Joined: 9/7/2005
Posts: 144
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
The three-month bump. I'm not even sure who's working on this now, if anyone.
Wandering Road: You can pick up one at least one Ice Rod in the burning house in Thamasa, maybe two, I don't recall. That would cut down on the amount of money you'd need to come up with. Sprint Shoes are 1500 bucks a pop, and it would only be feasible to buy all three at the same time in the shop in S. Figaro, but you'd need that money ahead of time, obviously.
Yeah, there is one Ice Rod in the burning house (and one Fire Rod.) A Morphed Terra can use them to OHKO Flame Eater and instantly make Relm appear vs. Ultros, which is probably the best use for them. Kutan really shouldn't have to fight too much, luckily (I think just Number 024 and Tentacles?) So we shouldn't need to buy too many rods, if any at all.
Daniel, Lord Bahamut wrote:
The three-month bump. I'm not even sure who's working on this now, if anyone.
...I don't think anyone's currently working on this. I'm kind of tempted, but it's a little overwhelming for my first TAS.
...I don't think anyone's currently working on this. I'm kind of tempted, but it's a little overwhelming for my first TAS.
Even if it will be your first TAS it will be great practice. :)
I don't know how much patience you have normally, but you will need LOADS of it to make this TAS. Good luck.
It seems to me that lately there's a tendency for first-time TASers to take on very complicated projects (ie. Atma, hero of the day).
I'd like to make one too eventually, but I highly doubt I'd want to start with FF3! The expectation is huge! It would be very brave and ambitious of you to take a swing at it, Wandering Road.
I'd watch anything that is faster than the run on www.speeddemosarchive.com
If it beats that time, I think it's publishable here. Even though it can be improved. Problem with this run is that it will draw so much attention and imputs, which eventually will force the creator to re-start and re-make every single frame that someone feel is errornous. :D
I beleive Jyzero felt somewhat like that, allthough he was extreamly good at what he was making, and had the ambition etc..
Someone who is doing this run must be extreamly patient. I beleive that this game will be one of the hardest runs ever to make.
I've been playing FF6 LLG lately, so I've gained a great deal of familiarity with it. That and a small amount of recent activity here prompted me to read this entire thread pretty thoroughly. Some reactions:
SprintGod wrote:
In no particular order, after using Retort:
# On Cyan's next turn, Equip Imp Halberd via the Item menu. Skip his turn with X / Y.
# Imp Cyan.
# Kill and Revive Cyan.
As long all the above is done before Cyan counters something, the glitch should be in effect with the Imp Halberd equipped.
In most boss fights, desperation attacks, vanish doom, joker doom, or rods/shields are obviously going to be the way to fight. However, if there were a time-efficient way to get Cyan in the WoR this would be a neat way to use a fun trick while ending input very early against Kefka... it would look funny, too.
In any case, all the time spent getting Cyan probably isn't worth it. Too bad. Maybe Gogo could sub for him? That's not completely unreasonable with a Moogle Charm.
Corundum wrote:
Jyzero wrote:
Gau with Merit Award + Illumina + Stray Cat could be very powerful, if unpredictible. (Is Merti Award+ Gengi Glove + Illumina + Illumina possible ?)
Someone (Setzer or Gau) should have the Fixed Dice. I know you'll have the Illuminas already from the Sketch glitch, but the Fixed Dice are right on the way in Kefka's Tower. Plus, at the low levels you'll be at, I'm fairly certain the Illumina can't hit 9,999 damage. The Fixed Dice *can*, though a fair amount of luck manipulation might be needed. (Rolling 6-6-6, any character will do 9,999 damage at as low as 4th level!)
Merit Awards take a few colloseum battles to earn. I've been playing FF6 on Final Fantasy Anthology, where they removed Gau's ability to equip the Merit Award. Luckily, there's an alternative (that I haven't tested in FF3 1.0 US). If there are no other equippable items for a character available, and you place a weapon in the very last item slot, then select "Optimal", you'll be equipped with the weapon in the last position. This is a good way to give Gau a Tempest, Thiefknife or Illumina without access to a Merit Award.
EDIT: This works for Dice and Fixed Dice as well, though I'm not sure how Catscratch works with those.
Unfortunately it's slow to use; when you're moving an item (at least in FFAnthology) the fast scroll with L & R is disabled. It could still be handy, perhaps, because Gau is very powerful and very quick to obtain.
The trick where Gau uses Stray Cat's Catscratch while equipped with a Tempest won't be useful against the three tiers, though. At least of couple of those components absorb wind.
What took me out of the project was :
1)The lack of time
but most importantly
2)The complexity of planning
FF3 isn't break into independant levels. You never know how a little action will affect your run :
-The scenario order
-To get or not shadow
-Which magic to learn, when, and with who
-Buying some items that you will use only 1 hour later without knowing how much exactly you will need (like rods, echo screens)
-Managing HPs for desperation attacks
-Manage EXP by running away
The two big recent things :
-The skip Celes entirely trick : This brings major changes to the plannification. Does it save time ? You'll only know after weeks of rerecording.
