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Game & Watch Gallery 3 is a collection of 10 classic Game & Watch games - Egg, Greenhouse, Turtle Bridge, Mario Bros, Donkey Kong Jr, Flagman, Judge, Lion, Spitball Sparky, and Donkey Kong Jr II. The first 5 games also have "Modern" remakes, which retain the spirit of the original games with some slight gameplay differences (and also feature Mario characters)
  • Emulator used: Bizhawk 2.9.1, Gambatte core

Comments

First, I'd like to talk about the category of this run. This is 50 Stars, which is the requirement to see the credits for the first time. Each game and mode gives one star every 200 points, up to a maximum of 5 at 1000 points. It doesn't matter where the stars come from, as long as you get 50 total.
So, the way I determined which games to play was by doing a low-optimized TAS of every game and mode (basically I just played at half-speed and rewound if things didn't go well). After testing every game and mode, I did a more optimized TAS of the slowest game that "made the cut" and the fastest game that didn't. In my initial cut, Greenhouse Classic Hard was the slowest that made the cut, and Donkey Kong Jr Modern Hard was the fastest that didn't make the cut. Upon further testing, Donkey Kong Jr Modern Hard ended up being much faster than Greenhouse Classic Hard, so I'm glad I tested this further.
While doing research for this TAS, I did come across a player named beco who did an RTA run of this category ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx0NGBpRMEE ). Obviously I did my own testing for what is fastest, but they did have one interesting routing decision I would've never thought of myself - They got 2 stars from Flagman A and 3 stars from Judge, splitting up that group of 5 stars between two games. Their reasoning makes sense - most games speed up as they go on, but Flagman A takes longer and longer as it goes on, so they want to minimize the time spent there. However, if I went with that route, I'd have to add in another game to make up for those 5 stars lost (with Donkey Kong Jr Modern Easy). After testing both routes, despite Flagman A taking longer and longer as it goes on, it's still faster than adding in another round of Donkey Kong Jr Modern.

Stage by stage comments

Turtle Bridge - Modern

As you collect coins, the object Toad brings to Peach gets more and more valuable, so up until you're delivering stars, it's always going to be worth it to get all the coins. It's at this point I'd like to bring up my method for determining whether it's worth going out of your way for points. I first time how long a cycle takes if you don't get any coins, uninterrupted, and get a frames-per-point as a baseline from that. Then I time how long a cycle would take while getting all the coins, and figure out the frames-per-point on that. As it turns out, it's very nearly identical getting the coins versus not getting the coins. However, this is short-lived anyway, as now we need to introduce the Peach cycle. Starting after 500 points on Easy and 300 points on Hard, Peach will back away and come back periodically. As it turns out, this cycle almost exactly corresponds to an uninterrupted back-and-forth that gets both sets of coins! So for the most part, I don't really even have to worry about the Peach cycles. The point routing of this game works out in such a way that on the final cycle, you only need 5 coins, and don't need to return to Mario, so I collect all 5 coins before delivering to Peach, and exit out of the game after delivering the final star to Peach. This point routing works out exactly the same for both Easy and Hard.

Egg - Modern

In this game, cookies are rolling down four paths to Yoshi. The cookies will go from uncooked, to cooked, to burned as they get lower and lower. (The way the game recognizes uncooked vs cooked vs burned is simply how far Yoshi's tongue has to extend to eat it. If you eat a "cooked" cookie as early as possible, it will actually still appear visually as uncooked) Uncooked cookies are worth 1 point, cooked cookies are worth 2, and burned cookies are worth 0. Additionally, cooked cookies fill up the corresponding meter at the bottom of the screen, and when those are full, a Yoshi Cookie will appear. If you eat a cooked Yoshi Cookie, it will be worth 10 points, and Yoshi will lay an egg, and after a couple more of them, the eggs will hatch. The baby Yoshi will take up one of the paths and eat cookies for you for a brief time. Baby Yoshi eating cookies are worth 5 points each. So, you'd think optimizing this game comes down to simply eating each cookie as early as possible after it gets cooked. That's most of it, but not entirely. Now's a good time to bring up the speed increase present in this game. Throughout each 100-point section, the speed will slowly increase, and it'll actually slow back down when you cross over the 100-point barrier. So you'll notice when I approach each 100-point barrier, I also try to delay eating those cookies until as late as possible, so that the faster speed lasts as long as possible. There are some times where this isn't always the case, though. For example in the 699-700 point transition on Easy, I had a Yoshi Cookie coming that would push me over 700 points. Since Yoshi Cookies reset the playfield, it's still worth it to go as fast as possible in situations like that.

