Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
This topic was brought up in the mario64 thread but i think it should be discussed on a separate thread, as it concerns all n64 games.
The n64 analog stick seems to allow about 63% of it's possible range (because of the plastic around it). And a modded controller would allow 100% on each direction on a real n64.
This causes different effects than the normal range, but, unlike left+right and up+down on older systems, the effects aren't always noticeable. The character may move a little faster and unless you have good knowledge of the game, you won't notice.
So i wonder, should we use more than the n64 normal range?
I think this mainly applies to the diagonals, where normally the range is restricted to a circle so you can't push 100% right + 100% up, but without the plastic ring you could push it that way. I don't think it's really a problem, as games with 3D movement already limit what input they'll accept to well below 63% (or whatever that number is) so it rarely makes a difference. The most difference it's likely to make is that in a game with a 2D cursor controlled menu, you could move the cursor a little faster on the diagonals. (And yes, you could do it on the console, and since the range is a physical restriction of the controller, the exact range depends on which controller you used which means any restriction on it would be somewhat arbitrary.)
I group this in the same category as left+right or up+down, which require modding a controller. And if nitsuja's right, it doesn't really matter anyway. I'll allow it.
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Since programmers knew the limitations of the controller, I'm assuming that most games (especially games by Nintendo) already consider 63% to be the maximum tilt, so hopefully it doesn't make much difference. Normally I would vote "real", but I don't think I care enough to be upset by whatever the final decision is. Still, I think the truest way to make an N64 TAS is with an N64 controller. Adaptoids are great! Otherwise, I assume that most analog controllers will have the same physical limitations, so either approach should work if you want to stay true to the range of tilt offered by a real N64 controller.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
I hope I understand the topic right, but when playing on console it says in the manual that you should NOT tilt the stick before turning on the console, because that could alter the reset state of the stick. I've actuually never tried this myself but if I understood it right it's possible to affect the rate of how much one can tilt the stick on a console, without modifying anything.
Yeah, and pressing a certain button combination, it was L+R+Start iirc, will make the joystick's current position the center. So getting 100% up/right would be possible if you put the joystick in the lower left corner and hit that key combo.
It helps out with DK's ground pound move during the 100 man melee if you want to unlock Falco in SSBM without much effort. <_<
The same thing can be done with GameCube too, I was just providing an example. (X+Y+Start is the GameCube combo, and it also resets the L and R buttons on that.)
are you sure it's completely physical? until someone actually finds a way to modify a nintendo licensed controller so that it has complete 360 range, then i won't be swayed. the reason i say this is because multiple input plugins by default sets the range to 63% "real n64 range."
the start+l+r tilt bias doesn't mean what everyone is saying it does. what it gains in percentage on one end-- it loses on the other end. so if a game was started with say 30% tilt right, it'd lose 30% on the left.
one other thing. it isn't just improvement on diagonals in the sense of between up down left right. it's between the 4 perpendiculars and the 4 diagonals that lose range from 63% to around 55 or 40. in any case, 100% is twice that, and it's very significant.
spezzafer must've modified the default input plugin to 100% instead of 63%, despite his using a non n64 controller, as 100% through plugin modification is possible even with the n64 controller.
Well, since you can use the start + L + R trick on a real control, consider this.
If we slowed down time, then a person should be able to constantly use the start + L + R trick to effectively have 100% (or even more) in direction of joy stick.
Since it is not impossible to do it on a real controler, I don't see any problem doing it on a emulator.
We are in fact using emulators as a tool right? It says so at the top of the main page!
Well, since you can use the start + L + R trick on a real control, consider this.
If we slowed down time, then a person should be able to constantly use the start + L + R trick to effectively have 100% (or even more) in direction of joy stick.
Since it is not impossible to do it on a real controler, I don't see any problem doing it on a emulator.
We are in fact using emulators as a tool right? It says so at the top of the main page!
This is exactly what I was thinking. And, btw, this trick is used often at www.the-elite.net and is known as "cruise control" (of course they don't switch it all the time like you could on emu)... now my question is, could you make the adjustments without losing frames? I hope so, because doing a TAS with constantly having to readjust the stick throughout the run would turn a lot of potential runners off to the N64.
I'm swayed. This isn't the same as Up+Down. Technically you can reach 100% on a real controller by re-centering the joystick. We'll just pretend that that's what you're doing to achieve 100% tilt in TAS runs. Long live technicalities.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
now my question is, could you make the adjustments without losing frames?
Yes - you don't actually need to adjust it yourself when playing on the emulator, that would be annoying/unnecessary - it's just implicit that it would have been done to make the controller send that output. Start + L + R doesn't actually do anything in the emulator because you can already change the output range in the input plugin settings. (And if we can pretend it's possible to hit a button at 30 Hz on a standard controller or move the stick to opposite extremes instantaneously, we can pretend it's possible to recenter it fast enough.)
right, the tilt trick is used on golden eye, perfect dark, smash bros., and some others, but never in the middle of the speed run does the player un tilt using start + l + r, that would pause and lose much more frames, so really, it isn't the same thing.
But since it's uncommon for a game to allow much extra speed, whenever it is possible, I think it should be allowed as "just another dumb thing to exploit".
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
I don't especially *like* it.
I guess if it's usable for some MAJOR glitch it can be used in moderation but I just don't like it. Then agian, I didn't really like left+right either....
How is this remotely any differently than up+down or hitting a,b,a,b on every frame of a movie?
There is physically no way for the buttons of a normal unmodified controller to do that... especially in beat to the frames. TAS is all about input that is impossible to perform on a console.
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Joined: 11/29/2005
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asteron wrote:
How is this remotely any differently than up+down or hitting a,b,a,b on every frame of a movie?
There is physically no way for the buttons of a normal unmodified controller to do that... especially in beat to the frames. TAS is all about input that is impossible to perform on a console.
