Awesome, another double-post! I'm up to 1-5. Here's my progress so far.
Getting the Flower in 1-2 caused the hammer brother to move differently on the map. However, the total squares that he moves before fighting him still remains 5, so I don't think I'm losing time here.
Is it possible to make the hammer brother start on the bottom instead of him jumping up on top of the bricks? I tried this for a while with no success. Also, I still have yet to test getting the leaf in 1-F (or 1-2) and flying to the whistle, so this may or may not be used.
Any questions or comments are welcome!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Looking great!
If I'm not mistaken, you save 1 from on Genisto on 1-1, and another on 1-2...
I also liked how you got to the hammer bros before 1-5... and shooting the star was nice as well (can't remember seeing that before).
However, I make sure that the whistle is definately not faster, just so it won't haunt you for the rest of the run.
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 317
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
Baxter wrote:
Looking great!
If I'm not mistaken, you save 1 from on Genisto on 1-1, and another on 1-2...
I also liked how you got to the hammer bros before 1-5... and shooting the star was nice as well (can't remember seeing that before).
Agreed!
Just test the whistle thing and see wich way is faster.
If I'm not mistaken, you save 1 from on Genisto on 1-1, and another on 1-2...
That's the same comparison I got. However, Genisto could have finished 1-2 earlier, but in his run it is ideal for the hammer brother to move as little as possible, so he delayed it to manipulate that.
Surprisingly, it is 396 frames faster to get the leaf in 1-F and then get the whistle (minus stuff later: minor menu changes, getting hit and getting fire flower) than to wall-glitch to boom-boom.
Method 1: (fire flower) exits fortress on frame 5161
Method 2: (1-F leaf) exits fortress on frame 4767
Method 3: (1-2 leaf) exits fortress on frame 4825 (fortress play is improvable by 12 frames, measuring by Genisto's run)
All three runs (EDIT: now only the last two) can be found where my WIP goes, and that would be here.
For Method 3 to beat Method 2, 1-2 + leaf must be doable (4825 - 4767) - 12 = 46 frames faster, which I highly doubt is possible. Using the goomba to stomp on made it easier to change directions later, and getting the leaf to fall below (to perhaps get it while running instead of jumping) would require jumping on a note block, which makes Mario lose his running steam eventually anyway. The end of the level may be improvable to get super-speed a bit earlier, but I don't see the improvement needed to make it beat Method 2 happening. Plus, with 1-2 changed, I would have 2 star cards now, and that will cause a delay later. So I just went with Method 2. But if anyone has ideas that could improve it, I'm all ears.
I also finished 1-5. I had to take a hit somewhere to lose my leaf, so I picked the beginning of 1-5 to use the getting-hit-invincibility to get super-speed earlier. I think it was my best choice, but I could be missing something. I'll be getting the fire flower on the airship.
This is probably the last WIP I'll have time to do before I leave, so when I don't post or update for a week, don't think I've run away! :)
EDIT: I finished the run through World 1. The link above now includes this file, as well as the 1-2 leaf test.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I suppose editing a post with an update in the run isn't a good idea. *bump*
I finished 1-6 and 1-C. You can find the progress in my signature or in previous posts. I did 1-6 a couple times and got the same frame at the end of the level, so I don't think there are lag issues. On the airship, I gained super-speed so that after defeating the boss, I could jump higher to grab the wand a little faster. This saved 7 or 8 frames altogether.
Also I played back the run with PRG0 for kicks, and so far no desync :)
Let me know if anyone's got any questions or suggestions. I'll be back on the 24th!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
FODA had suggested grabbing the wand directly from a wall jump in order to catch it as high as possible. Did you try that? I see you do a little wall jump but then end up jumping off the ground to catch the wand, so is the problem that there's not enough momentum when bouncing off the wall?
The run looks great so far, nice job! I take it you aren't going to get any fireworks for getting 3 star cards? I hope not because that would cost a lot of time.
Guybrush: "I'm selling these fine leather jackets."
Wally: "Really?"
Guybrush: "No. I 'm lying."
Wally: "In that case, I don't want one!"
Currently working on:
Nothing at the moment.
Walljumping to the wand gives me the height, but having to head to the left from a horizontal velocity of 0 doesn't give me enough height to keep by the time I'm lined up horizontally with the wand, and so it's better to just jump from the ground at super-speed. In some later bosses to airship stages, the ground is higher at parts and I may be able to do more, perhaps grab the wand high enough to skip those seconds when falling.
