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dwangoAC wrote:
- GC Super Monkey Ball with console verification via replay files (already confirmed working on two setups)
Saw this run on HRDQ and although it's extremely impressive, each level goes by so quickly that there's no time to understand what just happened before the next level is upon you. Unlike Kaizo above, there's no down time to process and appreciate what's going on, so after a while it just feels like you're getting bombarded with input. I think what would make it better is if the full replay of every level could be shown so the audience gets a second look at the tricks, however that would go against the spirit of the speedrun, and may cause desyncs requiring the whole run to be done over...[/quote]
There's a couple of *big* differences worth noting here - first, that was SMBall2 and this is SMBall1 so it's not the same game but more importantly is the fact that at HRDQ we were using Dolphin and playing back in an emulator whereas for AGDQ 2018 we'll be playing back on a real console using in-game replay files, moving from one replay file to another. Heck, I'm going to pitch it as alternate categories based on your feedback - straight through run with no stops, all levels but allowing the replay on each level to loop to fully provide commentary, and selected levels of interest with in-depth commentary while omitting boring filler levels. Note that because we're using the replay method we don't have to wait for the exit animation to complete so in some ways this method will actually be faster than a complete playthrough, although loading times may end up being longer.
c-square wrote:
dwangoAC wrote:
- Atari 2600 Dragster with recent console verification (it may not be accepted but we've been told we absolutely must submit it)
Meh. It's neat, but not something I'd think is very GDQ entertaining (unless there's some big history I don't know about). But if we absolutely must submit it, then I guess we have no choice?
Well, we technically have a choice but no, not on this one. :) Trust me, it'll be worth it even if it isn't accepted.
c-square wrote:
dwangoAC wrote:
- Door #5. Please help define what this is, because there are too many good options.
I've already voiced my candidate and reasons for Door #5. It'd be a shame to hold back such a great run indefinitely. However, in lieu of that choice, Family Feud is always good for generating laughs. :)
I think the run you suggested was [3358] GBC Pokémon: Yellow Version "arbitrary code execution" by MrWint in 05:48.28 but unfortunately we have no ability to console verify that and that's the only way at all that it would likely be accepted. I actually agree with you that it's a very impressive run but that will have to wait until we have better accuracy. Family Feud also does not sync even after many hours of testing and, uh, the two runs of it we have now are both wildly inappropriate for a GDQ event. We have to be above reproach and the content we have now from the two movies we have is downright offensive to a large subsection of our audience, not to mention many members of the site.
Sorry to shoot you down on both of your suggestions but feel free to keep them coming!
straight through run with no stops, all levels but allowing the replay on each level to loop to fully provide commentary, and selected levels of interest with in-depth commentary while omitting boring filler levels.
That will be great! Every time I've watched a Monkey Ball run, I've had to back up the video and replay it several times just to figure out what the heck happened, so I'm really looking forward to the commentary!
dwangoAC wrote:
Sorry to shoot you down on both of your suggestions but feel free to keep them coming!
No worries, I appreciate your honesty, and I'd definitely not want a run that would shed a poor light on the community.
It looks like my edit to my last post came too late, so I'll post it here:
I wrote:
Okay, I just finished watching through the first 30 stars of N64 Super Mario 64 (USA) "70 stars, no BLJ" and was once again floored by all the amazing tricks that are pulled off in that run. In spite of its length, that has got to be a main contender IMO for Door #5.
What do you think? I know some people think BLJ is cheap or overused, so this would be an opportunity to show what a TAS can do in the game without it.
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c-square wrote:
I wrote:
Okay, I just finished watching through the first 30 stars of N64 Super Mario 64 (USA) "70 stars, no BLJ" and was once again floored by all the amazing tricks that are pulled off in that run. In spite of its length, that has got to be a main contender IMO for Door #5.
What do you think? I know some people think BLJ is cheap or overused, so this would be an opportunity to show what a TAS can do in the game without it.
I'm not opposed to showing something like that at perhaps SGDQ 2018 if we opt to attend but I think we have to give M64 a rest in general (for the same reasons I'm recommending passing up DS Mario 64) - we just did a quasi Mario 64 run at AGDQ 2017 and I think we should wait before pitching it again. Still, it truly is one of the more amazing runs and it blows me away every how much effort went into it.
So I'll use this reply to say we've discussed it in #tasbot and we're going with F-Zero X. It rounds out the rest of the selections the best and while we can't currently guarantee console verification it's at least possible and the committee can make a decision on the game's merits itself.
I'm drafting the Super Monkey Ball submission text now and link_7777 is working on Dragseter; we'll post our submission text here before I submit.
Okay, I just finished watching through the first 30 stars of N64 Super Mario 64 (USA) "70 stars, no BLJ" and was once again floored by all the amazing tricks that are pulled off in that run. In spite of its length, that has got to be a main contender IMO for Door #5.
