Posted: 5/20/2018 10:50 PM
Post subject: One Must Fall 2097
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2436)
Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 414
DS TAS of 2022 Computer TASer of 2016 Computer TAS of 2016 Computer TASer of 2013 Computer TAS of 2013
I've been looking into doing One Must Fall 2097, which works now that the DOS extender crap has been figured out. If you're not familiar with it, it's a highly customizable fighting game with giant robots. The problem with the amount of customizability is that it's tough to nail down a good standard for how to set it up. I'm looking for feedback on a few things. The only reference I have is the speedrun.com page, in which they've recently taken interest in the game and set up some standards (some I agree with, some I don't) * Game speed: I think I have this one about figured out, but feedback is welcome anyway. OMF2097 is highly influenced by CPU speed - just go into DOSBox and play around with cycles to see how extreme it is. I did a test run at the default CPU divider and found it to be a little too fast for my liking. The speedrun community has a standard of 14500 cycles in DOSBox, which seems to be a good watching speed. I used a DOS benchmarking utility in DOSBox with their configuration and then fiddled with the CPU divider in JPC-rr until I matched the DOSBox benchmark. The game now runs at about the same speed as the other speedruns, but if you have a different opinion on this let me know. * Difficulty: The community uses Champion difficulty, which is the highest you can set it without codes. However, there are button combinations that can unlock higher difficulties. The submission rules say that this is allowed so I'm leaning towards doing the highest unlockable difficulty. * Number of rounds: The community uses the "best of 3" format. I think that's kind of arbitrary, other than being the default setting. Since this is a speedrun I think it makes sense to just do one round per fight. * Nova: Nova is an uber-robot that would obviously be the fastest robot to use, but it's only unlockable via a code in the selection screen. I'm leaning towards not using this, at least not in a standard any% run. * Advanced options: There is a special options screen that you can access either through a command line parameter or via a code in the main menu. I don't know if this is permissible or not, it would be nice to have a judge weigh in on this. If it's allowed, there are a few settings in here that would shorten fights, such as lowering everyone's vitality and allowing for some damage to pass through blocks. These settings are designed to not cheapen the game too much (for example, vitality can only be set as low as 80%, not 1% or something stupid), but I still don't know if tinkering with the game parameters like this would be allowed. So you can see there's a lot to think about. Any feedback would be appreciated, even from people who have never played this game before.
Posted: 5/20/2018 11:14 PM
Post subject: Re: One Must Fall 2097
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
slamo wrote:
* Game speed
I see no reason why we should be done what others are doing. We should think what makes sense for JPC and our viewers want to see.
slamo wrote:
* Difficulty
Use the highest possible.
slamo wrote:
* Number of rounds
I agree with 1, unless higher rounds can show off great content not seen with 1.
slamo wrote:
* Nova
We can have a run with and a run without.
slamo wrote:
* Advanced options: There is a special options screen that you can access either through a command line parameter or via a code in the main menu. I don't know if this is permissible or not, it would be nice to have a judge weigh in on this.
It's allowed!
We allow playing unlockable content using in-game passwords Using in-game codes[1] or passwords at the start of a game is allowed if it makes the game harder or if it makes cosmetic changes to the game, as long as parts of the game are not skipped. Using in-game codes or passwords at the start of a game to unlock a special game mode, character, level sets, or otherwise play the game in some unusual way is allowed. However movies of this nature are not considered to be one of the primary branches for the game. [1] When we speak about codes that are part of a game that we allow for use in certain scenarios, we are talking about passwords that can be entered in a menu, pressing some buttons on the title screen, passing execution parameters or setting environment variables for DOS games, or anything of a similar nature. This excludes things like Game Genie codes or emulator cheating tools.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 5/21/2018 1:25 AM
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Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4044
Is a symmetrical effect (both players die faster) considered to 'make the game harder'?