And I'm not getting any fireworks. I'll also be getting flowers (before the star) instead of mushrooms (after the star) as much as the game allows me to, like I did in 1-2.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Did you make sure it actually saves time to catch the wand high? Because Mario's going to have to fall all the way down anyway... But the falling-down scene is probably on a timer, so if it is, then never mind.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Bag: It is faster to grab the wand higher - I entered World 2 eight frames faster when I was able to jump with super speed.
karlake: Thanks!
Everyone: I haven't forgotten about this run! Worked on most of World 2 tonight. Find it here, or on previous links, or in my signature.
Things I have tested:
It's about 3 seconds faster to die again on the hammer brother instead of getting the music box from him. I don't anticipated 3 seconds saved from an extra music box.
The frames I die on are the earliest frames available to get the hammer brothers to do what they need to do.
Things I haven't tested:
If it's faster to not lose firepower in 2-F.
If it's possible to glitch through the wall on the lower level to get to Boom-Boom. (didn't think of it until after passing the level) Does anyone know if this is possible?
Hit me with any questions, etc.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
If it's possible to glitch through the wall on the lower level to get to Boom-Boom. (didn't think of it until after passing the level) Does anyone know if this is possible?
Do you mean glitching through the wall next to the pipe? It takes you to a large room with a flat ground and walls around you. You cannot walljump over them, there is a ceiling just above the screen.
Cool, thanks Kyrsimys! One less thing to test.
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
Why not?
Even in extreme cases of hammer brother manipuation such as World 2 here, I spent < 50 frames delaying level completion and dying (in total for all of World 2). Using a musicbox takes somewhere around 25-35 frames as well, but saves a minimum of ~40 frames (the length of one hammer brother movement). After seeing what was required to get these hammer brothers to do what I needed, I'm confident that manipulating them into the right spots will not benefit enough from an extra music box that it will save the time required to get it.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I'm going to redo World 2 because Genisto's amazing run (which doesn't go for top speed) kicks my ass in speed in several parts of the first two levels. Much to learn, I have, says Yoda.
Edit: Also, does anyone have any tips on duck-jumping through walls besides "fail over and over"? (my current strategy, hehe)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Also, does anyone have any tips on duck-jumping through walls besides "fail over and over"?
I don't really have a systematic strategy for jumping through walls. I just try to do it over and over from different distances and with different kind of jumps. A good strategy is to turn around while in the air, i.e. entering the wall with your back turned on it. Somehow it's a lot easier to get through with your back turned.
Slight update:
Run redone up to midway through the pyramid. 257 frames faster by the time the pyramid is entered, from savings in the first few levels, and less frames needed for HB manipulation on the two deaths. I'm having a lot of trouble with the duckjump glitch, so I'm giving it a rest for now. That's here.
Also, when manipulating hammer brothers, I realized something - since two will not occupy the same spot, this sometimes causes extra movement in what looks like only one hammer brother. Especially if they pick the same spot over and over.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Also, does anyone have any tips on duck-jumping through walls besides "fail over and over"? (my current strategy, hehe)
You need to have the right speed and jump at the right distance from the wall. Those seem to depend mostly on the height of the wall (i.e. how many frames you need to hold the jump button to get up there). When you want to duck-jump through a wall, I would check to see if its height matches with somewhere the trick was done in an existing movie, because the input required to get through the wall should be identical if they're set up the same. Otherwise it's not unusual for it to take several hundred re-records to get a success. Other random hints: It can help to vary the number of frames you slide on the ground holding the duck button before the jump, moving too fast can make it impossible to get through depending on where you're jumping, and I think it usually won't work if you hit your head on the ceiling/corner before getting to the wall.
Kyrsimys & Nitsuja, thanks for the tips. Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten it in the last 1000 or so tries.
I also found a very small improvement in 1-F, and if this wall keeps denying me glitchdom then I may redo the run from there so that when I get back to where I am now, maybe I can attack this problem with a clear head again. I'm just getting annoyed by this point, but I haven't given up on it just yet.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Hmm, the 3rd wall-jump done in Genisto's currently published SMB3 run goes through with a ceiling that's at exactly the same height as in this situation. The A button was held for 3 frames while running at full speed to get through the wall there. I have no idea why that doesn't work on this wall, though - it looks like you go partway in but get ejected normally. Either there's some pixel alignment problem or there's something about that wall/corner preventing duck-jumps through it.
I can't seem to get through either. I guess this is just the kind of wall that doesn't let you through. I ran into some in Mario Adventure, too. I think it has something to do with the shape of the wall.
I took a look at that spot in the level editor and one strange thing about it is that there are actually two blocks superimposed to make up that wall. Perhaps this forces Mario out with twice as much force, making it a lot harder to duck-jump through it?
I've made an IPS patch that separates out the extra wall so that maybe someone here could test this theory: smb3_pyramidwall.ips
