tested), comparing them to eachother EVERY SECOND (or every 100 frames, or some other checkpoint - you name it). If you just walkthrough a level several times and then compare those versions, you won't allocate strong and weak points of each way. You should analyse it precisely. Here I recorded good example of this level strategy. It's good because it contains a couple of interesting moments. Look near frame 1165 and then near 280. Notice that sometimes it's better to postpone rolling (for letting screen scroll) and that bumping a barrel (or whatever it is) not only moves you fast (still rolling is faster) but also scrolls screen faster than usual (that's what important here!) Frankly, I had plans on making this run improvement myself, but I got bored at Channel 5, so you'd better follow your signature! First, try to beat this level example (even 1284 would be good) - just be creative and eventually you'll find a way. Well, if nothing can be done here, you may insert my sequence using hexeditor. This game is hexedit-friendly (you can easily cut and paste sequences whithout fearing that it would affect next levels randomness), so maybe good tactic is to record each level separately, then choose best versions and assemble them into one (I've done this for CS-Jetman movie, and LettleMermaid is completely unfriendly to such method - it changes everything if any frame were modofied). Uh, and what about taking damage, have you decided? As for me, no-damage run is more valuable, taking damage saves only few frames in several places, it's nothing, you can run the game in less than 20 minutes without it. Well, good luck!
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
AnS's movie did what I mentioned earlier, which is faster.
Baxter wrote:
If I were you I would also do some testing if slinging around the buildings is faster than using the barrels to boost. If you grab the buildings very rapidly after another you also have great speed. This could be faster than the strategy you used.
Diman: you should also try this strategy (and maybe even do some testing if it can be improved).
AnS wrote:
but I got bored at Channel 5
You mean you have a movie completing the first 4 Channels? Btw [url=yoururl...... without the " <- gives you the right result ;)
Player (58)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 312
Location: Sweden
Well, i really appreciate that you guys out here give me support and tips! Yeah, I have to take my time to make sure the run isn't sloppy. I don't know how to use a hexeditor (I have forgot how to hack), but I can use the frame advance function more careful.
bored at Channel 5
You mean you have a movie completing the first 4 Channels?
Awesome! You are really generous dude!! Only question for the moment: Why does the playback stop at the first level for me?; ( I'll try to play the file again... [URL=http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=somethingwrong2ww.jpg][/URL]
AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (728)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
Diman wrote:
Well, i really appreciate that you guys out here give me support and tips! Yeah, I have to take my time to make sure the run isn't sloppy.
That's not enough already, it's time to make perfect RK run or not to make anything.
Diman wrote:
Why does the playback stop at the first level for me?; (
Because I stopped recording right at frame 1285, it's same situation as frame 1365 on your movie example. 1 frame was saved at menu and 79 - at level itself.
Diman wrote:
I don't know how to use a hexeditor (I have forgot how to hack), but I can use the frame advance function more careful.
Right now it's not necessary for you to worry about hexediting. First we should have all levels' records, and only at the end somebody will assemble them (well, I can do it, but only when I'll be sure that current versions are perfect). That's only way to make perfect movie without much tedium (because you can record levels in any order, rewrite levels quickly and easily, share specific levels' tactics and so on). You can do the following. Choose a level (each Channel contains several levels), start recording at the moment when screen shows from black (when first BG layer appears, but not sprites/stats) and then finish it somewhere at the end of the level (for example when screen goes black). Key Input from this savestate-based FCM will be used later (or it'll be obsoleted before linking). With this method you can improve each level separately, and others can contribute their versions of some levels (but nobody would contribute whole game run "example"). Well, that's just an advice, you decide it.
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
I thought levels had different enemy layouts depending on the order they're played, meaning hex-editing isn't really an option. Just keep recording the run.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (728)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
Baxter wrote:
You mean you have a movie completing the first 4 Channels?
Yes, but I doubt it can provide valuable sequences for final run. I was testing various tricks, combining weapons, finding some ways for entertainment and so on. Anyway it's supposed to be rewritten almost completely. Here is it. Maybe you'll notice some interesting tricks or strategies (e.g. walking down sewers at Channel 5 is faster than Diman's previous decision). As seen in this WIP, there IS some room for entertainment tricks (without losing time). Boss fights aren't optimized at all, and what's important here - they should be recorded using memory viewer, because it's not always obvious that boss' invulnerability gone. Here are useful memory entries I found today. 4B3 - boss current status 01 - intro 02 - normal (waiting) 03 - attacking 04 - moving 80 - suffering 05 - invulnerable FF - defeated 07 - outro When 4B3=80 or 05, you can't damage him, but you should do it first frame when this turns 02. It's even possible to avoid 02 at all - as seen on Baxter's Channel X run (still there are moments when 02 appears, even for 2 frames). When 4B3=05, it countdowns before changing to 02 4E2 - timer 4B9 - boss life (when becomes zero - 4B3=FF) 4C5 - invulnerability data (you can't affect this directly) 4C8 - for storing status data while in 80/05 state. After 4E2 becomes zero, 4B3:=4C8. That's why boss can continue his attack after you hit him. But usually it's just 02. That's it, now you are bound to make boss battles 1-frame perfect! ;)
JXQ wrote:
I thought levels had different enemy layouts depending on the order they're played, meaning hex-editing isn't really an option. Just keep recording the run.
Yes, they have, but if once decided to proceed reverse order (4-3-2-1), they are TASed same as if they were predefined. Pieces are savestate-based, starting points for them can be picked from existing reverse-order run (currently published or my). So I don't see a problem here.
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
AnS wrote:
It's even possible to avoid 02 at all - as seen on Baxter's Channel X run (still there are moments when 02 appears, even for 2 frames).
I didn't use the memory watcher for this run (I would have if I made it now), but I timed the minimum amount of frames between two hits (which gives you the same). I noticed some strange stuff when watching my movie with 04B3. Sometimes the boss has 02, when it's definately not possible to hit him. Watch closely at the first four hits. I hit the boss every 33 frames (the minimum amount of frames), and sometimes a 02 shows up in between, and sometimes it doesn't. And it's definately not possible to hit him 32 frames after you hit him before... so you shouldn't rely on the 04B3 too much (it is usefull though). It is true that I am not hitting the boss every 33 frames the entire battle. The battle is (when playing normally) very laggy, and I avoided it as much as possible... but it seemed not possible to get it entirely without a few frames of lag. Also note that 04B3 doesn't notice if there is any lag, so you should watch out for this.
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
So still nobody knows whether one order is better than another?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (728)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
Baxter wrote:
It is true that I am not hitting the boss every 33 frames the entire battle. The battle is (when playing normally) very laggy, and I avoided it as much as possible... but it seemed not possible to get it entirely without a few frames of lag. Also note that 04B3 doesn't notice if there is any lag, so you should watch out for this.
Yes, 4B3 isn't the main address I was speaking about. I'm watching 4E2 and manipulate lag (lag manipulation is way harder than luck manipulation 8-)) to be able to hit boss every 33 frames. Now THIS is tedious...