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 5/21/2018 1:35 AM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2436)
Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 414
DS TAS of 2022 Computer TASer of 2016 Computer TAS of 2016 Computer TASer of 2013 Computer TAS of 2013
Well, here's my test encodes of the two CPU speeds I tried. (ignore the artifacts, they don't show up in the emulator) Default CPU divider: Link to video Higher CPU divider: Link to video I think the second one is more watchable and is closer to how I remember playing the game, personally.
Patashu wrote:
Is a symmetrical effect (both players die faster) considered to 'make the game harder'?
I would say this is a lateral move in terms of difficulty, since it applies to both players.
Posted: 5/21/2018 3:17 AM
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c-square
Active player (378)
Joined: 9/25/2011
Posts: 652
Speedy TAS of 2015
If you're gunning for moons, which I think a good TAS of this game would achieve, then the slower speed (higher divider) is certainly more watchable. I agree with Nach, absolutely use the highest difficulty. One round is great, and the first submission shouldn't use Nova. You can use it in a follow up to show how different it is. The Advanced Options question is difficult to answer. The right answer, IMO, is whatever would make it more entertaining. Looking forward to your TAS, slamo. This game is a great pick for one.
Posted: 5/22/2018 10:27 AM
Post subject: Re: One Must Fall 2097
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Radiant
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
We have a standard for game speed for DOS games, which is 20 MHz if the game's speed is only limited by the CPU speed. If this results in an unwatchably fast movie, I suppose we add an encoding at lower speed than the actual run. Difficulty should clearly be the highest, including the hidden extra difficulties. I agree with one round per match, even for a playaround this should give plenty of opportunities. You should probably include the Fire and Ice battles, and maybe the BIG and REIN codes. Hyper Mode should clearly be enabled (as this is the default for any serious player of the game); I'm hesitant about the Advanced options, the game can get seriously weird if you e.g. set throw range to zero. I don't see 80% or 100% health making a big difference, anyway. For story mode, using Nova strikes me as a cheat code, as does editing the stats of your character. $.02
Indie game developer
Posted: 5/22/2018 7:23 PM
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slamo
Reviewer, Expert player (2436)
Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 414
DS TAS of 2022 Computer TASer of 2016 Computer TAS of 2016 Computer TASer of 2013 Computer TAS of 2013
I should have been clearer about this, but my primary goal is not to create a playaround, but rather finishing one player mode as fast as possible. This might not square with my desire to increase the CPU divider, but I feel like increasing the CPU speed is a superfluous way to save time (there is precedence for this, as increasing CPU speed lowers loading times in other games) and the lower speed will not only make the run more watchable, but it will also make the TASing process less tedious. I also feel like the speedrun goal will still be entertaining. The combination of the difficulty, the AI randomness, and the robot variety should make each battle fairly different and not just spamming the same move over and over again. I want to thank everyone that's given feedback so far. Here are the options I want to go with: * Fight mode - Hyper: Like Radiant said, this should obviously be enabled since it improves the special moves. * CPU - Ultimate: There was a pretty strong consensus on this, so the highest difficulty will be unlocked. * One round per fight: For a speedrun this seems like a no-brainer. Since I have the blessing of Nach I want to go all out with the advanced options. Here's what I'm thinking, I'm not overly familiar with fighting games, so let me know if any of these are stupid: * Rehit mode ON: This lets you juggle enemies in the air, as long as you keep hitting them with different moves. Should be fun to have on. * Throw range 0%: I'm not sure about this one. My guess is that disabling throws will make the fights faster since they take up more time. I might change this one after testing. * Jump height 80%: Minimizing the jump height should give more time to hit the opponent? * Hit pause 0: Removes any slowdown during hits or blocks, should definitely be set to zero. * Vitality 80%: Will minimize the amount of health the opponent has. * Knock down NONE: Will cause knockdowns after certain hits. Probably don't want this. * Block damage 35%: Lets you cause damage through blocks, this should help if the AI is being stubbornly defensive.
Posted: 5/22/2018 7:32 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Bear in mind if you set all kinds of special unusual modes, we cannot accept the game to the Vault. Since special options target Moons, we need to confirm with the audience whether they think a certain setting will be more entertaining than other settings.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.