Uh, hi. I'm new here, and I was fiddling through some posts when I saw a mention of Lemmings 2 as a possibility for a TAS. I really loved this game when I was younger (even more than Lemmings, probably because it was marginally easier), though my experience was on the DOS version...which features different levels, as I recall (though I haven't seen my disks in ten years) and sixty lemmings per tribe instead of forty.
At any rate, I'd be interested in making this one, if people would like to see it. Unfortunately, Enhasa's otherwise brilliant idea of recording the movie entirely on fast-forward fails because selecting a job (or the fan) deactivates it. Also, the game essentially pauses as you scroll the screens, so mitigating that is going to be an...interesting task.
Hey spineshark! I think people would love to see this done well, as I think it would definitely get a star. It'd actually probably be the best run on the site IMHO. But it'd be insanely hard to do, especially since people would be noticing new things all the time. (The NES Lemmings run can't go through the first several Fun levels without multiple iterations.) I think it would take a TAS veteran to do it.
Yeah, I implied that you would be turning on fast forward a lot. Actually, here's the thing. AFAIK Snes9x still can't record mouse input. (Maybe get nitsuja to rectify this?) I don't know whether or not ZSNES rerecording is prime time yet, but it does handle recording mouse input.
Anyway, it's the mouse input that would make it truly insane. (You could even "play around" in your free time, moving around the mouse cursor to say "hi" or form a star or something.) If you could control where the cursor is frame by frame, you could do some really interesting things and be able to select different things as fast as you need to. An alternate option, especially if that doesn't work, is you could hit 7 to toggle the mouse on and off a lot, and record that way. Essentially everything at the bottom would be controlled by the gamepad, and the cursor itself by the mouse. It's of course useful to use the mouse because using the gamepad to control the cursor is a little slow.
Oh and PS: While I think most fans (me too) think Lemmings 2 is the best one, I thought it was generally considered the toughest. At least, I certainly thought so, and some levels (like Take Up Archery) still make me shudder to this day. The SNES version is a bit different though, and I would agree that it is easier than DOS Lemmings 1.
I was working on Beach 1 tonight (mostly because it's the default when you press "play" on the menu) and this is going to be insane. I mean, I had always really loved all the options that having so many unique tools brought, but the implications for a TAS are staggering.
It's also unfortunate that you can't fly super-lemmings on fast forward. Not that they're particularly controllable in real-time on the SNES. :(
Also, is it neurotic to frame-advance through the black loading screens, to make sure you hit "B" (or appropriate button) as early as possible? Because they take a long time in this game...
I dunno...I think part of why I found L2 to be so easy was that I rarely bothered with trying to save all the lemmings (I was still put off by "Just a Minute, Part 2" :P)...my performance on Polar tribe was particularly disappointing, with something like three of them making it through all the levels (I think I'll blame that on my brother, who liked to abuse jumpers, since I remember going back and redoing some crazy forest level where he just jumped five lemmings across all the gaps). But most of my experience with Lemmings fans was on the Team17 forums, where the original was (rightly) praised frequently as an amazing game, but I never heard anything about Tribes. (the conclusion I have come to, after thinking about it, is that Lemmings got a windows re-release, which meant more of the younger crowd knew about it)
edit: incidentally, what sort of increase would appear in movie file size if it was recorded with mouse inputs?
edit: Ahh, okay, I just got all excited when I saw the comment about playing with fast forward and frame advance simultaneously...it occurs to me that the PC version probably didn't allow using jobs on FF either, so it makes sense. And toggling back and forth is still going to look way cool, hopefully.
Welcome to Nesvideos, spineshark. It's nice to see someone working on one of the other Lemmings games. I hope you go through with it.
spineshark wrote:
Also, is it neurotic to frame-advance through the black loading screens, to make sure you hit "B" (or appropriate button) as early as possible? Because they take a long time in this game...
I don't think it's neurotic, as that's what I'm doing in my TAS. You should be able to figure out how many frames the loading screens take (assuming it's approximately consistent) after playing around a bit, which will make it easier to know around when pressing the button will do anything.
spineshark wrote:
(the conclusion I have come to, after thinking about it, is that Lemmings got a windows re-release, which meant more of the younger crowd knew about it)
I dunno...I think part of why I found L2 to be so easy was that I rarely bothered with trying to save all the lemmings
Oh right! I forgot about that, so I was just talking about getting all golds. Settling for bronze would make L2 easier for sure. I guess it's good then, because it builds in picking your own difficulty.
spineshark wrote:
But most of my experience with Lemmings fans was on the Team17 forums, where the original was (rightly) praised frequently as an amazing game, but I never heard anything about Tribes. (the conclusion I have come to, after thinking about it, is that Lemmings got a windows re-release, which meant more of the younger crowd knew about it)
Another reason for this might be that you are on the forums for a L1 remake? :P I'm sure you would get different results if it was a L2 remake.
