- when cloning link, make sure the "real" link is standing on the correct pad. After the clones disappear, the remaining Link should stand in the spot closest to your next destination.
Got that covered, mostly.
well, not in the royal crypt it seems. Wouldn't it be faster to stand on the northern fields? (for both keys).
one more question: how far do you have to walk into the swamp to trigger the pegasus boots quest? IIRC it appeared without me drowning first.
btw, was TSA talking about the faster splitting technique or the faster charging technique? I know I didn't get the technique you got, but I know I received something that made me charge faster.
my savegame (europe version, I hope that doesn't matter)
standing still, hitting B at frame 0
frame 79: the green clone-bar appears
frame 221 (+142): the green clone-bar is full and flashes white
your savegame after getting the faster splitting:
standing still, hitting B at frame 0
frame 118: the green clone-bar appears
frame 190 (+72): the green clone-bar is full and flashes white
(I might be off a few frames, because I counted at 6% speed, but you get the point)
It took you slightly more than 6000 frames for getting the technique (didn't count the time for getting the kinstone piece).
Fun with numbers:
- in the wind palace, you split 5 times. One of them didn't save time as you were waiting for the moving platform. Let's count 5 anyway.
- in the boss battle, you split 4 times. The first one didn't save time, as you had to wait for the eyes to pop up. Let's count 4 anyway.
- in the dark castle, you split 7 times. Although instead of splitting to hit those yellow switches, you might be able to use bomb+spin attack (no idea if they're close enough there). Let's count 7 anyway.
- 4 times against Vaati's second form.
- 4 times against his final form, although I doubt they save time there. I'll count them anyway.
Whereever you can charge early, you save less than the difference of 70 frames, but I'll count you 70 frames for each of the 24 splits.
That is less than 1680 frames saved for >6000 frames wasted.
Unless it's possible to get that technique way earlier, it doesn't save time. Neither does the 'faster spin-attack'-one.
I like how you squeeze your clones through tight spaces where they're not supposed to fit. :)
Nice shortcut in the wind palace. That was unexpected.
oh, and for the final version: don't forget to entertain the viewer during pauses, and please try to make your movement look smoother.
example? you enter a moving platform. you wait. you adjust yourself a couple of pixels towards the edge. you wait. you adjust yourself another few pixels...
use one motion and it'll look better. Start walking towards the edge at the last possible frame without losing speed, and it'll look perfect (and will increase your rerecord count a lot ;))
I'd be happy to review your progress if you post WIPs of your final version.
- when cloning link, make sure the "real" link is standing on the correct pad. After the clones disappear, the remaining Link should stand in the spot closest to your next destination.
Got that covered, mostly.
well, not in the royal crypt it seems. Wouldn't it be faster to stand on the northern fields? (for both keys).
In the case of clones, they can pick up items laying about, so it doesn't really matter where I stand (point in case, I get the left key in the royal crypt while standing nowhere near it).
one more question: how far do you have to walk into the swamp to trigger the pegasus boots quest? IIRC it appeared without me drowning first.
Apparantely next to nowhere, i more closely watched TSA's run and he walked in for less than a half second and walked back out, and he got the 'get pegasus boots yo' message.
btw, was TSA talking about the faster splitting technique or the faster charging technique? I know I didn't get the technique you got, but I know I received something that made me charge faster.
Faster splitting I'm sure, as its used in several locations, and would save boss time, at least in a regular run.
my savegame (europe version, I hope that doesn't matter)
standing still, hitting B at frame 0
frame 79: the green clone-bar appears
frame 221 (+142): the green clone-bar is full and flashes white
your savegame after getting the faster splitting:
standing still, hitting B at frame 0
frame 118: the green clone-bar appears
frame 190 (+72): the green clone-bar is full and flashes white
(I might be off a few frames, because I counted at 6% speed, but you get the point)
It took you slightly more than 6000 frames for getting the technique (didn't count the time for getting the kinstone piece).
Yeah, that was one of the things I was going to time later, to see if it'd even be worth the time spent vs the time saved by not getting it.