Donkey Kong Jr - Classic

Ah, this was a fun one! In this game, your speed isn't capped, so you can move as fast as you can mash the D-pad. For this game, everything is cycle-based, based on the swinging key. Any points I'm able to get while still making the same cycle is obviously worth it. Doing a similar frame-per-point analysis, I determined that if you skip a cycle, it's worth it as long as you get 7 points or more from it. Here are the point values you can get: -Jumping over an enemy: 1 point -Dropping the fruit on an enemy on the top row: 3 points -Dropping the fruit on a bird: 5 points -Dropping the fruit on an enemy on the bottom row: 9 points. From this, we can determine that it's worth it to drop the fruit on enemies if it either a) hits a top-row enemy and a bird, or b) hits a bottom-row enemy. Like several other of the Classic games, if you play deathless up to 300 points, all point values are doubled until you take a death. This doesn't change the math for what enemies are worth skipping a cycle to kill, but it's worth noting. This doubling of points surely contributed to why this game was fast enough to make the cut for this run.

Donkey Kong Jr - Modern

I picked Hard because more enemies will spawn, and killing enemies with the fruit are worth 5 points each. Doing a frames-per-point analysis on this game, it's worth it to kill an enemy with the fruit if you go out of your way by 110 frames (a little under 2 seconds) or less. If you kill multiple enemies, the window for it being worth it is even larger. For this game, we finally have to talk about RNG manipulation. I have to heavily manipulate the RNG so that I'm able to weave in between the enemies while slowing down as little as possible, and when playing on Hard, the number of "bad" options heavily outweighs the number of "good" options. Additionally, the only way I was able to figure out to manipulate the RNG in this game is by doing things faster or slower, so essentially, every time I want to manipulate RNG, I need to slow down a little bit. This is probably the biggest point for potential future improvement I see in this TAS. Other than that, this game is fairly straightforward, just get to the end of each of the three screens as quickly as possible, while getting as many points as you can from killing enemies with the fruit.

Judge

After finishing Donkey Kong Jr, the remaining games need to be unlocked from the Gallery Corner. So, I have to go to the Gift section of the Gallery Corner to get Flagman, Judge, and Lion. I will not be playing Lion in this TAS, as it is incredibly slow, it's only unlocked by happenstance. Judge is another seemingly simple game, but optimizing it is another story. Like I said under Donkey Kong Jr, the only way to manipulate RNG in this game is by wasting frames. Now, I'm manipulating RNG for two different things here. First, and more obviously, I want to have the higher number (or have them equal). But also, there are four or five different speeds that each round can go by. The timeloss from the fastest to the second-fastest is 24 frames, so it's very important to manipulate it to get the fastest speed every time too. Because this is so RNG-heavy, this is another game that could potentially have room for improvement in the future if a better way to manipulate RNG is discovered.

Flagman

This game is incredibly simple. For Game A, just remember the pattern they give you and repeat it back. For Game B, hit the number they throw up as quickly as possible. In a TAS, there's not much to say here.

Other comments

And that's it! This was a really fun TAS to work on. A lot went into the routing and optimizing of this TAS, and I hope you enjoy watching it as much as I did making it!

nymx: Claiming for judging.