Oh and Dacicus, what he means is that there was DOS L1 and L2, but only Windows L1 (also a PS1 version btw). So some people might not be old enough to remember L2. Although honestly, I don't think many people would buy the later versions who hadn't already played the DOS/Mac/Amiga versions.
spineshark wrote:
edit: incidentally, what sort of increase would appear in movie file size if it was recorded with mouse inputs?
It'd be negligible. Remember, emulator movies aren't video but just button presses with timestamps. So I'm guessing recording mouse input would just add x and y coordinates for each frame (or maybe delta coordinates, and doesn't save if it's 0, or something like that). The files are really small anyway; I think they'd still be really small. And of course, once the avi is published, since that's just video output, there will be basically no difference there.
spineshark wrote:
edit: Ahh, okay, I just got all excited when I saw the comment about playing with fast forward and frame advance simultaneously...it occurs to me that the PC version probably didn't allow using jobs on FF either, so it makes sense. And toggling back and forth is still going to look way cool, hopefully.
It'd be essentially on all the time anyway, right? You would just switch it back on the very next frame.
Well good luck! First time TAS makers tend to pick overly ambitious first projects it seems, but hopefully you can be one of the success stories. ;)
Hey spineshark, this is one of my favorite games too, I started a time attack for this game but gave up after 1 level, I hope you have more will power than me!
Are you going for fastest completion or fastest all gold completion?
Oh and quick tip incase you didn'k know already, R and L can switch which ability you have selected.
Good luck.
I dunno...I think part of why I found L2 to be so easy was that I rarely bothered with trying to save all the lemmings
Oh right! I forgot about that, so I was just talking about getting all golds. Settling for bronze would make L2 easier for sure. I guess it's good then, because it builds in picking your own difficulty.
I wasn't terribly fond of a couple of the tribes (Polar especially, though Classic and Beach weren't interesting enough for me to retry just to save a couple lemmings I had messed up on before) but I worked especially hard on my favorites to save as many as I absolutely could-Sports, Shadow, and HIGHLAND!
Another reason for this might be that you are on the forums for a L1 remake? :P I'm sure you would get different results if it was a L2 remake.
At the time, I was actually on there for Worms 2/Armageddon/World Party, but yes, I'm sure that now there would be even more vocal fans of the original...I may return if/when I get PSP Lemmings, but that probably will not happen for a good long time yet.
Well good luck! First time TAS makers tend to pick overly ambitious first projects it seems, but hopefully you can be one of the success stories. ;)
Heh, thanks. I'm a little less confident than I was last night (:p) but I'm pretty excited about this...I've worked out an initial plan for the first few levels, and am working with the controls and timing to figure out how everything works...
Okay, it looks like most actions take four frames for the game to register them...selecting tools, using them, activating FF...will test the fan soon. Where can I store my WIPs? I'm almost ready to have my first mission picked apart =/
Oh, and I'm playing for gold completions...although this means more idling time, it seems pointless to save only one lemming in a TAS...
EDIT: Okay, I have a WIP up, with most of the inputs from the first stage (Beach 1) in it. I think that now that all that's done, I need to decide if I should dish out runners to the central trapdoor, or the one on the far right. I think the one on the far right may have a longer path (meaning that the runner saves more time there), but requires scrolling the screen over further...
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload5/Lemmings_2_-U-.zip
I'd like some comments, as I'm having a hard time seeing what's good and what's...well...not.
Sorry, I probably won't be that much help because I almost never watch TAS WIPs. With the not being able to seek, but mostly because I already waste enough time and effort on SDA, I usually don't bother. Sometimes if someone makes an AVI of a WIP (as in Boco's FF5 or fuzi's SO1), I'll watch that, but in those cases usually it's more in demand, so everything that could be said will be taken care of by other people.
I will help out though, as far as just following this thread. Text strategies, but for this game it would probably be best to use screencaps to illustrate things in many places. I'm willing to try out strategies for different levels, so you could say what you're doing on a level and see if any of us can think of anything better.
To make this post not totally worthless, I'm not sure if even everyone on this site knows about it, but definitely the best place to upload WIPs is http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php
I will help out though, as far as just following this thread. Text strategies, but for this game it would probably be best to use screencaps to illustrate things in many places. I'm willing to try out strategies for different levels, so you could say what you're doing on a level and see if any of us can think of anything better.
That would be great...in this case specifically though (the first level), I'm a little more worried about what sort of improvements need to be made to the playing quality since I'm quite confident about the strategy to the point I've recorded.