I like how you squeeze your clones through tight spaces where they're not supposed to fit. :)
Nice shortcut in the wind palace. That was unexpected.
The clones seem to have a variable 'through' duration. Go right into a wall and they'll dissapear for sure, infringe on the wall for only a moment and they wont :)
That was the shortcut I was referring to, saved at least 1 minute on its own, and might be console replicable.
oh, and for the final version: don't forget to entertain the viewer during pauses, and please try to make your movement look smoother.
example? you enter a moving platform. you wait. you adjust yourself a couple of pixels towards the edge. you wait. you adjust yourself another few pixels...
use one motion and it'll look better. Start walking towards the edge at the last possible frame without losing speed, and it'll look perfect (and will increase your rerecord count a lot ;))
Smoother movement is a will do, but I suck at viewer entertainment :\
I'd be happy to review your progress if you post WIPs of your final version.
Shall certainly do, same as the way I'm currently doing it, one dungeon at a time (though I might do it dungeon > crap > dungeon seperately, so the crap is optimized without having to go back and do it all again).
Just checked now, and it looks like i'll be skipping the pot breaker too, since from the looks of it I only broke 34 pots, and it takes ~1200 frames to get (each pot lift/throw is ~42 frames, vs a sword swing of about ~15, so it only saved something in the range of 850 frames, so it doesn't appear to be worth it either). That wont save all that much time though, but if AnotherGamer is right, I should be able to utilize bombs a bit later for something so that'll save 4 pots.
Faster splitting I'm sure, as its used in several locations, and would save boss time, at least in a regular run.
you'd still have to split around 90 times to make it worth it. I don't think TSA used it that often.
Just checked now, and it looks like i'll be skipping the pot breaker too
you can also get rid of pots without the sword. namely Gust Jar, Cane, jumping from a ledge onto the pot, or just picking it up. You'll see what's faster, for single pots mostly picking up, or the cane if equipped. For multiple pots the Jar might be an option.
on another note, I just compared travel speed of rolling vs. rolling+roll attack. Just rolling is slightly faster. With your darknut strategies, there's no reason to get the roll attack either.
Faster splitting I'm sure, as its used in several locations, and would save boss time, at least in a regular run.
you'd still have to split around 90 times to make it worth it. I don't think TSA used it that often.
In a normal run it could potentially save time, as you dont have the luxury of rerecording to avoid being hit and losing your charge.
Just checked now, and it looks like i'll be skipping the pot breaker too
you can also get rid of pots without the sword. namely Gust Jar, Cane, jumping from a ledge onto the pot, or just picking it up. You'll see what's faster, for single pots mostly picking up, or the cane if equipped. For multiple pots the Jar might be an option.
Hmm, cane will prove useful in that respect maybe, but gust jar probably wont, given the small amount of time it's actually equipped for.
on another note, I just compared travel speed of rolling vs. rolling+roll attack. Just rolling is slightly faster. With your darknut strategies, there's no reason to get the roll attack either.
Since I never got the roll attack, that isn't a problem anyways.
I just started on the final now, it looks like it'll be hell with the optimizations, but at least the rolling wont be insanely annoying to optimize, given turbo r does infact give the fastest possible rolling :)
I might have the first wip done today, going to the beginning (or end) of the first dungeon.
I can't wait for this to be done. You should be getting under 2:20...which means 2:30 is realistic since you aren't abusing emu-only bugs (like ALttP did).
And splitting does not save more than a few mins at most, but I meant the ability to, when you "roll", press B to "skid" - if you do it on Darknuts, you insta-kill them with a "spin attack" when you land the blow.
Just go watch my battle against them before Vaati. How long was just THAT room? Cut it down to mere seconds...
Now you get what I am saying.
I can't wait for this to be done. You should be getting under 2:20...
I'm thinking that's unlikely, given the amount of time that i save will at most be 3 minutes, unless i find another shortcut like the one in the palace of winds.
Now you get what I am saying.
