I watched the movie at 12% speed at one of the jumps with a low ceiling on Flashman's stage, and A was held long after Rockman hit his head and started falling down. So I'm guessing it would probably be consistent, though I somehow missed having it really slow on any other jump like that.
I'd think that touching the ground for one frame wouldn't help your speed enough to gain even a single frame, but I don't know enough about that unless I did my own testing, which I'm far too lazy to do. =P
oh, sorry. It was in the old TAS you didn´t use it... Or maybee I´m totally wrong annyway :S hehe, But the new one with all crazy glitches was very surprising when I saw it.
Also, for small jumps before falling where you hit a ceiling, Zoizite found it was faster to do large jump even though you hit the ceiling anyway, are you doing this?
Due to positive verification I agree with Zoizite on this, and I did it in Quickman stage and other places where applicable. Shinryuu?
Bubbleman stage completed. (Last 8 of 8 robot masters, next up: Wily 1)
https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/rockman2-shinryuu,bisqwit-pending-v2.4.7.fcm (27545 bytes)
https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/rockman2-shinryuu,bisqwit-pending-v2.4.7.avi (around 3 megabytes - Bubbleman stage only)
The Bubbleman stage employs most of Finalfighter's recent findings for this stage (luckily, after our meticilous comparison of the lengths of different paths, all of them actually could be incorporated into the final path), as well as Shinryuu's and Bisqwit's combined new strategy for the Bubbleman boss.
In the end of the battle, Rockman falls into a pit that is located in the Wily3 stage. Because the boss is dead, the game won't check whether Rockman dies. Rockman keeps falling infinitely, at 12 pixels per second. His Y coordinate, being 8-bit only, counts 0->255 over and over again. When the time comes for him to teleport out from the stage, I made it certain that his Y coordinate is as small as possible, so that his magnificent jump is actually over before it even starts. This precision actually counts up to as much as 20 frames in the final hit alone, due to reasons I don't quite even understand myself.
Notice that Bubbleman is too terrified by all of this that he can't even move.
EDIT: Oh by the way, it would seem that we're around 820 frames (~13.5 seconds) ahead of Morimoto&Finalfighter's Rockman2 TAS.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Many weapon switching on Bubbleman :) Outstanding WIP so far.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
How do you keep him from dying at the beginning of Wily 1 now?
Why would he die there? It's not like he is still beneath the floor there. The game resets HP and coordinates when it loads a new stage or reloads the same stage.
Edit: I wouldn't have expected this, but you are actually right :o
Looks like we can't use this strategy then.
Edit: Removing that strategy from the movie, we're 33 frames slower.
I have one concern. When you defeat a boss, does it make a difference where Rockman's Y-Coordinate is? Like in Heatmans fight, you are in the air when you start to teleport upwards. I was wondering if this actually made a difference.
If it does, this could be acheived in Metalman fight.
[EDIT] In the Airman stage, you seem to use Item1 quite often at the beginning, when regular jumping could be acheived. Is this really faster than using item1 at the boss entrance of Airman? Also, does a Heat charge kill Airman in one hit? or in anyway be faster than just the buster?. Or, for that matter, can the "in the wall jump to get in the floor" tech be used in the airman fight to make you arrive to airman quicker?
In Crashman stage, you use Item3 to get "a boost" when the screen scrolls Verticly, but you dont seem to use it at 35226. Any reason why not?
In Bubbleman stage, would it be any help to use Item2 right at the beginning for a faster movement? or would the weapon switch cause problems?
Other than that, Nice job.
But does Mega Man start at the same height in every level? I don't think he does (Bubble Man is quite high, for example), so the height must be reset between levels. Maybe this is done on the screen that introduces the level bosses, and so Wily 1 is a special case. This could be tested by killing Bubble Man in this way when another robot boss is still alive.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I think Bisqwit said it was due to some "above the screen" flag. Or maybe that's just the explanation for why Meggyrock's invisible. Does the game think he's still somewhere around that Wily 3 level Bisqwit mentioned, perhaps?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Does the game think he's still somewhere around that Wily 3 level Bisqwit mentioned, perhaps?
Probably not.
I got the same effect a few years ago, when I was hacking the levels with visine (Fx3's editor); I found that if you put a bottomless pit in a boss room, and you fall in it after you kill the boss, you keep dying at the start of the next level, as we're seeing in this run now.
My guess, as others have, is that the game never recovers from thinking you're off the screen; I don't think which screen you're on has anything to do with it. Besides, that value probably got reset anyway when Wily 1 loaded, or else Rock might not've started on the first screen of Wily 1...
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I have one concern. When you defeat a boss, does it make a difference where Rockman's Y-Coordinate is? Like in Heatmans fight, you are in the air when you start to teleport upwards. I was wondering if this actually made a difference.
