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Editor, Active player (297)
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qFox wrote:
i'll do a proper run some day.... :)
Is this progressing somehow?
Joined: 4/25/2004
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not right now, famtasia recording is annoying me :(
qfox.nl
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ok http://members.home.nl/qfox/kirby.level1.qfox.fmv level1 complete i started out pretty good compared to your vid, but i just cant match your speed of chapter 4, and i'm one "tick" behind the boss as well (i have tried many many times). i have started out on my own, then compared the result with your vid (often disappointed ;) i've used some of the tricks i saw (like the sub-boss in chapter 4) overall i probably saved most time in the first chapter, obtaining the mix, and in the end i'm just a few seconds faster then you (4 or something) i'm annoyed by having to watch my entire speedrun a gazillion times just to check speed, or to catch a savegame or whatever so i dont know when i'll continue. bisqwit can you check whether you can actually play this fmv, so i wont be doing this for nothing :\ i think i have the right rom this time. ty oh yeah and i get the 7jump chapter finishes by manual editing (i've concluded that it's just not possible otherwise, at least not with my emu)
qfox.nl
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It works. A few comments: - Use the 60 fps patch and very slow speeds. You can get the 7jump effortlessly. - Your 1st chapter was relatively slower than my newest try. I started making an USA version Kirby timeattack some time ago, because I didn't feel it right to use a faster-playing PAL version (and I also like the USA version music better). Here's the FMV. Also, I was a bit better at doors. But I'm not far and I'm not going to play it for a while... Otherwise your movie looked very promising. There were a few lags that disturbed me but I guess my movie had the same. I tried to avoid creating sprites on the screen (like the smoke clouds) when it would have slowed down the game. The movie for USA version is of course going to play 20% slower than the European version, but that's the real speed.
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That link you provided leads to a 403 error.
Editor, Active player (297)
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Bladegash wrote:
That link you provided leads to a 403 error.
Oops. I forgot to fix the link and to copy the file. Fixed.
Joined: 4/25/2004
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hm i dont know about the differences in roms i DID notice however, that i suddenly was unable to execute a move that i was able to execute before (crossing a 3 block obstacle, in two wheels, rather then 3). the 60fps patch makes the application behaviour very erradic, and heavy on system resources, especially with altering running speed (which i use a lot to get to the last part done fast (speed 999, skip 999 frames)). but if you never played kirby before you created that first speedrun, i bow to your skills :p the stuff so far cost me about.... 6 hours i think, and look at what i got... btw, your fmv desyncs on both roms i've got. is the difference much? what did you mean by lags, and how did you do better at doors? i turn off music, for one i've played most of this at 25% so music is suck anyhow, second, the music throws off the emulator when it runs at high speeds, and third i dont need it either way :)
qfox.nl
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ok i'm using the 60fps version now, and started over once again, going very slow (even slower then before) figuring some things out, stuff thats faster etc. while doing so i noticed that the trick i mentioned before was still possible, just needs a precise timing (i dont know if that's due to the rom, or simply me not doing it perfect enough 2 days ago, but w/e) ok if you want to practice this, its a small trick but can save you a few frames, even half of seconds: in scene 2 of the first level, there is a three level obstacle (bisqwit jumps over it in his vid, its right in the beginning) wheel towards it, and time the re-wheel on impact perfectly with the impact. if you do this properly, you will land ON the second level, rather then hitting the corner of it. if you do the next re-wheel perfect as well, you will jump with about "half a kirby" over the highest level. if you dont do it correct you'll shortly skimp over the top, and if you do it once you will just miss the top. now i've did a few re-runs to see whats faster, because the airtime appears to be slower, but in fact its not, at least according to my tests. i have the bad luck that in my run the last enemy always ignites so there's a few laggy frames there (but all the testruns had that so np there). to do or not to do this trick perfect on this hill was a matter of about 7 frames (not much, but hey) the plus is that this means you can get OVER 2 level obstacles, which is profitable in level 2 i believe. anyhow... :) my first two quick attempts stranded on 48s for level 1 (2888 and 2880 frames) but this one is going to be much faster (i think), its about 4 seconds faster then the level 1 in the vid :p
qfox.nl
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i finally managed to do what you did, that fast slide over the gap into a float thing. very nice my final for level 1.1 is now 47s 2839f moving on :p
qfox.nl
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I'm having trouble trying to read your text because it doesn't have correct punctuation and capital letters. So I'll only reply to a few points only. Regarding desync, yes, the difference is much. If you have a 10 second long sequence, the USA version plays it in 10 seconds and the European version plays it in 8.3 seconds. A movie designed for one version will be completely out of sync in the other version. Regarding lag using patched version - don't use scaling. Set the window size to 1x. It works best.