I'm afraid I have no idea what you're saying really. I tried that against the triple darknut lot, but pressing b does nothing, unless i have the roll attack, which does something similar to what you said (roll, attack, it spin attacks but doesn't kill since it hits the shield).
Your fight against the triple darknuts was about a minute and a half, mine was just under 14 seconds using a nice method I found (which works on all darknuts, except the one that's faster to knock off the edge).
Care to show me what you mean in a vbm?
since i probably wont be done for quite a while yet, here is an avi of the triple darknut fight for reference (only good for 7 days/25 downloads). I figured your way required a scroll technique, since I couldn't get the method you mentioned to work without one.
edit: link has expired now, so dont bother clicking it anymore.
first wip ready, though it only goes to the beginning of the minish village, given the annoyance of optimizing paths.
currently 605 frames faster than the test run, despite getting the chest at the start (which put me about 4 seconds behind it initially).
I just started to watch what I thought was your test-run, but discovered you have linked your current wip to the same file... Would you mind putting the testrun up as well?
ask and you shall receive.
No savestates included this time round however. I might have the first dungeon done by later today, depending on how things pan out with my boredom, anime watching/downloading, and regular gaming.
First dungeon complete.
Currently 4608 (wtf?) frames faster than the test run.
Biggest timesavers up until this particular point:
- Taking the leaf back through the waterway
- Getting onto the first leaf before entering the Minish Village
- Smoother barrel movements
- General path optimizations
- Enemy Optimizations
I think that covers it for this wip.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Absolutely beautiful work Atma. I clearly saw the difference compared with your testrun. Loved especially your battle with that miniboss and the final boss where you used that pot to your advantage which should clearly be doable in a speedrun.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
I like it :)
Still I'm wondering.. on your way to the castle (and on other occasions) you pressed left or right to slightly alter your rolling direction. Why didn't you use it here?
going right + slightly up wouldn't hurt, right?
overall a good job avoiding seeds, I'm just curious about this room
the obvious route is to go up first (over the seed-free-zone), then left. What did I miss?
thanks for finding a way to use the faster pot while avoiding the green rupee. That part always bothered me, as it just looked slow to someone who doesn't know about the rupee :)
timing sword slashes to the enemy's recovery time looks good. I'd still slip in one of those auto-fire-attacks somewhere in the run, just for variety. Maybe even between boss-phases to avoid just standing around.
did you already decide how many heart containers to get, and which?
I like it :)
Still I'm wondering.. on your way to the castle (and on other occasions) you pressed left or right to slightly alter your rolling direction. Why didn't you use it here?
going right + slightly up wouldn't hurt, right?
when rolling -off- of seeds, onto a non-seeded area, your rolling distance increases, so it made no difference. I was comparing to when i was able to hit the switch, and this was the fastest way.
overall a good job avoiding seeds, I'm just curious about this room
the obvious route is to go up first (over the seed-free-zone), then left. What did I miss?
Same as above, I would've rolled off the seeds, and overshot the area needed to be at. Also, the enemy moved up and into my way if I did that, which would've slowed me down since I'd have to wait to roll through it, or avoid it.
thanks for finding a way to use the faster pot while avoiding the green rupee. That part always bothered me, as it just looked slow to someone who doesn't know about the rupee :)
Actually, I considered getting that rupee to save time later, since you're forced to get a green rupee anyways in the ice dungeon (there are 5 in an underpass you have to go through), so you can't avoid getting one regardless.
timing sword slashes to the enemy's recovery time looks good. I'd still slip in one of those auto-fire-attacks somewhere in the run, just for variety. Maybe even between boss-phases to avoid just standing around.
did you already decide how many heart containers to get, and which?
I think I'm only going to get 3, but after I rewatch my other run again I might drop it down to 2, getting the first dungeon's/third dungeons containers. Depends on how much damage i take that's avoidable, or where I could take a significant amount of damage to speed things up.