-The Mimic Joker Doom strategy on Final Boss : Throw away all previous planification of WOR. Sketch glitch is now totally optionnal.
I do however plan at some time to make some tools for FF3 TAS production like some kind of BisqBot for critical hits and desperation attacks. If it works (and it works) you save 15-30 minutes. But you may find yourself at the last battle in a deadlock situation where you can't get the very strict sequence of luck required.
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
1)The lack of time
but most importantly
2)The complexity of planning
Sorry, can't help you on 1. But after successfully TASing big RPGs myself I can tell you that the solution to 2 is iteration. Don't aim for absolute perfection the first time through, but make a reasonable attempt. You may not even get it the second or third, but you will get closer. Of course you'll find tricks as you go which will make the test run look uneven, but I don't think anyone cares. During this process you will also get a feel for timeattacking the game so the next time through it will be easier.
I know it sounds painful to make multiple runs which are all very long and complex, but in the end it just isn't an option to get it right the first time. I did three test runs of DW2 and though it was a pain, the final result was so worth it.
Posting a full test run is also very valuable, no matter what the quality. Not only can you use it as a baseline, but other people can too. With so many people interested in this game I'm surprised no one has done this yet. All the different strategies can be discussed and theorized but this is no replacement for an smv which shows it.
This might seem a bit off-topic but does anyone know of any (or any good) FF6 hacks / remakes?
http://www.zophar.net/hacks/files/FF6EV2IPS.zip
i90east's Expert Version 2. Basically alters the difficulty of the game and replaces a few items. his homepage, http://www.cyberveldt.com, is down, as support and updates for EV2 has halted, but there's an archive.org link around.. I'll see if I can find it. The only problem I have with this one is that it basically just makes it so you have to level, then it's pretty much as easy as the regular game.
http://www.blitzkrieg.finalconquest.net/ff3usht/FF3usHT.rar
BlitzKrieg Innovation's FF3usHT. Changes can be found on http://www.blitzkrieg.finalconquest.net/ff3usht.html. Beware, the dialogue changes can seem very immature and childish at times, but it's a very enjoyable, and VERY tough mod. Recommended over i90east's.
http://www.zophar.net/hacks/files/Ff3_hardtype.zip
Cless' Hardtype. No idea what's changed in here, and the new homepage offers no information that I could find. I have heard more about this one than any other, and the majority of responses have been positive.
http://www.zophar.net/hacks/snes.html
No explanation required.
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/final_fantasy_iii_l.txt
Djibriel's FF3 walkthrough (currently WoB only). I thought I knew pretty much everything this game had to offer but he completely disassembles the game. I found so much new information, and it's presented.. in an awesome fashion. A good read even if you don't want to use it for it's walkthroughiness. I don't know how Gamefaqs likes others to link their files anymore, so I don't know if clicking will work or if you have to copy paste.
Cheers.
-Oz.
If practice makes perfect, but nobody's perfect, why practice?
Speaking of FF3, there is some discussion on SDA forums about Japanese speed runs. The current best FF6 time is 3:21. Here's a document about it :
http://ultimagarden.net/report/cole_ff6_ta.txt
I don't understand japanese, but from Google translation, it seems they find a way to have Terra at lvl 99 early in the game.
The thing with a game like FF3 is that it's always going to be improvable. Anyone who runs it has to accept that going in. They won't do a perfect run, at least not the first ten times through. Someone just needs to do the first one as best they can, and then we can worry about improvements.
Jyzero wrote:
2)The complexity of planning
FF3 isn't break into independant levels. You never know how a little action will affect your run :
-The scenario order
-To get or not shadow
-Which magic to learn, when, and with who
-Buying some items that you will use only 1 hour later without knowing how much exactly you will need (like rods, echo screens)
-Managing HPs for desperation attacks
-Manage EXP by running away
Scenarios: Terra's is fast and has no real rewards. It can go anywhere. The real question is whether to do Sabin's or Locke's first. If we don't get Celes, then Locke's has no real treasures, and he could probably use some of the equipment from Sabin's scenario. The optimal order is probably Terra->Sabin->Locke, but that does need more testing.
Shadow: The only time he might help is in Sabin's scenario. There's enough required battles there that another party member will almost certainly speed things up more than the time it takes to get him. He's too far out of the path in Kohlingen, and there's no battles that need to be fought on the Floating Continent (Atma goes down to ES/JD.)
Magic: You get too few magic points to learn anything useful before getting Setzer and his slots. The only battles you have to fight afterwards can all be done with Rods. It might be faster to teach Locke Vanish and Doom to take out Flame Eater and Ultros 3 without Rods.
Items: Only going to be figured out by playtesting, I fear. Even that's not exact for Smoke Bombs and such.
