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Posted: 1/9/2006 6:49 AM
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IdeaMagnate
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Be sure you never mess around when you're not recording, and if you find something save the gmv to a safe place before you do anything else. You never know when you'll find something.
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Posted: 1/11/2006 2:02 AM
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IdeaMagnate
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I'm going to slow down on this now that school's started. Once I get some things cleared up and measured, I'm going to carefully go over the tas, looking for optimizations I missed the first time and fixing the ones you all have been kind enough to point out. (I know the last boss fights could be better. They won't be hard and I didn't feel like being especially fancy on something I knew I wouldn't submit.) Any optimizations will always be welcome. The game is hexedit friendly as long as I redo the game up to a point where the music fades out, so changing s1a1 right before I submit is a possibility. I expect to redo a significant part of the game (between 30% and 50%) and will probably post updates as I optimize each stage. Depending on what I find and how much schoolwork I have, I'd estimate about a week between updates. Edit: I'm putting this on hold, probably until spring break. I don't have the time that both this and my classes deserve, and classes have priority. If someone is interested in making this submission-worthy, I'll share what I know. Otherwise, I'll pick it back up when I can find the time.
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Posted: 3/21/2006 4:43 AM
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Twisted_Eye
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Well ya know what, I've decided I don't really want to wait for the glitched-out run, and after playing around with it through the whole game one time I've decided I'll make the movement-glitch-centered movie! I've already done S1A1 here, and afterwards I show a couple glitches I found when Pulseman gets stuck in a wall because of volting while glitching. http://www.twistedeye.net/pulseman/Pulseman-Twisted%20Eye.gmv It finishes the stage at just over 47 seconds into the movie--I don't know how this compares to Nitsuja's and Ideamagnate's previous glitch runs through the area, so I'm ready for all improvement ideas! One glitch I don't show here yet is that in some areas where you leave the room horizontally, it'll let you leave early if you volt-glitch, like, even if Pulseman hasn't physically left the room yet. It doesn't seem to work in s1a1, but later on it's pretty useful! One great fact about the glitch: You can do it from nearly the very frame you come out of a dash if you hold right, making dashing even faster for static-charging than running, and you can do it in any confined space. This run's gonna have a looooot of dashing ;P EDIT: I think I just found a way to make the glitch even more powerful: Right after you jump from the skid: <>, <, <>, where <> is left and right at the same time and < is just left. This eliminates the need to wait 8-10 frames going up before you can glitch to the right, which can add some more distance to each jump and make me totally redo what I've done. Question is whether this makes the movie unpublishable due to having to press both at once, meaning no longer possible on the console. That extra little bit really does change the paths I take, so I need to figure out whether to continue the old glitch way or the new...
Posted: 3/23/2006 5:32 AM
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Twisted_Eye
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I'm up to the first bonus stage, it'll probably look just the same as Ideamagnate's, he did a great job. http://www.twistedeye.net/pulseman/Pulseman-Twisted%20Eye.gmv My movie is ahead by over a minute already, a 30% improvement, because of that movement glitch! ~7 seconds are saved from the boss fight in a couple ways*, and ~2 seconds are saved from using the glitch AFTER the fight (must see ;P ), but the rest is that wacky glitch, which is going to get even more helpful at certain points later on, so I'm looking to be under 25 minutes for the total run at this rate! * It so turns out that something I've suspected for a long time is true after all: Different attacks do different amounts of damage! I don't have any exact amounts, but I'm guessing that the backflip and the sweeping kick do less than a slice and a projectile, which I believe do even less the volteccer and also that little spurt you get if you try to volt but don't have a charge. It was proven first by my last hit, I went back and tried it as a backflip instead to be different and it didn't KILL HIM, but the spurt like originally DID. So after this, I compared the amount of hits in my movie (which used NO backflips) to Ideamagnate's (which used several) and it turns out I hit that hand boss 4 less times! EDIT: Backflip took 21 hits to kill, everything else took 11, so only backflip is different at all. A standing attack while underwater seems to only do half damage, also (pops up in s4a1 only), but otherwise, every possible form of attack does exactly the same amount of damage. OH. And I'm not using the Left+Right glitch, I'm not 100% sure whether it is allowed or not, so if it is agreed to let it go, I'll use it to optimize the movie later. I'll keep going on my merry way for now. Oh. And after this point I'll just put updates into my sig if this thread continues to not get responses--no need bumping it over and over, especially now that I have enough posts to vote on submissions ;P
Posted: 3/23/2006 10:32 AM
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>OH. And I'm not using the Left+Right glitch, I'm not 100% sure whether it is allowed or not, so if it is agreed to let it go, I'll use it to optimize the movie later. I'll keep going on my merry way for now. There are a lot of movies published which rely on the fact that you can press left and right at the same time (SMB2, MM1, Zelda3 to name a few famous ones). So that shouldn't be a problem. I say, if you're going to glitch it, glitch it all the way. What you have so far looks nice.