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
!!!!!! ok, i had a great run, and i was looking back at it, and suddenly it went out of sync (at the skimp over the water, first gap with water you encounter). so i re-did that untill the end, and the number of frames to the end was EXACTLY the same, so i pasted the begin part to the rest i had. as offset to paste i used the jump (you were correct, it is much easier in 60fps) to the clouds. these too were an exact match. at first it looked good, the re-wheel timings in part 1.2 were perfect, but then at the first mini-boss fight he desyncs (which is a damn shame, that was a GREAT boss fight :() so are there any known desync issues? because this is even worse then anything else... PS. keep in mind that i couldnt playback your fmv either...
qfox.nl
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qFox wrote:
so i pasted the begin part to the rest i had
Generally, you can't do this.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Joined: 4/25/2004
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hmmm its only because for some reason it desynced one, appearantly, one byte (but no matter i had to re-do the whole next part anyways). but even in such a case its not allowed? and i didnt know it wasnt allowed at all here?
qfox.nl
Joined: 4/25/2004
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ok. bisqwit, my new attempt :) http://members.home.nl/qfox/qfox.kirby.1.1.and.1.2.fmv look particulary at level 1.2 scene 1. the re-wheel over the first obstacle is the trick i mentioned. the effect is noticeable particulary in this scene, because later, this trick makes wheeling more effective then run/jumping (i have tried both, and wheeling proved slightly better). try to to the part at the cannon, that's not very easy to do. as you can see, i've taken your advice and tried to avoid destroying enemies where possible (although sometimes randomness makes this impossible at some times, where it is possible at other times...). also i believe i've taken every door "perfect". this one is 3 secs faster then the one of two days ago (for the two levels) :)
qfox.nl
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
omg after trying to beat the first main boss (that tree) faster and faster i suddenly rememberd the "reverse wheel trick", where you change the direction while wheeling mid-air. this trick shaves off a few frames while going down (combined with un-wheel and re-wheeling, which was even faster). it shaved off about 3 seconds when doing the main boss. when you hit the tree, and bounce off, rewheel and THEN change direction. you'll "slide" down the tree but still hit it (when the timer allows you). this way you can bump up and slide down. you can also save time (frames) going for the staff. kirby always walks to a specific space (horizontal). if you are sliding down with the last hit, you can wheel towards the middle, to make the ending just a little shorter.
qfox.nl
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
allright, this is my run for level 1 and 2 (including the bosses). http://members.home.nl/qfox/kirby.level1+2.qFox.fmv i've also written my comments per level and some tips for anyone else who wants to attempt this game (mostly because i got bored, i had to replay the vid so many times because i screwed up getting a save at level 2.4 and 2.5). your vid was a great help bisqwit (also the only vid i could find on the net, aside from a few console files, but they are useless to compare with). some of the stuff you did i would probably never have done if i hadnt seen it. i hope you like this vid so far :) except for two minibossfights, i tried to be at least as fast or faster then you did per act. i've tried to do some "fun idle" stuff (reverse direction in mid-air, etc). but i could've done much more. i usually dont think about doing it untill i watch the results :) tricks: beginners: - double forward is dash - avoid enemies where possible, they cost you about 2 frames delay per kill - the more sprites, the slower you go. this includes enemies, but especially goes for sparks, fireball effects (from that one enemy), ice effects, fast cannon-fire, caving-wall-effects and explosions. try to avoid these at all cost! - avoid: enemies where possible, enemies to use their abilities like beam and sparkle (this is a huge random factor, replay slightly different and the enemy might not use his effect!), breaking of blocks, slow floating, life-bar-powerups (tomato, drink), getting hit. - hi-jump appears not to reset your dash-status (like a normal jump does) - water levels suck. - wheel is your friend - fireball is your friend when wheel is not - randomization is only altered by YOUR keystrokes. so if you want something that is "random" differently, push different keys etc - two power giving enemies sucked in gives you mix (with slowdown this gives you any power you wish for). there are many opportunities to get mix, use them to your advantage (look ahead!) - the two beams in begin of level 1.1 are mix-able! this gives you wheel from the start :) - changing/absorbing a skill is slow. - wheel and fireball are probably your most used skills. hi-jump can be too, since it sometimes gives an opportunity for fast ascends. - UFO, while fun, is slow. - there is a glitch to keep UFO, even at the end of a level (finish a level, re-enter it, get ufo, press select and BEFORE the icon leaves the screen, but AFTER the star leaves kirby, press start and exit). incase you care :p - for the glitch to get infinite MIKE's (the 3x use mass destruction skill), at boss 2, kill the boss with 2 remaining mikes, and use mike on the spot where the staff-piece should appear. you'll pick up the staff, and the game will