Yes, it makes a difference. That's what the falling-into-a-pit was all about.
> If it does, this could be acheived in Metalman fight.
You mean the suicide? I'm sceptical. Getting Rockman on the verge of death would require taking hit, and taking hit would require long periods of time where Rockman can not shoot, and the boss is vulnerable. In Heatman it was doable because Heatman has longer delays.
> In the Airman stage, you seem to use Item1 quite often at the beginning, when regular jumping could be acheived. Is this really faster than using item1 at the boss entrance of Airman?
If I recall correctly, using item1 at the boss entrance is about 30 frames slower than otherwise, because of the switch-to-item1 and switch-back-to-P.
> Also, does a Heat charge kill Airman in one hit? or in anyway be faster than just the buster?.
Good question. I can not answer that question.
However, because Finalfighter chose to use the P weapon to kill Airman in the rematches, I believe it's likely the fastest way.
EDIT: The full power H charge seems to take about 3-4 hits to kill.
> Or, for that matter, can the "in the wall jump to get in the floor" tech be used in the airman fight to make you arrive to airman quicker?
Another good question. I originally shrugged off this idea because I thought it can't be done (there's no solid ceiling in Airman's tunnel), but experience from Bubbleman stage (also, Shinryuu's explanation) proved me wrong.
But, if Rockman gets into the floor, he somehow needs to avoid the tornadoes while still being able to hit Airman. If he gets just 16 pixels below the surface, he'll probably take damage from a tornado. If he gets 32 pixels below the surface, the P weapon will not hit Airman. (Probably not even the full H shot will hit.)
> In Crashman stage, you use Item3 to get "a boost" when the screen scrolls Verticly, but you dont seem to use it at 35226. Any reason why not?
EDIT: There was already an item3 there.
So why not use it more above? Because it wouldn't have gained anything. The same time that would be gained in the next screen would be lost if the item3 was used later. Also, this way, another item3 can be used immediately in the next screen for gain.
> In Bubbleman stage, would it be any help to use Item2 right at the beginning for a faster movement? or would the weapon switch cause problems?
Travelling across the screen with item2 in Bubbleman stage beginning has two problems:
- lag (lots of it)
- it exhausts the item2 completely.
Because of the lag, the travel gains time only if it's done for the full length of the screen. And then it would exhaust the item2 power completely. The place where we currently use the item2 power is much more important (although it's sad that we don't use it completely).
EDIT: Hmm, speaking of item2, I think I should try whether using the Item2 to travel above the big fish would save any time. There's enough unused juice in the item2 to do that.
EDIT 2: Apparently it's not profitable. It would be only 7 frames faster than the WIP I posted, but the WIP could actually be improved by 21 frames in the item2-zip phase without changing the strategy.
For those of you who missed all the 'pit trick' discussion and experimentation 12 pages back:
crashman_pit.fcmScrollerwily2-Shinryuu.fcm
Quickman and Wily2 were the only two levels where we found a way to survive (and save time with) the pit trick. Unfortunately, each of these instances fails to completely make up for frames lost in the boss fight.
edit: Bisqwit wrote:
Removing that strategy (pit trick) from the movie, we're 33 frames slower.
To what extent are you removing this strategy from the movie? Are you simply not turning left at the end, so as to avoid falling in the pit hence you don't shorten the teleport delay? By that time, you've already lost time having to rise a step higher on item1 and jumping across the shutter. Some of this is still offset by zipping to Bubbleman instead of letting a metal blade travel across the screen, but is this worth it?
Have you tried kolechovski's suggestion? Fight normally then hit Rockman's head on the ceiling just before Bubbleman dies. I have wondered whether you can pull this off without losing any time in the fight.
To what extent are you removing this strategy from the movie? Are you simply not turning left at the end, so as to avoid falling in the pit hence you don't shorten the teleport delay? By that time, you've already lost time having to rise a step higher on item1 and jumping across the shutter. Some of this is still offset by zipping to Bubbleman instead of letting a metal blade travel across the screen, but is this worth it?
The two strategies:
- Keep Item2, change to M in boss battle, no zipping
- Change to Item1, zip, hit boss fast
are actually exactly equally fast, when we measure the frame when the first blade hits Bubbleman. And of course I choose the glitchier one.
> Have you tried kolechovski's suggestion? Fight normally then hit Rockman's head on the ceiling just before Bubbleman dies.
On what ceiling? *lost*
Edit: Oh. *stupid* I have to try it.
Counting also the advances I did in Bubbleman stage today (29 frames on that front IIRC), we're now 7 frames ahead the game-destroying WIP I posted earlier.
Nice solution. =)
It seems obvious enough now, but I never would have thought of using the spikes.
Was the time saved in the level from using item 2 to get over the fish? Or was it something else? (or a combination of things)
I love it. Does your X-cordinate matter for teleport out times?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