Posted: 3/23/2006 3:38 PM
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Twisted_Eye
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Alright, yeah, that's what I was thinking, but I was just wanting to make sure. Thanks! K. I've posted my work so far to my signature, I'm going to restart to use that l+r business, do a bit better job with my dashes, and clean up the bonus stages. And spend a couple days figuring out that level 2 boss, that jerk can't seem to be taken down in one round! >: (
Posted: 3/24/2006 2:50 AM
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IdeaMagnate
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Joined: 3/11/2005
Posts: 352
Location: Oregon
That's a great new trick. The movie desycs for me on the boss before the casino stage, but everything up to that looks very good (though I haven't picked it apart yet). I was aware that some hits do more damage than others and if I continue polishing the bugless run I'll confirm what you found. I also knew about the technique you used to leave the hand boss's room, but I wouldn't have expected it to be faster. Nice work. Good luck with the tree stump boss. I'd be surprised to se see him 1-rounded, but I was also surprised that you beat my s1a1 time by almost 3 seconds.
ideamagnate| .seen aqfaq <nothing happens> DK64_MASTER| .seen nesvideoagent * DK64_MASTER slaps forehead
Posted: 3/24/2006 3:58 AM
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Twisted_Eye
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My latest version beats my previous by one and a half more ;) 'cept the crazy game likes to desync at the slightest notice. Fixing desyncs is an incredibly tedious process, so far I've just redone everything twice, and now I'm redoing the movie altogether anyway BAH! OH and typo. My movie only goes through stage 2, hence the apparent desync.
Posted: 3/24/2006 7:42 AM
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Twisted_Eye
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Signature updated with Version 2.0 through the end of stage 1. Everything just plain looks better, and I've gained 5 seconds (304 frames) over my first go. I use the movement glitch during nearly every possible scenario, including the boss fight. But, man, I gotta tell ya, rewatching this glitch movie so much while checking for desyncs or better routes is a PAIN ON THE EYES
Posted: 3/26/2006 8:40 AM
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Twisted_Eye
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Alright, I'm all caught up to where v1.0 ended, that being the end of Stage 2 and its bonus stage. I'm 879 frames ahead of it, even! AND YES, I GOT THAT STAGE 2 BOSS IN ONE ROUND *pants, faints, falls over*
Posted: 3/27/2006 4:44 AM
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Twisted_Eye
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Updated. I increased the time on the boss by 99 frames and the time on the bonus stage by *1* FRAME OMG! The part that REALLY matters is a new glitch at the start of stage 4, with the "Water Can Destroy Pulseman Haw Haw Haaw" cutscene. Get the movie of it NOW while you still can, because, uh, it actually takes another 51 frames to get through this way, so it's not going in the final product ;P
Posted: 3/31/2006 5:56 PM
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Twisted_Eye
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I've been forgetting to update my sig, sorry. I'm through the stage 6 boss now, though I'm gonna redo the fight. And I think the first fight with the guy in stage 3 can be done faster using the technique used on the end boss and boss 4. And part of me wants to see if I can get that last little bit of Bonus Stage 1 just right after all. But otherwise YEAH. Goin great. Oh and save states included this time. I haven't hit the 17 minute mark yet, so 25 minutes for the whole thing may just still be possible.
Posted: 4/1/2006 7:07 AM
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KDR_11k
Joined: 1/23/2006
Posts: 352
Location: Germany
It's definitely fast, you clearly break the game a LOT. But somehow the glitch jumping ends up being rather repetitive, especially since it allows you to ignore almost everything in the level.
Posted: 4/1/2006 1:32 PM
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I like it a lot. I noticed that your filename said (JUE) [h]. If this is the name of your ROM, it's a hacked version. So far it plays back correctly in (what I think is) the official version, but I suggest that you change it so your submission won't be dismissed on some technicality.