not update the mike uses counter. you'll keep mike untill you die or loose it. (not really useable in a speedrun, since you have a mix opportunity, the falling stones, before that nasty flying miniboss in 3.2) - for frame comparisson, take black screens as offset. the black screens between acts and levels, this way you can perfectly check your speed on a frame-level. - minibossfights are VERY random. - enemies respond differently to your vicinity, some turn around when you get close. - at level finishes, the "lower" jump to platform 7 is fastest. (there's also a slightly higher jump to platform 7, this is obviously slightly slower). advanced: - reverse wheel in air does not alter direction, and does not cause bumps to walls (it does deal dmg to enemies, and i believe more effective as well!) - changing direction in mid-air will mean you'll go that direction immidiately when touching ground (you can make "180 turns" over small gaps using this) - re-wheeling when an obstacle is hit, can be done perfect, this way you can overcome a 2 "block heigh" obstacle in 1 re-wheel, rather then two. press b exactly on impact, and hold it as long as possible to get the best result. - slide from edge for speed, possible to combo with a speed-float - a normal, level, slide is slower then dash - you can un-wheel in a very short distance, about 1.5 kirbies wide! while wheeling, press the opposite direction and un-wheel. this can be exploited a lot with miniboss fights (best example is the freeze boss in 1.4, you can use this trick right of him at the start of the fight!) - when getting a piece of the staff (boss killed), kirby WILL walk to the horizontal middle of the screen. try to land as close to this point as possible. 1.1: first example of mix (done quite fast). second act shows the profit of re-wheel trick (landing ON the second platform, rather then bumping it), but i later figured i should have tried sliding over the gap. third act shows slide-speed-float trick over gaps. 1.2: nice miniboss fight. 1.3: curse that jump creature at the end of act 3 :@. you'll wheel over the gap (onto the second platform) in the last act, but only if you hit the platform before (you can actually miss it if you wheel perfect). this was simply the fastest. 1.4: miniboss can be done slightly faster, but i couldnt reproduce bisqwits exact speed. i do make up for it with a nice finish :p watch kirby go leftright in the third act :) 1.5: boss might be able to be done slightly faster. the waiting period at the start is because you wont damage him if you go straight away. was lucky on the final hit precisely below, kirby always walks to the same horizontal position, thats why i make the seemingly long jump at the end. (at this point about 11 sec faster) 2.1: this is the best way to cross that gap in act one, period. purposely missing enemies in act 2 (watch how kirby goes thru the umbrella). 2.2: miniboss can be done "much" faster, but after many attempts and a desync of a good attempt i stayed with this one. in the end wheeling below is faster then going for the top. 2.3: i hate underwaterlevels (act 2). act 3 shows some nice wheel tricks. miniboss fight went nice (after desyncing TWICE), entering the door with some fireworks ;) 2.4: 6 acts! notice the quick left puff to avoid killing the flying enemy. miniboss might be improvable (random factor). last act is a sucky one, after trying several approaches (wheeling/running combos) this way appeared to be the best. 2.5: the two enemies i didnt kill in act 1 were purposely done so and not as straightforward as they might seem (tne un-wheel needed to be perfect, as well as the re-wheel to jump over the enemy). i have tried scene 3 completely differently. alot of jump/dashing/slide, but the only succesfull attempt was 200 frames slower then my fastest wheel version. also i couldnt reproduce the walk-dash version again (i couldnt get past that sword anymore, CURSE him :( that one time i managed to slip up right of him and go on without getting hit). wheeling the end part is slower then dashing it. its best to get hi-jump in act 4. try to demolish as few blocks as possible (explosion = slow), you can go up in a straight line. hi-jump will come in handy with the boss and wheel can be gotten back in 3.1. i took the powerup-delay for granted since the alternative (other side) was slower. 2.6: boss, i think i've done it pretty accuratly fast. i have tried several times for a mike, but as he only gets one painting done i havent gotten one so far. i usually got umbrella or cloud :( at first i wanted to do a mid-air dance (hi-jump for the staff, land on high platform) but this cost too much time as i couldnt land close to the edge :( and then i got this finish so i didnt even bother anymore :p (at this point about 24 sec faster) mix possibles (good ones): 1.1: act 1, first two beams (run the first beam offscreen then walk back so it turns your way). use this to get wheel from start. 1.3: act 3, the two flying fireballs at the begin. no real use, you should still have wheel 2.1: act 3, umbrella and beam (might be too slow). probably no use, but in case you gave up the wheel to beat the tree faster (you shouldnt have...) 3.1: act 1 umbrella and sword, act 2 with the stones 3.2: act 2, halfway there are 2 stones falling (one from above the spike). act 4 (tricky) the two freezeblowers. 3.4: act 3 (after miniboss), sword and umbrella 3.5: act 1, sword and sparkle (preferred over 3.4 because its probably faster)
qfox.nl
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qFox wrote:
allright, this is my run for level 1 and 2 (including the bosses). http://members.home.nl/qfox/kirby.level1+2.qFox.fmv
404... (And yes, I know I replied to a 8 months old thread.)