The sword thing I might do at some point, depends on how lazy i get when fighting a boss/enemy. I already used a very short rapid swing to manipulate the rolling enemies that I'm forced to fight into a pattern that worked to my advantage.
next wip will include a savestate at the end of this one, when i decide to make some more progress.
My hate for this game is growing.
Currently 11917 frames faster.
This one goes up to the entrance of melari's mine. Save state included at the end of the first temple.
warning, long blabbering ahead.
the going-out-of-your-way-for-40-rupees still looks taunting to me (although it's mighty cool to use a bomb as a projectile).
I've seen blue rupees (=5) drop from some enemys and even appear under stones. If luck is manipulatable enough to be on your side, you might be able to get your money without sidetracking too much.
Some numbers.
~500 frames to get the red rupee (=20) at the beginning of mount crenel base. -> 25 fpr (frames per rupee ;))
~160-200 frames to kill a monster with 2 hits and grab the drops. More if the monster is slightly out of the way, even more if luck manipulation is bitchy. -> 32-40 fpr
~90 frames to lift a stone, throw it and grab the drops. Add the needed sidetracking to reach the stone and luck manipulation. -> 18 fpr
~100 frames for the first "look! tis be blue rupee!"-message
depending on the victim, a couple of frames to equip your sword.
on the other hand: 1560 frames for visiting the cave, 39 fpr. But, 3 bombs gained and the "look, a bomb!"-message done.
let's say, 8 stones á 100 frames for 5 rupees each, a monster kill for 5 bombs (haven't seen them under stones today, but might be wrong), that's 100 for the drops and 2*100 for the messages, making 1200 frames, being 6 seconds faster.
Substract the frames needed for manipulation and reaching the stones you need. If you can get 8 rupees in a row on the stones in Trilby Highlands that'd be perfect, but from my short test it seems impossible. How does that PRNG work anyway?
ok, so that's *possibly* up to 6 seconds saved for a lot of work in pitting endurance against luck, and redoing or copy/paste/fixing most of the remaining segment. Nothing I'd do myself (not crazy enough and everything), so I don't expect you to even try.
But maybe one day we'll have a bisqbot to do the rupee hunting, so I wanted to write this down.
ok, with that out of the way, some comments on your new segment.
No obvious errors so far (obvious to me, that is). I've been fooling around with this & that for a while, no improvements found. Either your run is good, or I'm not. :)
Equipping your shield at the last moment against the deku scrub, nice one.
Grabbing the elastic mushroom from below made me laugh. ingenious!
I guess that's it for today. I should play ahead and fool around with things to be more useful than saying "yeah, looks good". Can't promise anything though, semester ends and there are some written tests ahead. :/
I like dungeons.
14225 frames infront right now, goes to element get.
I think there'll be at least one thing that surprises you in this dungeon :)
Tub: your input is appreciated, especially since you're the main person who's giving it :P
looks perfect to me. those fights were excellent!
I wonder if it's possible to hit the switch without getting the first key.. nothing I tried worked, that stupid switch is completely unimpressed by anything except direct sword hits. Neither tiger scrolls nor items (boomerang) would help. And I couldn't imagine how to pass through the closed door either.
Oh well, I guess you had your share of fun with that switch too.
I tried to optimize them, or at least make them look good, with the exception of the boss fight because boss fights dont agree with that.
I wonder if it's possible to hit the switch without getting the first key.. nothing I tried worked, that stupid switch is completely unimpressed by anything except direct sword hits. Neither tiger scrolls nor items (boomerang) would help. And I couldn't imagine how to pass through the closed door either.
Oh well, I guess you had your share of fun with that switch too.
Yeah, I tried that in my testrun, and couldn't get a working result so i didn't bother this time around. What I was hoping to get done more was actually the first lava float in one whirlwind, but it just wouldn't work out, since I'd fall into the lava just before landing.