The 70 stars BLJless TAS is pretty old now, no point of submitting it IMO. The revision of the game, SM64DS, has always been poorly considered because of the controls and the fact that it doesn't have BLJ and that the fastest move is only longjump. But with all the speed tricks and glitches used in the recently published TAS (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lSpryL2VpIA) and the fact that more people were interested in SM64DS (in fact, even some people we didn't even know before helped contributing by looking through the game and figuring out how some of the tricks work). SM64DS offers its own entertainment that has been pointed out by a lot of the people who watched the TAS, but it has also used very technical and hard tricks (even though they're simple enough for people to understand them) to achieve it. In fact, that's why I think it should be great to have SM64DS in 8:12.93 as the 5th submission.
- Atari 2600 Dragster with recent console verification (it may not be accepted but we've been told we absolutely must submit it)
Meh. It's neat, but not something I'd think is very GDQ entertaining (unless there's some big history I don't know about).
The history is that some guy got a WR on the game (I think it was in the 80's) which seemed impossible, but got accepted, and it turns out that it indeed appears to be impossible, meaning that he possibly defrauded people with a fake record (possibly with doctored video footage of some sort). The controversy is that it's still an open question whether he really did get the record (due to, perhaps, some unique hardware glitch), or whether he was a fraudster.
I can't really say if that story would make good GDQ material.
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Below is the draft submission text for SMBall1:
Game name: TASBot plays Super Monkey Ball
Description: Super Monkey Ball by byrz and CyclopsDragon is nonstop action. The viewer response to SMBall2 at HRDQ was very good and this run is highly rated. What stands out here is the ability to perform console verification using the game's built-in replay system, a first for disc-based systems. This run can be shown in different ways - straight through showing all levels with no pauses, showing all levels but looping interesting levels to provide additional commentary, or showing select levels with in-depth commentary.
Game Console: GC
Category 1 name: All levels
Category 1 estimate: 12:55
Category 1 video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PufPH99SxLU
Category 2 name: All levels, looped replay commentary
Category 2 estimate: 20:00
Category 2 video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PufPH99SxLU
Category 3 name: Select levels, in-depth looped replay commentary
Category 3 estimate: 10:00
Category 3 video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PufPH99SxLU
I'm planning to submit a TAS trick review again, I'll probably try to submit tomorrow, but here is the submission text I've come up with. I'll note that the video is one I made prior to submitting it for SGDQ 2017. Some have expressed the opinion that this would be much better off as a snippet in between runs rather than its own block, and I allude to that in the submission.
TAS Trick Review
Speedrun commentary often includes phrases such as "one frame trick" or "pixel perfect". One of the biggest questions people have is if speedrunners know the difficult of the tricks in advance or if they are just guessing. If they do know the difficulty of the trick, people also wonder how they know. TAS tools can be used to showcase how speedrunners identified these details in NES runs seen earlier in the marathon. This trick review will demonstrate the skill of the runners as well as the value of TAS tools to RTA speedrunning. This information may also be presented as a set of shorter segments after completed runs rather than a featured block.https://www.twitch.tv/videos/128014995
Guess that was a bit too long. here is a more condensed version:
Speedrun commentary often includes phrases such as "one frame trick" or "pixel perfect". People question if speedrunners really know the difficulty of a trick or not, and how they could find out. TAS tools can be used to showcase how to identify these details in NES runs from earlier in the marathon. This trick review will demonstrate both the runners skill as well as the value of TAS tools to speedrunning. Note that this review may work better in between runs rather than as a featured block.
I have created the following submission text for Dragster. This is preliminary, so changes can be made until dwango submits it, presumably tomorrow.
Dragster
Atari 2600
This drag race simulation is currently the subject of a heated debate (http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php?t=175364). This video: https://youtu.be/9vuVYo4TXns analyzes the world record set in 1982 and and questions the validity of the record setting run. This quasi-documentary sparked renewed interest in this 1980 Activision title. Omnigamer's Tool Assisted Speedrun (https://youtu.be/_y1VBIvx2u8) finishes with an in-game time of 5.57 and can be verified on console.
https://youtu.be/oXMxZbPzRzs
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dwangoAC wrote:
Door #5. Please help define what this is, because there are too many good options.
Is it not over yet? MORTAL KOMBAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Given that Omni and another have recently achieved 5.57 on emulator, I get that Dragster is a bit of a meme but console verifying it doesn't really mean as much anymore.
Check this out: A human SMW ACE submission! And he's looking for an opponent.
I bet a TASBot 11 Exit vs. Human ACE would be very well received. People there would be especially excited if the Human beat TASBot for once (gotta give them something to celebrate, eh?).
Description: Super Monkey Ball by byrz and CyclopsDragon is nonstop action. The viewer response to SMBall2 at HRDQ was very good and this run is highly rated. What stands out here is the ability to perform console verification using the game's built-in replay system, a first for disc-based systems. This run can be shown in different ways - straight through showing all levels with no pauses, showing all levels but looping interesting levels to provide additional commentary, or showing select levels with in-depth commentary.
Very well done. I'd make a couple slight changes as follows, but nothing critical.