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InputEvelution
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Was thinking earlier this month about making a TAS of this myself! Very cool, excited to watch.
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Now this is a TAS I've been wanting to see since I first discovered TASing over 10 years ago. Thanks for finally getting one out there and I applaud you for your efforts! This is a game I had from a very young age and I got so into it I even posted many scores on https://cyberscore.me.uk/ So given that I've played and thought about this game a lot, I think there are two routing improvements to be had here. The first actually involves finishing off Donkey Kong Jr. with Modern Easy. This is because once you've earned 5 stars in all four modes for one of the base games, you're awarded an extra 5 stars. And since this TAS already completed three of the Donkey Kong Jr. game modes, that means getting 1000 points in Donkey Kong Jr. Modern Easy effectively awards 10 stars! The second involves getting 99 points in the 2-player Judge mode. Now, I know this one is a bit trickier because you need to set up the Game Boy Link (GBL) functionality in BizHawk, which allows you to TAS in two different GBC's side-by-side. I would think the simplest way to handle this would be to just record identical inputs into both systems until you get to Judge, where the inputs would then diverge for the two GBC's. Unfortunately, I don't think you can simply import this movie into TASstudio when GBL is enabled and then go from there. I think you would have to manually re-enter all the inputs you did in this TAS into both GBC's because the architecture of the input files is different. Now, I was able to get the Game Boy Link functionality to work in BizHawk and can not only confirm that Judge 2P is indeed playable, but you are also rewarded 5 stars when you reach 99 points, as expected. Surprisingly, Judge 2P is even faster than Judge 1P because the characters do not tap their feet before each round for some reason! Here's how I enabled GBL functionality: BizHawk toolbar > Tools > Multi-disk Bundler > set system to GBL > load the Game & Watch Gallery 3 ROM into the bottom two fields. This will create an XML file for G&W Gallery 3 that can be loaded just like any other ROM, and will launch two linked instances of G&W Gallery 3 simultaneously. So now let's talk about alternate routes now that the above has been discussed. Here's how long each of the minigames relevant to this discussion took in the TAS:
  • Donkey Kong Jr. Modern Hard: 6m08s
  • Flagman Game A: 5m55s
  • Egg Modern Easy: 4m37s
  • Turtle Bridge Modern Hard: 3m58s
  • Egg Modern Hard: 3m57s
  • Judge 1P: 2m 43s
Given the times above, it seems like the reroute options would be to either:
  1. Replace Flagman Game A, Egg Modern Easy, and Turtle Bridge Modern Hard (14m30s collectively) with Donkey Kong Jr. Modern Easy and Judge 2P (which may only take about 8m30s if we're lucky) for a potential 6-minute time save! This seems like the best option but is also obviously a lot of effort as much of the TAS would need to be redone due to different RNG.
    • Now, Egg Modern Hard was only 1 second faster than Turtle Bridge Modern Hard in this TAS, so the right game to remove between the two could honestly go either way. However, my gut feeling is that removing Turtle Bridge Modern Hard is the way because this would force different RNG going into Egg Modern Hard. Watching Egg Modern Hard in this TAS, I thought there were a lot more bob-omb spawns than I was expecting and just have a feeling different RNG may present an opportunity to get an even better time there. Maybe your experience in TASing the game lends some different insight
  2. You could also simply replace Donkey Kong Jr. Modern Hard with Judge 2P (might save about 4 minutes?), which would be considerably less effort than the above.
  3. If Judge 2P is found to not be viable for whatever unforeseen issue with the link cable functionality, we can still replace Flagman Game A and Egg Modern Easy (10m32s collectively) with Donkey Kong Jr. Modern Easy, which might also save about 4 minutes.
Hopefully the above was insightful, and that making such an improvement isn't too much work. Regardless, I voted yes here, and would be glad to see this published even if the improvement doesn't happen. Do also let me know if anything I've said is inaccurate. Finally, just some random comments with timestamps from Donkey Kong Jr. Modern Hard I felt were noteworthy: 24:19 Would it have been faster to move to the right first, trigger the coconut, potentially get 15 points, and then proceed to get the key? I've done this maneuver a lot hen playing casually because it feels like the faster play but let me know if your TASing experience has shown different. 26:10 Did not know you could stomp a bullet bill like that if you jump first! 28:12 Did not know you could do that either!
