Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
Maximus, if making a TAS was that simple (just time taking), then we would all make the absolute perfect movie at first attempt, which is not the case.
Simply having the imagination to think of the fastest way possible through a level, and discovering glitches, are indeed problem-solving skills and puzzles I most enjoy, but I think most people can accomplish this to a degree of similarity.
In this part of the argument I was mainly talking about the difficulty of creating a run, not planning. I acknowledged both the time it takes to make the run, as well as the creativity and problem solving abilities that it takes to plan it. However, these things are also required in non-TAS runs, so it's not really much of a point to compare differences. I think the main difference would be that planning is much more important in a TAS, but barring the discovery of a new glitch, the differences of times between capable runners are (or perhaps should be) a matter of seconds, if not fractions of a second.
How many attempts does it take you to make one segment in a TAS? Hopefully not more than one or two.
Must I mention that some people use way over 200 rerecords for segments of less than a second sometimes? Especially when luck manipulation is involved. While the segment size is smaller there's also much higher perfection required, you're not going to redo a segment in a normal speedrun just because you lost a few frames (at least not in runs as complex as a Super Metroid speedrun).
Both speedruns and TASes attempt to make each segment as good as possible. The difference is that in a speedrun, segment size is dictated by the game while in a TAS segment size can be set by the user and with segments approaching fractions of a second any frame wasted is a significant error.
Either way, TASes and speedruns have different forms of satisfaction, if you're playing normally the satisfaction comes from finally mastering a segment, just like normal non-speedrun gameplay, the satisfaction in a TAS doesn't come until you watch your movie and think "I did THAT?".
It is relatively easy for a newcomer to create a TAS within 90% of the current TAS record. What distinguishes an expert TASer from a newcomer is the ability to squeeze in that extra 10%. Expert TASers are more familiar with the emulators they use, understand the importance of frame-efficiency, and try to relate to their audience through entertainment.
Yes, nearly anyone can play 10 minutes of a game with rerecords and slowdown, but knowing what to do in that time is what really matters.
It is relatively easy for a newcomer to create a TAS within 90% of the current TAS record.
I would like to see a newcomer creating a megaman1 TAS which is even close to 90% of the current record (especially without seeing the current version)... ;)
Also, some runs require such a huge amount of planning that it's basically impossible for a "newcomer" to just start doing it and get only 10% behind. Think of the Zelda TAS. (Again, assuming the newcomer does not watch the current run first...)
But with most other runs you are right, of course.
I assumed the newcomer watched the current video and could operate basic emulator functions (many newcomers don't even make it this far!). Even so, you're correct that something like the megaman runs would be especially difficult to imitate with the frame-precise time saving tactics involved.
Interestingly, in the early Nesvideo days, a newcomer could sometimes even beat the records...but I suppose we were all newcomers at the time. :)
personally, i prefer TAS to normal speed runs any time. it's simply very entertaining to see someone beat a game without a single mistake, especially if i have played the game myself before. i readily admit that i just want watch the best possible result. i often visit speeddemosarchive.com because they have many newer games that aren't dealt with on THIS site. but as soon as there is a TAS of a game, i don't bother watching the "normal" speed run anymore.
however, it's unnecessary to beat each others heads in for that ;)
Must I mention that some people use way over 200 rerecords for segments of less than a second sometimes? Especially when luck manipulation is involved. While the segment size is smaller there's also much higher perfection required, you're not going to redo a segment in a normal speedrun just because you lost a few frames (at least not in runs as complex as a Super Metroid speedrun).
No, you didn't have to mention that, as I already addressed that aspect.
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]Sure, the number of "attempts" in the TAS to equal the same amount of attempts in the time of a regular run's segment may be comparable, but remember that after every successful segment in a TAS, your progress is saved, and you can continue building the run. With a normal speed-run, you must repeatedly start over until you literally become better at the game, and are good enough to accomplish all tricks in the segment to a satisfactory degree of success. This is what I meant by "harder".
Perhaps the first sentence could have been worded better, but it's the same general concept. I should have also added "ultra-tiny" between "successful" and "segment", as it better outlines exactly why I believe creating a TAS is just less nerve-wracking than making a normal speedrun.