Description: Super Monkey Ball by byrz and CyclopsDragon is nonstop action. The viewer response to SMBall2 at HRDQ was very good and this run is highly rated. What stands out is our ability to perform console verification using the game's built-in replay system, a first for disc-based systems. This run can be shown in one of several ways. 1:Straight through showing all levels with no pauses. 2:All levels but replaying interesting levels to provide additional commentary. 3:Select levels with in-depth commentary.
Though i'm not so sure about that numbered list part.
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The lineup from oldest to newest is locked in - Atari 2600 Dragster, SNES DKC2, F-Zero X, GC Super Monkey Ball, and SNES Kaizo Mario World 3. As of tonight we now have reliable-enough-to-be-comfortable console verifications on all of them except F-Zero which I lack the cart for. We still need someone to write up descriptions using the format in the above posts for F-Zero X, Kaizo, and DKC2. The DKC2 video is in my past videos / the stream I just finished, the rest are from the poll. I'm exhausted and need to get sleep urgently so I'm holding off from snagging links.
I'm done doing verifications, tomorrow is just tweaking submissions and then actually making them. Thanks to everyone who provided support through this process!
I'm a little worried about Dragster becoming something of a black eye for TASbot if not handled tactfully. I trust the TASbot team to do so, but just wanted to voice some concern, as a lot could happen between now and January.
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Alyosha wrote:
I'm a little worried about Dragster becoming something of a black eye for TASbot if not handled tactfully. I trust the TASbot team to do so, but just wanted to voice some concern, as a lot could happen between now and January.
This is a reasonable concern. I believe we can do so, in part because our goal is to highlight the achievement of the human runners who have reached perfection. It is not possible to breach the 5.57 barrier through human or bot skills, but it is very challenging for a human to beat the game in any marathon setting. TASBot can do so handily, albeit right now we don't have a clean way to start so even TASBot takes a dozen tries or so at the moment. I may tweak the submission based on your feedback, but that will happen later tonight.
I am very busy with work today and would welcome anyone who has time and wants to draft a submission from the list above in the format above to do so. Thanks!
I'm not sure how it would be accepted, but apparently it's possible to TAS with a actual wiiu using homebrew:
Thread #19525: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess HD
It's only for zelda games for now, but just posting this here if there's any ideas on using this in the future.
Game Name
F-Zero X
Run Description
F-Zero as a rule is fast. F-Zero X Follows that rule. This F-Zero X TAS redefines that rule. It also throws out a few other rules. Through glitching collision, extreme speed, checkpoint abuse, and ignoring physics, the "Jack Cup, Time Trial" TAS turns F-Zero into more of a flight simulator than a racing game.
Game Console
N64
Category Name
Jack Cup, Time Trial TAS by jagg2zero
Category Estimate
7:09.37
Category Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZcSQy5qwQo
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Below is the draft submission text for DKC2:
Game name: Donkey Kong Country 2 shenanigans
Description: DKC2 is a well-loved classic, and we've figured out a way to complete it in a much faster time than it's ever been beaten before. But why stop there when we can go further.. so much further. This run will feature at least one surprise worthy of TASBot's storied history.
Game Console: SNES
Category 1 name: DKC2 by p4plus2, Masterjun, and total
Category 1 estimate: 5:00
Category 1 video: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/176104694
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With a lot of help from dedicated viewers on my Twitch channel I was able to submit all 5 of the aforementioned runs to the stie. They will not become visible until the committee reviews them for content, which could take a couple of days. I'll be sure to update this thread as soon as anything happens. For the next couple of days, I'm taking a few (in my opinion, well-earned) days off. Thanks to everyone who helped out!
Check this out: A human SMW ACE submission! And he's looking for an opponent.
I bet a TASBot 11 Exit vs. Human ACE would be very well received. People there would be especially excited if the Human beat TASBot for once (gotta give them something to celebrate, eh?).
It strikes me that this could be billed as "a human using a TASbot-style route, versus TASbot using a human route". When you put it that way, it can be very uncertain as to who is faster and might well lead to a close ending.
EDIT: Even better: "To make this fair, TASbot's going to use the human route [pause] and the human's going to use TASbot's route".
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The TAS block submissions are now visible at https://gamesdonequick.com/submission/all by filtering on dwangoAC - link_7777 also made a few submissions you can filter on.
The list of accepted runs will be posted on October 10th, so stay tuned!
We have to consider that they have a huge catalog of things to select among and time is highly valuable, so while all submissions may have been good, there might just have been better things to pick from in their eyes. Not that I would agree with them, though.
Accepted: -nothing-
Accepted (as a Bonus): Monkey Ball "all levels"
Rejected: Donkey Kong Country 2, F-Zero X "Jack Cup", Dragster, Kaizo 3.
WHAT?!? I have trouble believing they completely cut out the TASBlock. I mean, I understand taking a break for SGDQ, but TASBot has been a staple event for years at AGDQ. Wow... I'm just at a loss for words.