HP: Doesn't really need testing, but is going to be very tedious.
EXP: I'd imagine the bare minimum will be fastest, but this needs testing too.
I don't really think it's as bad as it seems. A good testrun or two should give all the info we need.
Jyzero wrote:
Speaking of FF3, there is some discussion on SDA forums about Japanese speed runs. The current best FF6 time is 3:21. Here's a document about it :
http://ultimagarden.net/report/cole_ff6_ta.txt
I don't understand japanese, but from Google translation, it seems they find a way to have Terra at lvl 99 early in the game.
...is that even possible in the American version?! I know they took some bugs out...maybe there was some sort of massive EXP-giving test creature that the devlopers missed?
I guess that if you save at the Narshe Cave savepoint, then continue to play without saving up to level 99, then die, you will be back at the Narshe Cave with a level 99 Terra.
I guess that if you save at the Narshe Cave savepoint, then continue to play without saving up to level 99, then die, you will be back at the Narshe Cave with a level 99 Terra.
Oh. That's it? That won't help at all, since you'd have to record the powerleveling.
I agree with Wandering Road that it probably actually won't be as hard as it could be to plan, and I agree with those answers to Jyzero. I don't see how the Retort glitch could be useful either. Skipping Celes and Mimic Joker Doom both sound like winners to me.
Highness wrote:
I'd watch anything that is faster than the run on www.speeddemosarchive.com
If it beats that time, I think it's publishable here. Even though it can be improved. Problem with this run is that it will draw so much attention and imputs, which eventually will force the creator to re-start and re-make every single frame that someone feel is errornous. :D
That's some low standards. :P Seriously, out of all of the FF runs currently at SDA (plus the FF5 and FF8 that have been completed), trust me, FF3/6 is definitely the least optimized by far. Because of some of the things we know now, the TAS time should absolutely slaughter the SDA time.
Assassin wrote:
i just tried dying in the WoR overworld, and it is.
where is this SDA discussion, anyway? i can't find it.
We actually haven't talked FF3 in forever, but Jyzero is talking about this thread. It's about all the games on Ultima Garden, but you can add to the discussion if you want.
Wandering Road wrote:
Jyzero wrote:
Oh. That's it? That won't help at all, since you'd have to record the powerleveling.
In that thread, I listed the FF6 time with death abuse. Apparently this is only for the PS1 version anyway. What I want to know is, did the runner really level up Terra to 99 legitimately? Because, um, that would take a while and be pretty annoying. Maybe there's some glitch?
hmm.. i clicked the "ff_llc" (rather than "ff_ta") link on Ultima Gardens, and the last FF VI link here:
http://fieldofdreams.happy.nu/
which is:
http://fieldofdreams.happy.nu/ff6/ff6timeattack/ff6GTA2_cap0.html
seems to talk about playtime. the columns at the end of the 2nd and 5th chapters in particular go on and on and on about saving and the gameclock, but Google's and Babelfish's English translations are a little too broken for me to make sense of it.
also, they compare the memo save versus the memory card, though i dunno if their point is simply to show how one clobbers the other, or if there's some bug involved with one saving method.
the 3rd chapter talks about having somebody (Terra?) be levelled up to 99 in the "world after the collapsing", then dying. how that works or why they don't just use the Lete River in the WoB is beyond me.
anyway, i do believe i've found a new catchphrase: "Sweet strawberry shake"! ;)
the 3rd chapter talks about having somebody (Terra?) be levelled up to 99 in the "world after the collapsing", then dying. how that works or why they don't just use the Lete River in the WoB is beyond me.
I suppose if you can get to Terra in WoR fast enough, it'd be much faster to level her with the Exp. Egg against dinosaurs than the slow crawl that is the Lete River.
the 3rd chapter talks about having somebody (Terra?) be levelled up to 99 in the "world after the collapsing", then dying. how that works or why they don't just use the Lete River in the WoB is beyond me.
Sadly, it's probably quicker to play through the game to the WoR and fight a crapload of T-Rexes with Terra to lvl 99 than to use the Lete River trick. I believe it takes around 12 hours or so at normal speed just to get up around level 60 with that trick, and I'm sure there comes a point where you're not even gaining a level in an hour.
If you just play through the game normally from Lete to WoR, even hustling a bit, then using luck manipulation, experience egg and only Terra in a party, you could probably level her up more quickly.
What appears to be happening is this:
- Player saved at the first save point in Narshe
- Player then progresses through the game, leveling Terra to level 99
- Player then dies.
- Since FF6 works differently than other FFs in that when you die, you return back to your last save point, while losing any event progress, items, gold, or Esper learned spells (but keeping all your EXP), the player is now back at the beginning of the game, with hardly any time passed, and a level 99 Terra. He can then breeze through the rest of the game like it was nothing.
(EDIT: Of course, I should probably read the rest of the discussion first before I insert my opinions =P)