Just to clarify where all of this is coming from, this goes back to the argument that normal speedruns are created almost exclusively with the knowledge in mind that others will view it, which is why if there's a "perfect" speedrun floating about it takes away from the fun of planning as well as the drive to create a worse looking, normal speedrun. Which is what was referenced in LeCorrier's quote, which was in the main article of the thread, which some people made comments showing lack of understanding for this point of view.
Why do you bother to defend yourself, it's not like it makes someone happy, or making you more right.
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]as it better outlines exactly why I believe creating a TAS is just less nerve-wracking than making a normal speedrun.
What you believe isn't worth anything in anyone else's eyes, it's up to every person.
For me, TASing Super Metroid is 10 times more nerve-wrecking and harder, in gameplay ways than making a console speed run-through. I've never gotten tired of console running, but I've stopped working on a movie like 30 times in 4 months.
Also, a person who can not be proud of what he or she has done without having it confirmed by someone else really should try to start thinking a bit different.
Max]I[muS-X:
Technology advances, and that is good. This is the natural state of things, and this force is so powerful it cannot be stopped, not by a few disgruntled speedrunners with self-esteem problems, not by right wing fundamentalist religious zealots, not by an areligious dictatorial class desperately holding on to their last vestiges of undeserved power, not by anyone.
The unenlightened will never convince the enlightened of their superiority, so you can stop arguing with us. How do I know that we are the enlightened ones and you are not? Because we don't seek to limit your freedoms. We do not begrudge you your speed runs (in fact, most of us admire them.) Do not begrudge us our time attacks.
If you wish to learn how to react in an enlightened manner, it is not that difficult, but it requires a small amount of effort. Any time you find yourself getting angry, close your eyes, take ten deep breaths, and then ask yourself, "If I was in love with this person, how would I react to them at this moment?" Also ask yourself, "If I was the person doing the thing that is bothering me, how would I expect someone who was in love with me to react?"
Do you even have any clue what this discussion is about? I'm not attacking TAS's, so you can re-read my posts and stop pretending that I am. I have no problem with advancing technology, or any of the things you mentioned which for some illogical reason or another you assumed I did. You're entire post is irrelevant.
As for Graveworm, I'm not defending myself, I'm not even the issue at hand. What did you do, skim every post and assume I'm attacking anyone or anyTHING?
Also, a person who can not be proud of what he or she has done without having it confirmed by someone else really should try to start thinking a bit different.
We are talking about video games, and I've already advanced reasons why they would have that view. You ignored them and instead just stated your opinion, minus any sort of reason stating why you believe so. I'm not even sure you read the entire thread.
For me, TASing Super Metroid is 10 times more nerve-wrecking and harder, in gameplay ways than making a console speed run-through. I've never gotten tired of console running, but I've stopped working on a movie like 30 times in 4 months.
Ugh, it's not "HARDER" to MAKE the run. The frustration you are referring to is an element of patience, sure, but the only skillset you are acquiring is with the emulator, not the game. The whole point of using slowmo and small segments and everything else is that you are making it EASIER to do these things. You are breaking them down frame by frame almost, and you do this because it makes it possible to produce the optimum final result. Do you find yourself skilled at a game when you replay a fraction of a second of gameplay 200 times, as somebody else used as an example? Or is it simply an effort in tedium to produce a fantastic end result?
I like TAS's, as I've said many a time before. But please realize their strengths AND weaknesses, and don't just try to argue in their favor for EVERY facet of discussion, just because they mean a lot to you. This wasn't an attack on TAS in the slightest, it was putting forward a reason why someone would lose interest in making a normal speedrun when there is a perfect TAS of a game out there already. Yes, there ARE valid reasons for these feelings, whether or not you choose to accept it.
Max]I[muS-X:
My post seems quite relevant when you exhibit just the sort of unenlightened aggression I am trying to help you to outgrow. Are the personal attacks necessary? Is the violence necessary? Is the resentment necessary? Is the hate necessary? I am here to tell you they are not. You are capable of kindness and love. As soon as you realize it you will find you no longer have anything to argue about, or anyone to argue with.