If you're still wondering though, the first lemming out of the top stomps to land on the grass part with the umbrella (and the "central" trapdoor) but the other lemmings from the top fall on the grass patch below that section.
Then, there's a quick scroll-down (weapon switch while the game is stopped as the screen moves down) and switch to the flamethrower, then the first lemming at the bottom torches the palm tree. Then, the first lemming uses the flamethrower on the base of the umbrella, then when he's under the trapdoor, shoots a rope right below where the lemmings drop out so they don't have to go as far to the right and back.
Last thing I did was to scroll to the right and torch the little can to let all those lemmings through. Somehow, when I scrolled down earlier, I went the perfect distance for this action, since I could just barely click on the lemming's hair there...lucky me.
So, it takes until about 7:31 on the clock for all the lemmings to get inside. If you assign runners to the last few from each trapdoor, it takes until 7:39...I would say this means there's virtually no chance that I should scroll to the right for anything. Something I have been playing with is using ropes to reduce the backtrack distance. Unfortunately the small bit of grass above the palm tree doesn't seem to work very well for this...
Ropes should also be useful for preventing falls, since lemmings don't move forward while falling (unless they are runners) but it just doesn't appear to be very useful on this one...I'll mess with it tonight though
EDIT: Okay, I spent a couple hours on this and made no data-wise progress. I can see a small delay before my lemming hits the umbrella with the flamethrower, but after FF is deactivated...pah (actually, can't I hex-edit those four frames of select-pressing forward a few frames?). More importantly, the rope-slinging doesn't help save time...or if it does, then it negates any advantage given by runners, who are much better for time saving on this one.
Assuming I can fix that small error without restarting, I've watched this movie a lot, and I'm not seeing much, so if anybody else can point out where I messed up, I'll hear it.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1065/Lemmings%202%20%28U%29.smv
Beach level 1, fully completed. Movie length is 3510 frames, extending into the black screen before the prep screen on Beach 2. I cleaned up the previous movie a bit, and finished off with a little cursor doodling and adding runners to the mix.
Beach 2 seems rather straightforward-guiding the lemming through on a jetpack, with the laser blaster at the end. Everything sounds great, and less frustrating, except once again, throwing the required rope.
Here's a good website with solutions to literally EVERY level in EVERY Lemmings game.
http://home.wanadoo.nl/lemmings-solution/
That should give you some insights.
Good luck on your run! ^_^
I don't know which version the solutions are from, but some of them will still be good. (whoa, he has the fast way on cave 3!) I've played somewhere between a third and a half of the SNES version by now, and...whoa, this is just going to get crazier. Of course, looking at those pictures is just a little bit weirder because of the way they've been spliced together in the first place.
First level looks good, only problem I see is it looks like at the start screen you could have started to scroll downwards to hit play much sooner. I liked the rope thing you did, good way to save alot of time.
You can press A and then scroll using the cursor instead of moving it all the way to the edge, I don't think this would have saved you any time at all in this level, but there are lots of places it will help, and as far as I can tell there is never a time when regular scrolling is faster than A scrolling.
The guide I gave you with solutions to all the Lemmings levels can be a gem or a nuisiance. (The guide is http://home.wanadoo.nl/lemmings-solution/ if you're wondering)
I've been playing Lemmings 2, and I've noticed that some levels has been slightly alterated or completely overhauled to make it easier/harder, in addition of adding or removing a few skills you can teach your Lemmings.
For example, in Beach 2 (The Barley Mow...) the online guide shows a couple of umberllas that can contain your Lemmings as soon as they fall out. However, in the ROM, there are no umberallas and a huge fall that will kill your Lemmings if they fall off. Fortunately the game was nice enough to include an Attractor, which was not included in the guide, and 8 additional Jet Packs. Have the first Lemming become an Attractor, and then have the second Lemming don the Jet Pack and land to the ground below. Follow the guide normally from there, and release the Attractor by donning him the Jet Pack.
Beach 5 (Sand Stone) has one minor obstacle: A soda can.Just do the same method stated earlier in that level to get over the soda can, and follow the guide as normal.
Beach 6 (Beach Lems) has been COMPLETELY overdone. The guide is aboustely useless there. I know you have to Stomp through the first four levels, but after that, I'm stuck.
In Shadow 2 (NITRAM THE HUGE!) the guide has failed to mention one additional move you can have your Lemmings do: Scoop. This makes the level significantly easier, as you do not need to use the Twister to dig through the last two floors stated in the guide.
They are a few of the minor/major changes I've noticed in the game, so don't take the guide I provided you with a grain of salt.