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
What, thinking of studying it so you can work on a new run? :) Gosh, I don't know if qFox would still be around.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
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Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Baxter wrote:
Basically I'm trying a "as fast as possible"-run now, with no ristrictions like sword only, or anything like that. So I'll stop posting here, I'll use this instead: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57
Had there been any progress on this? I had a thought about this game - it seems to me that the tornado is far superior to the wheel in terms of getting around quickly. It has very fast horizontal speed (possibly better than the wheel), decent vertical speed (much better than the wheel), very good vertical control (much better than the wheel), and decent horizontal control (much better than the wheel). The only bad thing is the lack of cancellation, but that only matters at the very end of areas. And it seems to make Kirby pretty invincible while spinning, right up until you regain control to start a new spin.... Anyone know which bosses will pose a threat / other potential problems for a tornado-abusing run aiming to be as fast as possible? edit: WIP run
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 1203
Bisqwit wrote:
qFox wrote:
allright, this is my run for level 1 and 2 (including the bosses). http://members.home.nl/qfox/kirby.level1+2.qFox.fmv
404... (And yes, I know I replied to a 8 months old thread.)
Possibly because he didn't URLEncode the + sign? No matter, as near as I can tell his webspace doesn't exist any more.
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Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
@nitsuja This is very interesting indeed. I have tested tornado a LITTLE, but I didn't think it would be faster than wheel horizontally, and due to the lack of cancellation I supposed wheel was faster. Since I was faster than wheel, without wheel, I supposed my strategy was best (without wheel or tornado, at least for the first level). BUT... it seems that your wip IS faster than my progress... I kinda stopped working on it, at a point where I had to chose between 2 power-ups, which is quit a while ago (right now, I'm pretty happy I did, since your wip is a little faster). My WIP plays throught the first, and nearly throught the second world. I was wondering where tornado saved time, so I compaired the times of your wip, with mine: (door1 is the frame the screen turns totally black after entering door1, 1:2:4 is the frame the screen turns totally black faster finishing the fourth room, in the second level, of the first world) Room__Frame my WIP__Frame your WIP__Room difference__Total difference ======================================================= Door1__560___________443____________-117____________-117 1:1:1___1222__________1455___________+350___________+233 1:1:2___1755__________1987___________-1______________+232 1:2:3___2336__________2517___________-51_____________+181 Door2__3089__________3278___________+8______________+189 1:2:1___3722__________3819___________-92_____________+97 1:2:2___4524__________4727___________+106___________+203 1:2:3___5239__________5339___________-103____________+100 1:2:4___5629__________5695___________-34_____________+66 Door3__6384__________6449___________-1______________+65 1:3:1___7045__________6987___________-123____________-58 1:3:2___7754__________7491___________-205____________-263 1:3:3___8160__________7846___________-51_____________-314 1:3:4___8773__________8385___________-74_____________-388 Door4__9497__________9112___________+3______________-385 1:4:1___9770__________9472___________+87____________-298 1:4:2___10330_________10013__________-19_____________-317 1:4:3___10738_________10449__________+28____________-289 1:4:4___11421_________11096__________-36_____________-325 DoorB__12204_________11881__________+2_____________-323 Boss___13312_________13084__________+95_____________-228 Notes * I know I lose 1 frame for entering the first door... you might be wondering why your version is 117 frames faster, this i s due to a soft reset... since Bisqwit didn't have a soft reset in his published movie, I figured I wouldn't too. This makes my WIP of world 1 111 frames slower, instead of 228 frames. * I win frames at every boss battle. * I lose frames at nearly every normal room (not at all). * I'm faster in 1:1:1 since I don't mix here. * I'm alot slower in 1:3:2 since I mix here. Here's my WIP: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/186/Baxter%20KIRBYADV.fcm
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
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What was that trick Nitsuja used to cross the pool fast?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
Not really a trick... he used tornado right before falling in the water. It looks really fast, but it's only slightly faster, since the have to swim up, which takes the longest time for me aswell...
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Hmm, now I'm not so sure that I won't lose all the time gained in the upcoming boss fights compared to using the hammer. And switching abilities to try speeding them up will probably cost at least 111 frames on its own. (The tornado might not move faster than the wheel at full speed, but it doesn't require winding up backwards to get started or slamming into things to go upward, and it's better for clearing out lag, so it ends up effectively being faster except in certain areas that were designed for using the wheel in.)
Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646
One thing you should try using that I've noticed is you can go faster in midair if you slide off edges. It doesn't last too long, but it's still useful.
I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.
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