If you refuse to modify your attitude, at the very least make an attempt to modify your behavior. You are making no friends here. Is your goal in life really to yell at everyone who isn't you? There is no happiness to be found in that. Why not try to make a few friends?
I[muS-X"]As for Graveworm, I'm not defending myself, I'm not even the issue at hand.
You have become it.
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]What did you do, skim every post and assume I'm attacking anyone or anyTHING?
You just made an assumption, which makes you no better than you believe I am. (Which isn't true anyway.)
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]We are talking about video games, and I've already advanced reasons why they would have that view. You ignored them and instead just stated your opinion, minus any sort of reason stating why you believe so. I'm not even sure you read the entire thread.
Actually, I did read the whole thread. But I still can't see one single reason to why you wouldn't be proud of what you've done in a video game, even if no one else thinks so, and why you couldn't continue to make speedruns even if someone had done better.
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]Ugh, it's not "HARDER" to MAKE the run. The frustration you are referring to is an element of patience, sure, but the only skillset you are acquiring is with the emulator, not the game. The whole point of using slowmo and small segments and everything else is that you are making it EASIER to do these things. You are breaking them down frame by frame almost, and you do this because it makes it possible to produce the optimum final result. Do you find yourself skilled at a game when you replay a fraction of a second of gameplay 200 times, as somebody else used as an example? ult?Or is it simply an effort in tedium to produce a fantastic end res
Yes, I do find myself skilled when I've done something neat in a game, for some reason I've only become better at 2 particular games since I started TASing, one being Super Metroid, and the other one being Mega Man X2, it's not because I know more about tricks or stuff like that, but because I learn stuff about the game that I wouldn't have if I hadn't TASed it.
And really I don't play it like this to make it easier, or because I want to see a perfect result or because I want everyone to recognize my greatness, but because I love to play games this way, I've even done several movies that I havn't shown anyone, and probably never will.
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]The frustration you are referring to is an element of patience...
Not really, no frustration involved, I havn't had any problems attaining my goal, I've always had it my way in the end, and never has it taken so long that my patience has started to run out, but still, it's really hard to play this game in frame advance, just as I become better at a game the more I play it in full speed, I get better at a game the more I play it in frame advance.
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]But please realize their strengths AND weaknesses, and don't just try to argue in their favor for EVERY facet of discussion, just because they mean a lot to you.
All I said was that I thought TASing wasn't easier to do than normal speed running, even if it really isn't comparable. Maybe someone has "tried to argue in their favor", I can't really remember, but most people don't do that, and also, if you're in a TAS forum, did you not think anyone would try to do that? If I went to speeddemosarchive's discussion forums and said "it's easier to make a speedrun than a TAS", someone would probably bash me there too. And if I went to a skateboard forum and said that it's easier to trick on a board than on a BMX, people would probably think I'm stupid, since you couldn't really compare those two.
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]But please realize their strengths AND weaknesses
I don't really understand this, what's a TAS's strengths? And what's the strength of a speed run? Please explain, I really can't tell.
"Max wrote:
I[muS-X"]it was putting forward a reason why someone would lose interest in making a normal speedrun when there is a perfect TAS of a game out there already. Yes, there ARE valid reasons for these feelings, whether or not you choose to accept it.
I still don't understand them, I cannot compare this to climbing a mountain and whatever things people compared to earlier in the same topic. But I also cannot see a reason to stop doing something you like to do, just because someone does something else which in some people's eyes may look a bit better.
I'm really bad at arguing, so I guess I'll stop here.
If you feel like replying, you can do so in a private message, unless you have something to say to everyone, and not just me (and xebra), like you did in your last post.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Guys relax. As I always say to people who seem frustrated, worked up: have a coke and a smile and shut the hell up ;)
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Sodas suck. Tea, chocolate milk and pink lemonade for the win. :p
You almost win teh intarwebz! You just forgot the blissful yummyness of an ice cold glass of water. =3
About the MAIN topic, I think it's pretty cool we'd be mentioned by MTV, even though I've never really watched much MTV content...
I hate how the article makes it seem like "Traditional Speenrunners" versus "Tool Assisted speedrunners". And it says you use hacked games which is wrong.