Posted: 4/5/2006 6:36 AM
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IdeaMagnate
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I noticed that there's a variable number of frames (4-8?) that you spend on the left side of the screen when glitching. Have you tried to do anything about the variablilty? It could be that glitching asap always ends up moving you farther than delaying a frame or two, but the high speed while glitching might make it worth optimizing for this. I'm sure I'll find other stuff, but I really like your tas so far too. You're doing much better than I would have done. Be sure to give me a chance to go over this well before submitting it. If I can't submit a low-glitch version, I'll at least try to help with the glitchful one.
ideamagnate| .seen aqfaq <nothing happens> DK64_MASTER| .seen nesvideoagent * DK64_MASTER slaps forehead
Posted: 4/6/2006 12:00 AM
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Twisted_Eye
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The glitching does work differently a lot of the time, sometimes a simple <>, <, <>, > well go and sometimes you have to hold those keys one or two frames to get the earliest shot, so there are definitely times when it seems I go left more than usual. Then there are times where I'm merely waiting for Pulseman to jump higher than some obstacle, so it doesn't really matter how far left I go before I slingshot back. AND there are times where I intentionally don't jump high enough to drop short so I can get better placement or, more importantly, not run into a meanie, but I'm sure you already figured that. Basically, though, I always do the ASAP method first, and if Pulseman doesn't turn around and fly right I hold an extra frame for one of them until it works. (And then there's the high probability that when I STARTED the run I was less experienced at what I'm doing, that's highly HIGHly noticable in my DoaE run haha) But anyway YEAH progress has been slower recently, the autoscrollers autoKILL if you press A while glitching, so I've gotta dance the whole time like in your low-glitch version. I start the level around 17 minutes into the movie and I'm not entirely sure whether I'll be done at the 25 minute mark because of those darn autoscrollers! But yeah, I'll post V1 of the finished version when it's ready for ya. Oh and Truncated: You're right! Thanks for catching that, I'll use the proper rom from now on since the movie works perfectly on it as well.
Posted: 4/6/2006 3:50 AM
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IdeaMagnate
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Joined: 3/11/2005
Posts: 352
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FYI, the autoscrollers took me about 5:30 and you could save time by avoiding lag if you wanted to. Your dancing should be fun to watch. ;)
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Posted: 4/6/2006 5:39 AM
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Twisted_Eye
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hehe yeah, I can save 2-3 frames by glitching out of the screen when it finally finishes and then another few frames by avoiding lag. And then one of the non-autoscroll areas will be sped up by the glitch, and then the first of the last two bosses can save a couple frames by being dead-on on the last two punks. Hopefully the last boss will be weak to the volt-less spark like bosses 3 and 4 were, so maybe some time saved there. but I think to hit the 25 minute mark I'll need to squeeze more improvements from earlier in the movie, and then somehow fix the desyncing. I'm hoping that once I fix the desync it's just a matter of repetition to get the rest to work; it won't exactly be fun, but it's inarguably possible. Hmmm. What I could do is figure out when it automatically lags itself, delete every one of those frames, hex-edit in the improved areas like 1-Bonus and 3-First Boss, and then force frames back in on the frames where it auto lags....that'd be a good start hopefully, and then all I can think of is that perhaps during real game lag frames it might desync... well it won't be easy no matter what. OH BTW IM, for your unglitch run, I found a trick for ya: in the last non-boss area of stage 5 you can dash THROUGH the first two angled floors by starting from the straight ground next to it, it's especially speedy at the very start of the stage. It's fun! Try it! All the cool kids are doing it! ...anyway yeah, One time I went right through one of the angled floors while falling but I haven't since replicated it. Anyway, updated my sig, it goes a little ways into 7-2
Posted: 4/15/2006 5:23 PM
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IdeaMagnate
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I've been hacking around on Gens and have managed to get a ram search working. You're mostly right about how much damage hits do, but some of the bosses take more damage than they're supposed to if you hit them quickly enough. The stage 3 intro boss has 30 hp, and your hits do damage as follows: 2,4,10,2,2,2,10. The casino boss has 45 hp, and your damage is even better: 4,10,8,8,10,2. I've tested the stage 3 intro boss, and if you go slowly damage is normal. This could be an interesting place for optimiziation.
ideamagnate| .seen aqfaq <nothing happens> DK64_MASTER| .seen nesvideoagent * DK64_MASTER slaps forehead
Posted: 4/15/2006 8:25 PM
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Twisted_Eye
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Yeah, I've already figured that doing the same quick-zap routine would be faster, but the trick would be keeping Pulseman close enough so that he can keep hitting him on that scrolling stage. I haven't seriously tested anything with that boss yet, it's been hard finding the time and motivation to keep going right now. I should update my sig. mmmm I like the sounds of that memory searcher, though, especially as far as boss damage is concerned!
Posted: 4/16/2006 2:37 AM
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IdeaMagnate
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I'll post the code once I get a few more of Nitsuja's changed ported and get the code in a presentable state, though it's very much *nix-only. If enough people care to ask, it shouldn't be difficult for one of the coders familiar with Gens/win32 to make changes there.