InputEvelution
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Winslinator wrote:
I think there are two routing improvements to be had here. The first actually involves finishing off Donkey Kong Jr. with Modern Easy. This is because once you've earned 5 stars in all four modes for one of the base games, you're awarded an extra 5 stars. And since this TAS already completed three of the Donkey Kong Jr. game modes, that means getting 1000 points in Donkey Kong Jr. Modern Easy effectively awards 10 stars!
Are you sure about this? Checking the save file for my recent playthrough of Game & Watch Gallery 3, I have a total of 100 stars, whereas I should have 105 if this was the case (I got 5 on all modes for Mario Bros). Additionally, this would mean the max stars achievable is 175 instead of 150, which doesn't line up with what I've seen online. (It also makes putting a "Congratulations" screen at 150 rather than 175 a bit strange...)
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InputEvelution wrote:
Are you sure about this? Checking the save file for my recent playthrough of Game & Watch Gallery 3, I have a total of 100 stars, whereas I should have 105 if this was the case (I got 5 on all modes for Mario Bros). Additionally, this would mean the max stars achievable is 175 instead of 150, which doesn't line up with what I've seen online. (It also makes putting a "Congratulations" screen at 150 rather than 175 a bit strange...)
So it looks like InputEvelution was right to call this claim into question. I did some rigorous testing and the 5 extra stars seems to be completely not a thing. I even loaded up PiePusher's movie file and right after Donkey King Jr. Modern Hard finished, I scored 1000 points in Donkey Kong Jr. Modern Easy, ending up with 40 stars... exactly what you would expect if my claim was not true. This is wild because I believed this to be a hard fact for the past 15 years, which is why I was so boldly stating it in the previous post. Now I'm wondering what led me to believe this in the first place? Did I think that just because there was a mere cosmetic addition of 5 stars to the select screen after you get all 20 for a game, that must mean it's also reflected in the actual star count? And I didn't even check my math or anything? It just seems very unlike me to do that. Since I find it very strange that I believed this bizarrely specific fact for so long, I almost wanna say this doesn't rule out that a special condition may exist which triggers counting of the extra stars, so I will strikethrough everything in my previous post having to do with the 5 extra stars claim. Everything else concerning routing changes with 2-Player Judge should still be accurate. One more thing, I actually found references to a similar thing in all three of the walkthroughs below. If you Ctrl+F for "sixth star" or "6th star", you'll find the references. Funnily enough, I don't seem to be the only one who believed beating all four game modes awarded actual bonus stars rather than just cosmetic ones, as it seemed to be an internet rumor around the time these guides were written. https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/gbc/197424-game-and-watch-gallery-3/faqs/34170 https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/gbc/197424-game-and-watch-gallery-3/faqs/6945 https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/gbc/197424-game-and-watch-gallery-3/faqs/6292
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Very interesting ideas! I hadn't even considered Judge 2p, as I didn't know if there was a way to do linked play in a TAS. If that is in fact doable, it'd definitely be better than DK Jr Modern. "24:19 Would it have been faster to move to the right first, trigger the coconut, potentially get 15 points, and then proceed to get the key? I've done this maneuver a lot hen playing casually because it feels like the faster play but let me know if your TASing experience has shown different." There wasnt enough space to get to the fruit first without dying from the goomba. If i tried to climb over the goomba, I'd basically be in the same position as I actually ended up in, but without the key. "26:10 Did not know you could stomp a bullet bill like that if you jump first!" This is a weird one, and i dont fully understand it myself. I got it to happen to the goombas up on the very top of screen 1, too. But only sometimes? I'm not sure how this one happens. "28:12 Did not know you could do that either!" There's only a few frame window to get this, I wouldn't recommend going for it in real time! It's also possible to move sideways or up into a bullet bill and drop a fruit on it at the same time, but that's also only a couple frame window (I forget the exact timings off the top of my head).