I found something rather interesting as I was playing Lemmings 2 (I'm not actually speedrunning the game, I lack the tools and knowledge to do so).
You are given 40 lemmings at the start of each "world". If, let's say, 10 lemmings die in one level, the next level will only have 30 lemmings. If 2 more lemmings die in that level, the very next one will only have 28 lemmings, and so on. Now, to get the golden medal, you had to bring 40 lemmings throughout the entire levels in that world. But since this is a speedrun, I thought it would be better to kill off all but one lemming in the very first level (get one lemming to the exit, and then use the Nuke). That way the sole lemming can finish up levels faster.
Like in one level (Classic 2) the normal way to get all the lemmings over the gap is to go around with a climber, bash through the wall, and then build stairs up to the rock near the entrance, and then build up to the rock so the other lemmings can get out of the pit and walk towards the exit. But with a sole lemming, he can just climb, build and dig to the exit, and completely skip having to bash and build more stairs.
But, if you are going for a 100% run (you get EVERY lemming to the exit), then it will take longer - but personally, it could be fun and more challanging (you'd have to juggle around more than one lemming, for example).
Just something interesting I've found.
>Sketchie
You could do that in some worlds, but others have levels which require several lemmings to complete (because you have to sacrifice some, or because they have to be in two places at once).
I don't know how much more time it would take, but gold on every level would of course be very impressive.
>Sketchie
You could do that in some worlds, but others have levels which require several lemmings to complete (because you have to sacrifice some, or because they have to be in two places at once).
I don't know how much more time it would take, but gold on every level would of course be very impressive.
That is true. I just realized, haha.
Anyway, I've gone through all the levels in all worlds, and I've figured out the minimum number of lemmings you need to finish that world in a low-lemming run.
Classic: 2. You NEED a blocker to turn the builder the other way so he can build over to the steel in "So close and yet so far away".
Medieval: 1.
Egyptian: 1.
Outdoor: 1.
Beach: 1.
Sports: 1.
Shadow: 1.
Cavelem: 1.
Space: 2. You will need one lemming to explode the platform near the end of Perpetual motion to allow a lemming to jump down and platform to the goal.
Polar: 1.
Highland: 1 or 2, depending on how good you are with balloons. The last level (EAT MY SHRAPNEL !!) has two ways - one is to send a balloner up and then explode to get through the wall so a lemming can rock climb through, OR send a ballooner down and under the tight passage over the water. The latter will save MUCH more time, but much more risky. (You save more time doing the latter since you'd have to leave behind a lemming and tackle the puzzles to bring the other lemming over, while with a sole lemming you can finish up puzzles much faster.) As I said, this is entirely up to the ballooner's (ie: speedrunner) skill.
Circus: 1.
This should help anyone that is planning to do a low-lemming run.
first thing: yes, a minimum lemming run would be much faster than an all-lemmings run (basically by the amount of time it takes for all the lemmings to drop in each level). i have already stated that i am working on a "100%" though.
second: the fan really sucks. it takes twelve seconds to activate, then you have to figure out how long to hold it. it took me two and a half hours just to use the jetpack the first time, and i need to use it at least once more for a really ridiculous flight later on.
third: the levels are generally different between console and pc versions (i must see the game boy version now, hahaha). as far as i've seen, the chains are not in the snes version. i am pretty sure that website has the dos version solutions.
even in a game with bad console controls like l2, risk and difficulty shouldn't be a factor in a tas...
Oh yeah, forgot to add something!
If a level has more than one Runner and the level only requires you to use one or two, you can have the rest of the lemmings catch up by changing them into runners. That would shave off a few seconds from the run.
That's what I did - when the level was safe to traverse, I'd make the last few runners, using up the rest of the running skill.
That would be a potent way to shave off even minutes from the run, as many levels has the Runner skill.
EDIT: I haven't experimented with this, but the description for Tumbler is that he would roll up in a ball and move fast. Maybe that would work too - but only a few levels actually has Tumblers, though, and you can't even try it out in practice mode for some reason.
EDIT 2: I just checked Jumpers and Hoppers - they actually make the lemming move faster. I've just checked this in practice mode, and jumping and hopping actually WORKS - provided there aren't any tight spaces, as jumping and hopping would knock out the lemming for a few seconds when he hits the celing. So Running, Jumping and Hopping, and MAYBE Tumbling would save you even more time! :)
Space: 2. You will need one lemming to explode the platform near the end of Perpetual motion to allow a lemming to jump down and platform to the goal.
Its actually possible to complete that level without losing a single lemming.
If your goal is to save every lemming possible as opposed to just getting gold everytime, the best you can possibly do is 4 lemmings lost in total (2 in one of the levels from polar, and 1 in two levels from classic)