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Posted: 4/18/2006 4:18 AM
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IdeaMagnate
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In Alaska area 1, I noticed you punched a snowball instead of flashing and using the temporary invincibility to go through it. Did you test whether this plus the 14 frames of lag from an enemy explosion is faster than flashing?
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Posted: 4/22/2006 5:10 AM
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Twisted_Eye
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IdeaMagnate wrote:
In Alaska area 1, I noticed you punched a snowball instead of flashing and using the temporary invincibility to go through it. Did you test whether this plus the 14 frames of lag from an enemy explosion is faster than flashing?
No I didn't, I imagine navigating around it and staying on track would be tricky, but it's definitely an idea I'll look into. I'm all DONE. ...Well, I haven't done any improvements yet, but the movie does go through to the end. The final frame is at 25:25:25. :) ...However, without finding a new glitch to exploit I'm certain that 25 minutes is not possible. I may be able to cut off a hundred frames, maybe two hundred, but 1525 just ain't gonna happen, so that's unfortunate. And if hex editting proves wayyy too troublesome I may not even do that, but I'm not jumping to that conclusion quite yet. Possible improvements I've found:
  • The first bonus stage, I should be able to get it better--can save 59 frames
  • Stage 2, last non-boss area, I could've cut the last glitch 3, 4 frames earlier (closer to the ground obviously) because if I have to glitch out of the room, I'll cover all that ground instantly anyway--Again, first casino part of Stage 3, and second area should be faster to glitch out the wall instead of bounce up
  • Stage 3's first boss; I'm fairly certain I can do it better.--Straight sparking isn't fast enough here, but frame-precise movements and no-glitching can give a 17 frame improvement[/i]
  • Stage 4, piston room, maybe less lag if I don't charge right away? It might knock off best path though to do it later...
  • The last nonboss of stage 6, the ending, I might squeeze a couple frames by volt-glitching through the last wall, but it'd take some work to set up so it's iffy--saves 86 frames![/i]
  • Unnecessary glitching. EVERY time Pulseman changes the glitch's direction, there is one frame of lag. Jumping back and forth really quick across the screen without any real benefit, then, cost me time. Removing these bits (other than some of the 'entertaining' ones in the autoscrollers) could save like one or two dozen frames.
  • Other lag points, like your snowball suggestion for example. --Same thing happens to a penguin in stage 6--redoing Stage 5a1 altogether, your suggestion saved ~30 frames and I can just do the area better completely as well[/i]
  • There are a couple points where I spend one or two frames at the start of 'cinematics' screwing with the scene, (Stages 1 and 7) that may cut a couple frames more beyond. Might be worth keeping anyway.--Stage 1's glitch is actually one frame faster than otherwise, but Stage 7's takes ~30 frames[/i]
So yeah I'm not expecting to gain an incredible amount of time back should I attempt the redoing. But yes! Tell me what you all think! (I've included the save states again with the movie this time for anyone that didn't get the previous zip) .....and YES the damage I take happens AFTER the movie file ends ;P --edit: Yeah okay so I've already got a couple hundred frames saved and I haven't even looked into the excess glitching. I could very well redo all of the movie from the penguin part in Stage 6 on and then hex-edit in everything from the ship miniboss in 7 and onward back in, and the same for S5a1 and S1Bonus. Hex-editting other parts of the movie for <10 frames of improvement would probably be a lot of work, though. If anyone can find anything else that they think can save time (or even parts that just plain look sloppy) let me know in the next couple days, because after these improvements are in and the movie works front-back then I'm gonna submit 'er!
Posted: 5/7/2006 2:31 AM
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IdeaMagnate
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Looks like a good time to bring this back. I'm improving my previous low-bug version. So far I'm done with the first boss and have gained 776 (!) frames. More than half that's from the boss fight, but everything else is faster too.
ideamagnate| .seen aqfaq <nothing happens> DK64_MASTER| .seen nesvideoagent * DK64_MASTER slaps forehead
Posted: 5/9/2006 5:11 AM
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IdeaMagnate
Player (81)
Joined: 3/11/2005
Posts: 352
Location: Oregon
If someone could figure out if/how walljumps work in this game, it'd help the entertainment value of the very long wait in Stage 7 considerably. I tried it briefly, but didn't succeed and don't really know what I'm doing. Advice would be equally welcomer.
ideamagnate| .seen aqfaq <nothing happens> DK64_MASTER| .seen nesvideoagent * DK64_MASTER slaps forehead
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