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Exciting to see another G&W Gallery game getting an "any%" movie!
Each game and mode gives one star every 200 points, up to a maximum of 5 at 1000 points.
Might be worth noting that Judge and Flagman have different star rewarding thresholds.
nymx
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This game has been giving me fits to judge. I need some clarification though. While watching this speedrun Link to video I noticed that "Egg" is much faster than this TAS. So far, all of the sections that I have reviewed have shown excellent play. On Egg though, something is not making since here. I know there are differences in difficulty, but we are going for 1000 points. I need an explanation on this.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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When it comes to the difficulty, Easy is always going to be far slower than Hard in Egg, simply due to slower pace of gameplay, and cookies spawning in less frequently. When I was doing my initial testing for Egg, eating a cookie a little later didn't seem to make the following cookie spawn any differently, and there's not really anything else you can do to manipulate RNG here, besides waiting on the menu and starting the game on a later frame. The two biggest factors that can affect speed are Mini Yoshis eating cookies, and Bob-ombs: 1. Mini Yoshis will eat up to 4 cookies for 5 points each, then walk offscreen. But, if a 5th (or more) cookie spawns in that row before it gets all the way offscreen, it'll also eat that one as well, which, since they give 5 points per cookie instead of 2, would be ideal, and make things go just that little bit faster. 2. I don't really understand how Bob-omb RNG works, but they are worth avoiding if possible. Nothing else will spawn in while a Bob-omb is coming down. In my TAS, I got one near the beginning of Easy, and three in a row near the end of Hard. The Bob-ombs (especially the three in a row on Hard) are probably the biggest place I lost time in Egg. However, like I said above, I didn't really know of any way to impact the RNG to avoid Bob-ombs or optimize Mini Yoshis. I agree upon reviewing it that there's potential time to save there, but going back and redoing it at this point would require redoing all of DK Jr, which was really the big RNG portion of the run. The only thing I can think of to try is to replay the entire Egg section while wasting a couple frames on the menu beforehand, and hoping that that playthrough is faster. But then, like I said, I'd also have to go through all of DK Jr and the games after as well, and DK Jr took more time/effort than the rest of the TAS combined.
Post subject: Egg improvement
RetroEdit
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I have an idea for reducing the number of bob-omb spawns in Egg Modern, but it crucially depends on whether recreating the RNG necessary for the rest of the movie to sync is possible. I'll make a follow-up edit to this post in a few hours about my findings.
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RetroEdit wrote:
I have an idea for reducing the number of bob-omb spawns in Egg Modern, but it crucially depends on whether recreating the RNG necessary for the rest of the movie to sync is possible. I'll make a follow-up edit to this post in a few hours about my findings.
This would be nice if you could come up with something. If you have any ideas for RNG manip in DK Jr Modern too, that'd be pretty huge! Dropping fruit on enemies (especially 2 or 3 at a time) is far more efficient than running through the screen normally, so if there's some better way to manipulate that so I'm always able to hit the maximum number of enemies every cycle, there's probably significant timesave to be had there. Not that I necessarily expect that'll be easy/possible to find, but it'd be nice to get a second set of eyes on it.
nymx
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PiePusher11 wrote:
I agree upon reviewing it that there's potential time to save there, but going back and redoing it at this point would require redoing all of DK Jr, which was really the big RNG portion of the run. The only thing I can think of to try is to replay the entire Egg section while wasting a couple frames on the menu beforehand, and hoping that that playthrough is faster. But then, like I said, I'd also have to go through all of DK Jr and the games after as well, and DK Jr took more time/effort than the rest of the TAS combined.