Overall the best parts of this dungeon in my opinion are the 'mid-boss' fight, and the thing you wouldn't have expected me to do (which was not only faster, but also saved a menu entry).
hehe.. you like giving small riddles to check if your viewers still pay attention, hm? ;) first the mention of the "blatant mistake" in your first WIP, now the "unexpected thing".. I didn't name it, so you gave me a hint, how nice of you :) how many hints do I get before you reveal the secret of your bomb-cannon? :p
so, what's next?
get your new sword
go down mt. crenel - is this route faster than the one used in your testrun? I did both in 25% without rerecords and was a few frames faster (though both of my attempts were slower than the optimized part in your testrun)
don't forget to open the town's wind crest someday, either on your way from mt. crenel to the sacred realm, or on your way back there to Castor Wilds.
just slightly entering Castor Wilds is enough to trigger the pegasus boots quest. (and not entering Castor Wilds is not)
open up the path below Lon Lon Ranch this time
Castor Wilds etc.. your testrun-route looked good to me. (except for not cutting that piece of grass down early, but that was mentioned already)
hehe.. you like giving small riddles to check if your viewers still pay attention, hm? ;) first the mention of the "blatant mistake" in your first WIP, now the "unexpected thing".. I didn't name it, so you gave me a hint, how nice of you :) how many hints do I get before you reveal the secret of your bomb-cannon? :p
Bingo, you got it :P I figured I'd give it a shot at least, since it'd be surprising to the viewer, as usually you'd not even bother with the gust jar on most things (except where required). Hell, it got more use in this dungeon than the first (excluding leaf riding), and was handy since it saved at least 90 frames.
so, what's next?
get your new sword
Done, its shiny and white and green.
[*] go down mt. crenel - is this route faster than the one used in your testrun? I did both in 25% without rerecords and was a few frames faster (though both of my attempts were slower than the optimized part in your testrun)
I think I tried that route on my test run, and it turned out being a few frames slower than the way I took. I'm going to try another different route this run to see if its faster again.
[*] don't forget to open the town's wind crest someday, either on your way from mt. crenel to the sacred realm, or on your way back there to Castor Wilds.
I'll test to see which is faster, before or after getting the split ability. Probably after I'd think, but who knows.
[*] just slightly entering Castor Wilds is enough to trigger the pegasus boots quest. (and not entering Castor Wilds is not)
Hmm, thanks for pointing this one out, that'll save about 3-7 seconds I reckon. I just checked and once you enter castor wilds you can just turn around and walk right back out, skipping pointless unrequired text :)
[*] open up the path below Lon Lon Ranch this time
On my todo list.
[*] Castor Wilds etc.. your testrun-route looked good to me. (except for not cutting that piece of grass down early, but that was mentioned already)
[/list]
While it will almost certainly be faster, I'll check it out to make sure. I didn't actually cut it on the test run because all other places where you shrink, the environment around you changes back to an unaltered state (read: grass grows back), so the grass staying gone was unexpected.
I'll probably have the next wip up in about 3 or so days, depending on laziness and other factors.
Hell, it got more use in this dungeon than the first (excluding leaf riding), and was handy since it saved at least 90 frames.
when rewatching I noticed you didn't use it in the second room. Bad angle for shooting, right?
Atma wrote:
I just checked and once you enter castor wilds you can just turn around and walk right back out, skipping pointless unrequired text :)
why exactly did I tell you that just entering is enough? Well, to save you the work of checking yourself. That almost worked out :p
Atma wrote:
I didn't actually cut it on the test run because all other places where you shrink, the environment around you changes back to an unaltered state (read: grass grows back), so the grass staying gone was unexpected.
It does work here, both on (U) and (E) versions. Looks like they specifically allowed this shortcut. probably added a flag to all "shrink portals" whether they reset the environment or not, might be worth keeping an eye open for such shortcuts. No, I don't remember any except for the one mentioned.
going right + slightly up wouldn't hurt, right?
overall a good job avoiding seeds, I'm just curious about this room
the obvious route is to go up first (over the seed-free-zone), then left. What did I miss?
thanks for finding a way to use the faster pot while avoiding the green rupee. That part always bothered me, as it just looked slow to someone who doesn't know about the rupee :)