I understand that TASing can be extremely difficult for these situations. The issue is, when checking segements of a game...they must beat all know records in order to be accepted. I don't want to diminish what you have done, because I have seen outstanding work on other parts. This Egg segment would be called into question by others judges and we want to have that fixed before proceeding. So if you want, we can set this TAS to "Delayed" and await your response. If you agree to this, we can allow a month before we talk of other options.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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I think we can go ahead and cancel this submission. Me and Retroedit are going to work together on a better run.
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PiePusher11 wrote:
RetroEdit wrote:
I have an idea for reducing the number of bob-omb spawns in Egg Modern, but it crucially depends on whether recreating the RNG necessary for the rest of the movie to sync is possible. I'll make a follow-up edit to this post in a few hours about my findings.
This would be nice if you could come up with something. If you have any ideas for RNG manip in DK Jr Modern too, that'd be pretty huge! Dropping fruit on enemies (especially 2 or 3 at a time) is far more efficient than running through the screen normally, so if there's some better way to manipulate that so I'm always able to hit the maximum number of enemies every cycle, there's probably significant timesave to be had there. Not that I necessarily expect that'll be easy/possible to find, but it'd be nice to get a second set of eyes on it.
If you two are cancelling this submission and will be redoing Egg, now would be a good opportunity to set up a GBL movie file to also implement the time save available with Judge 2P. However, I would like to apologize as I once again stated something a little misleading in my original post. When originally calculating the time spent on each minigame, I was merely taking the difference in timestamp between the start of each game and the next, not the start of each game and when 5 stars were attained. This is wrong, as it includes time spent menuing, and in the case of DK Jr. Modern Hard, it included all the time spent in the Gallery Corner as well! In reality, DK Jr. Modern Hard took 5m54s to complete and Flagman Game A took 5m52s; they are actually very close in duration, and shows that a better understanding of RNG in DK Jr. Modern Hard could easily push that to be the faster minigame overall. However, viewing these minigames as fixed 5-star blocks to swap out in place of Judge 2P is also not the right way of looking at this problem either. As PiePusher mentioned in their original submission notes, one RTA runner split up a block of 5 stars by gaining 2 stars from Flagman Game A and 3 stars from another game, which is genius. Should we do the same here? Well here's a breakdown of how long it took to get each star for both minigames: Flagman Game A:
  • 1st star: 0:19
  • 2nd star: 0:45
  • 3rd star: 1:11
  • 4th star: 1:36
  • 5th star: 2:01
  • Total (menuing removed): 5:52
Donkey Kong Jr. Modern Hard:
  • 1st star: 1:17
  • 2nd star: 1:13
  • 3rd star: 1:13
  • 4th star: 1:05
  • 5th star: 1:06
  • Total (menuing removed): 5:54
Based on the above, it would seem that the best option is to get 3 stars from Flagman Game A and 2 stars from DK Jr. Modern Hard. But once again, better RNG in DK Jr. Modern Hard could easily tip the scale to make 2 stars in Flagman Game A and 3 stars in DK Jr. Modern Hard the optimal route. The key will be whether or not the 3rd star in DK Jr. Modern Hard can be collected in under 1:11! I looked at unintended consequences of this routing change as well and there doesn't appear to be any. In the above route, we would be entering the Gallery Corner with 32-33 stars instead of 35. This is OK as you only need 30 stars to unlock Lion. This is important because Peach's dialogue in the Gift building is shorter when presenting Lion versus Judge; something to be mindful of which is easy to overlook when considering routing changes.
RetroEdit
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Splitting stars between games is an interesting thought and probably worth pursuing. There is an additional cost to adding an extra game of having to menu into an extra game, but PiePusher11 confirms it's still probably faster to split stars to avoid the slow later stars in Flagman in a 2p movie. I'm still not sure if I want to do a 2p movie, but I'm definitely considering it. I was able to port over the current movie to the 2p movie and sync all the way up to the Judge. As far as menuing goes, I found another interesting wrinkle: I was able to create a new movie that finishes the game and saves ~108 frames by soft-resetting to enter Gallery Corner. I also independently discovered that Peach's cutscene length varies, so I think entering Gallery Corner at the end is probably the fastest in this TAS. RNG manipulation is also something to consider in menu routing, but it's difficult to know exactly how significant it is for each game without more research.